Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Spies Like Us: Italy convicts CIA operatives
Cyber Nations Forums > Cyber Nations Community Structure > The Water Cooler > The Boiler Room
Pages: 1, 2
Flatlander
QUOTE
Americans convicted of abducting suspect

The Italian judge's finding was directed against the CIA's extraordinary-renditions program.

By Maria De Cristofaro and Sebastian Rotella, Los Angeles Times

ROME - An Italian judge convicted 23 Americans yesterday of kidnapping an Egyptian cleric off the streets of Milan in 2003, a sweeping verdict against one of the CIA's most valued antiterrorism tools - the practice known as extraordinary rendition.

The decision was a victory for Italian antiterrorism prosecutors and police who spent six years building a massive case. The two-year trial exposed details of a secretive world and was the first anywhere to challenge the program under which the CIA abducted suspects and spirited them to third countries for interrogation.

A clandestine team of U.S. and Italian operatives abducted Abu Omar, an extremist cleric suspected of recruiting fighters for Iraq and Afghanistan, and he was flown to Egypt, where he claimed to have undergone months of torture and abuse.

The case sparked international uproar, and the governments of Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi and his predecessor tried repeatedly to scuttle the trial.

Judge Oscar Magi acquitted three other Americans, including the former CIA station chief in Italy, because they had diplomatic immunity. Magi also set aside charges against five Italian intelligence officials including the former chief and deputy chief of Italy's spy agency, ruling they were protected by a state-secrets law. But he convicted two other Italians.

The Americans were tried in absentia. Given that the U.S. government has declined to cooperate with the prosecution, it seemed unlikely that any would spend time in an Italian prison. However, the convicted Americans may be at risk if they travel to Europe. Prosecutors have issued arrest warrants that can be executed in any of the European Union's 27 countries.

The judge issued an eight-year prison sentence for Robert Seldon Lady, the former CIA chief in Milan. Testimony indicated that Lady initially opposed abducting Abu Omar as unnecessary and dangerous but ultimately became the ground-level architect of the operation. The other U.S. operatives were given five-year sentences, and the Italians received three-year terms.

With the help of Lady, Italian police had already been investigating Omar. But Lady was alleged to have orchestrated the kidnapping without their knowledge. The operation on the streets of a close ally caused bad blood among U.S. and Italian antiterrorism officials and within antiterrorism agencies in both countries, according to testimony.

Italian intelligence officials testified that the station chief in Rome, Jeff Castelli, and other officials pushed for the rendition, possibly hoping to recruit Abu Omar as an informant. The CIA deployed a paramilitary squad, aided by Italian operatives, that stalked Abu Omar for weeks before snatching him.

In a wiretapped phone call to his wife and later in public statements, the Egyptian alleged that his country's security forces had tortured him and locked him in a rat-infested cell. Egyptian authorities eventually released him, but they did not allow him to return to Italy to testify.

Probably because they had clearance from Italian spymasters, the U.S. operatives left a trail of cell-phone calls, credit-card charges, and photo-identification documents. The evidence enabled an elite antiterrorism unit of the Italian police to assemble a detailed case that became an anatomy of a rendition.

"The Milan court sent a powerful message: The CIA can't just abduct people off the streets," said Joanne Mariner, terrorism program director at Human Rights Watch. "It's illegal, unacceptable, and unjustified."

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us/20...ng_suspect.html

Yeah, bad enough that our 'war on terror' ended up being an assault on the rule of law and due process and just handed the bad guys a huge P.R. win .... but basically these guys were easily convicted because, as spies, they really really SUCKED.
Renolds
they only had to conceal themselves from their suspects no reason to hide from their perceived allies.
Kenadian_2006
This is a good thing, in my opinion.
Flatlander
QUOTE (Renolds @ Nov 5 2009, 12:08 PM) *
they only had to conceal themselves from their suspects no reason to hide from their perceived allies.

These guys couldn't keep a recipe secret.
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Renolds @ Nov 5 2009, 04:08 PM) *
they only had to conceal themselves from their suspects no reason to hide from their perceived allies.


The same allies who screwed the French in Afghanistan by cutting secret deals with the Taliban? No thanks.

I'm pleased the Americans weren't within this judge's jurisdiction at the time of the trial. Otherwise, I'd be pissed off enough to be writing letters and making phone calls to get them back on American soil by any means necessary.
Buckshorn
Face it what were spy's from America doing in Italy? doesn't Italy have adequate secret services any more or is this another attempt by America to police the world?

Face it they deserved it they were the stupid dumb-arsed people who got caught.
Flatlander
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 12:28 PM) *
Face it what were spy's from America doing in Italy?

Ignoring the rule of law, as their executive branch directed them to do.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Face it what were spy's from America doing in Italy? doesn't Italy have adequate secret services any more or is this another attempt by America to police the world?

Face it they deserved it they were the stupid dumb-arsed people who got caught.



If you don't think every country with an intelligence agency worth a darn, isn't in every other major country, you are fooling yourself.

We catch Israeli spies in America and we are close allies.
Buckshorn
Wow mate you catch Israeli spy's well done.

You also shoot british soldiers who are on your side.
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:33 PM) *
Wow mate you catch Israeli spy's well done.

You also shoot british soldiers who are on your side.


Which of Britain's allies are you claiming has been knowingly and intentionally shooting British soldiers? And what evidence of this do you have?
SoxNation
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 03:33 PM) *
Wow mate you catch Israeli spy's well done.

You also shoot british soldiers who are on your side.



friendly fire accidents have happened since war first began. You act as if its on purpose. Someone obviously has a bone to pick.
Buckshorn
Evidence of Friendly fire

There's my evidence mate and yes it is from a decent news source. Face it you shot some British troops whether by mistake or not it does not matter.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 03:40 PM) *
Evidence of Friendly fire

There's my evidence mate and yes it is from a decent news source. Face it you shot some British troops whether by mistake or not it does not matter.



seriously, what is your point here, what is the relevancy to the OP?
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:40 PM) *
Evidence of Friendly fire

There's my evidence mate and yes it is from a decent news source. Face it you shot some British troops whether by mistake or not it does not matter.


We shoot and bomb our own troops by mistake sometimes too. Whether it's by mistake does matter. Please show me a single war in history where a friendly fire accident did not happen. It's not a parade; it's a war. Stuff happens in war; bad stuff. And thank God it does. If wars weren't terrible things with terrible costs, we'd have them far more often. War is Hell and with any luck, it always will be.
Buckshorn
Fact is no-one gives a !@#$ when things happen to people from countries like Britain and Italy. Whereas if it was Americans there is !@#$ loads of trails and investigations.

Loki Ire
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:43 PM) *
Fact is no-one gives a !@#$ when things happen to people from countries like Britain and Italy. Whereas if it was Americans there is !@#$ loads of trails and investigations.


It does happen to Americans; all the time. The name Pat Tillman ring a bell?

And whenever a friendly fire incident happens, there's always an investigation. Why? Because if you're bombing or shooting friendlies from other countries, you could just as easily be bombing or shooting at friendlies from your own.

You have an unrealistic understanding of what happens in a war zone. Time to read up a bit. War is not "Call of Duty" or any other video game. War happens in real life.
Flatlander
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 5 2009, 12:46 PM) *
And whenever a friendly fire incident happens, there's always an investigation.

And since you mentioned Tillman, it's also worth noting that often when a friendly fire incident happens, there's an attempt at a cover-up.

Which is usually handled about as competently as renditions in Italy, apparently.
Buckshorn
Yeah too right war happens in real life just like America has the best military technology in the world and yet they still $%&@ up I think the saying is "All the gear no idea". Also in my country there is another saying and it is very true and can apply to the modern American military.

"When the Germans shoot, the allies take cover but when the Americans shoot everyone takes cover"
SoxNation
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 03:52 PM) *
Yeah too right war happens in real life just like America has the best military technology in the world and yet they still $%&@ up I think the saying is "All the gear no idea". Also in my country there is another saying and it is very true and can apply to the modern American military.

"When the Germans shoot, the allies take cover but when the Americans shoot everyone takes cover"



Ok you hate America, got anything else to contribute?
Buckshorn
Did I actually state in any of my comments that i hate America?

No I was using the power of free speech I have got my point across. That's all I wanted to say i do not hate America or Americans.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 5 2009, 03:24 PM) *
The same allies who screwed the French in Afghanistan by cutting secret deals with the Taliban? No thanks.

I'm pleased the Americans weren't within this judge's jurisdiction at the time of the trial. Otherwise, I'd be pissed off enough to be writing letters and making phone calls to get them back on American soil by any means necessary.


Yea, god forbid a country prosecute people who fragrantly violate its laws. As a libertarian I would think you would welcome prosecution of people who pull !@#$ like this.
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:57 PM) *
Did I actually state in any of my comments that i hate America?

No I was using the power of free speech I have got my point across. That's all I wanted to say i do not hate America or Americans.


No, you just said Americans are stupid and that their military sucks a few different ways; including one way which brought the wrath of the word filter down upon you. Certainly nothing to indicate you dislike America or Americans...

QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Nov 5 2009, 04:57 PM) *
Yea, god forbid a country prosecute people who fragrantly violate its laws. As a libertarian I would think you would welcome prosecution of people who pull !@#$ like this.


They were American agents doing the will of the President and they did nothing to any citizens of Italy. As such, Italy can go stuff.

If they'd destroyed Italian property or done something to a citizen of Italy on Italian soil, it'd be a whole different story.

Let me put it this way, if Italian intelligence officers operating in the US abducted an Egyption terrorist off the streets of Miami and flew him to Syria for question, I'd be perfectly fine with it.
Buckshorn
Nah mate your twisting my words, maybe i should have explained it better.

The agents were dumb for getting caught and i simply put the point across that america has the best military technology in the world and somehow they still commit friendly fire. i used no "hate" words i expressed my opinion as is my right!
Flatlander
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 5 2009, 01:06 PM) *
Let me put it this way, if Italian intelligence officers operating in the US abducted an Egyption terrorist off the streets of Miami and flew him to Syria for question, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

... and if it turned out that skipping all that icky 'due process' stuff led them to abducting and torturing your innocent cousin by mistake, how would you feel about it?
Eagare the Alenthin
This is fine with me. Italy isn't America, so American spies, regardless of their intentions, must abide by the rulings of Italian law. Due process exists for a reason.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 5 2009, 04:06 PM) *
They were American agents doing the will of the President and they did nothing to any citizens of Italy. As such, Italy can go stuff.

If they'd destroyed Italian property or done something to a citizen of Italy on Italian soil, it'd be a whole different story.

Let me put it this way, if Italian intelligence officers operating in the US abducted an Egyption terrorist off the streets of Miami and flew him to Syria for question, I'd be perfectly fine with it.


First, what in the hell does what the president's will have to do with the legality of it? Absolutely nothing. The president has less legal importance in Italy than an average Italian citizen. And they did do something to Italian citizens, they violated Italian sovereignty on Italian soil. They committed crimes against their nation, and have been prosecuted as such. Your position comes down to "We're American so $%&@ you guys." Needless to say, that's one piss-poor argument. Wanna try again or are you going to concede you have absolutely no ground to stand on? And you call yourself a libertarian.
Eagare the Alenthin
QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Nov 5 2009, 10:28 PM) *
First, what in the hell does what the president's will have to do with the legality of it? Absolutely nothing. The president has less legal importance in Italy than an average Italian citizen. And they did do something to Italian citizens, they violated Italian sovereignty on Italian soil. They committed crimes against their nation, and have been prosecuted as such. Your position comes down to "We're American so $%&@ you guys." Needless to say, that's one piss-poor argument. Wanna try again or are you going to concede you have absolutely no ground to stand on? And you call yourself a libertarian.

But Kenadian, sometimes you have to ignore the law like Batman!
MaGneT
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 03:52 PM) *
Yeah too right war happens in real life just like America has the best military technology in the world and yet they still $%&@ up I think the saying is "All the gear no idea". Also in my country there is another saying and it is very true and can apply to the modern American military.

"When the Germans shoot, the allies take cover but when the Americans shoot everyone takes cover"

QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:10 PM) *
Nah mate your twisting my words, maybe i should have explained it better.

The agents were dumb for getting caught and i simply put the point across that america has the best military technology in the world and somehow they still commit friendly fire. i used no "hate" words i expressed my opinion as is my right!

Ummm. Yes, America has the best military technology in the world.
No, America has not yet invented an ally-detecting bullet that disintegrates when it comes within 10 feet of friendly.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (Eagare the Alenthin @ Nov 5 2009, 04:30 PM) *
But Kenadian, sometimes you have to ignore the law like Batman!

Well, in honesty, some laws should be ignored. But this isn't one of those cases.
Buckshorn
QUOTE (MaGneT @ Nov 5 2009, 09:34 PM) *
Ummm. Yes, America has the best military technology in the world.
No, America has not yet invented an ally-detecting bullet that disintegrates when it comes within 10 feet of friendly.


I just had to laugh at your attempt of looking good
Aeternos Astramora
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:10 PM) *
Nah mate your twisting my words, maybe i should have explained it better.

The agents were dumb for getting caught and i simply put the point across that america has the best military technology in the world and somehow they still commit friendly fire. i used no "hate" words i expressed my opinion as is my right!

If this was in any way relevant to the discussion, then I wouldn't say that you despise America, but it is irrelevant.

And I don't normally say, "You hate America," but damn, when it's obvious...
flak attack
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 04:36 PM) *
I just had to laugh at your attempt of looking good

I have to laugh at the fact that you think he's wrong. The fact is, once the shooting starts, people screw up. Radios get hit, GPS systems get knocked out, enemies try to look like friendly positions, someone ends up where they aren't supposed to be, people panic. Americans, Brits, French, Somalians, Chinese or Russian, sometimes you're going to hit the wrong guy. You can take steps to minimize the chance, but you can't totally avoid it, especially with the number of times guns are fired.
Ecthelion
Just ignore the boy, he'll go away when he realizes he's being ignored.

Any way,

I agree with Kenadian that they violated Italian sovereignty.

At the very least, if you're going to be snooping around in someones front yard, atleast do it discreetly and don't get caught.
Foggers
They were operating with Italians as well, so one would assume their is some kind of agreement between the two governments for this kind of operation. But I guess not.
Lord GVChamp
What is this "Italy" you speak of?
Asriel Belacqua
QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 01:57 PM) *
Did I actually state in any of my comments that i hate America?

No I was using the power of free speech I have got my point across. That's all I wanted to say i do not hate America or Americans.


I'm afraid I didn't see a single point in any of your posts. Pretty much just a bunch of crap.

QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 02:10 PM) *
Nah mate your twisting my words, maybe i should have explained it better.

The agents were dumb for getting caught and i simply put the point across that america has the best military technology in the world and somehow they still commit friendly fire. i used no "hate" words i expressed my opinion as is my right!


Sure, agents were dumb for getting caught. I can agree, however, EVERY SINGLE DAMN COUNTRY, when in a war, commits friendly fire, it sucks, but so does war. So shove this crap about Americans doing it up somewhere whether the sun doesn't shine because your country (unless you own your own island) has, at one time or another, done it as well, and if they're in a war right now, has probably done it recently.

QUOTE (Buckshorn @ Nov 5 2009, 02:36 PM) *
I just had to laugh at your attempt of looking good


I just had to laugh at your attempt at making a point.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (Foggers @ Nov 5 2009, 05:12 PM) *
They were operating with Italians as well, so one would assume their is some kind of agreement between the two governments for this kind of operation. But I guess not.


Just because Italians also took part doesn't mean it was legal. If it wasn't illegal, they wouldn't have been prosecuted.
Eagare the Alenthin
QUOTE (Lord GVChamp @ Nov 5 2009, 11:20 PM) *
What is this "Italy" you speak of?

It's a boot filled with fast cars and food.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (Eagare the Alenthin @ Nov 5 2009, 05:29 PM) *
It's a boot filled with fast cars and food.


Lots of hairy people too.
Lord GVChamp
QUOTE (Eagare the Alenthin @ Nov 5 2009, 04:29 PM) *
It's a boot filled with fast cars and food.

Well, I can make one of those in my basement.

I own an Italy! happy.gif
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Flatlander @ Nov 5 2009, 05:14 PM) *
... and if it turned out that skipping all that icky 'due process' stuff led them to abducting and torturing your innocent cousin by mistake, how would you feel about it?


My cousin an American citizen? Or my cousin an Egyption citizen? If he's an American, then they screwed up and need to go down for abducting an American citizen. If he's Egyption, it'd be up to the government of Egypt to protest the whole affair. Foreign agents carrying out operations against foreign citizens isn't really a concern to me. Whether it's Americans operating in Italy or Italians operating in the US, if they find someone there from a foreign country and want to seize them, go for it. I really don't care.

QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Nov 5 2009, 05:28 PM) *
First, what in the hell does what the president's will have to do with the legality of it? Absolutely nothing. The president has less legal importance in Italy than an average Italian citizen. And they did do something to Italian citizens, they violated Italian sovereignty on Italian soil. They committed crimes against their nation, and have been prosecuted as such. Your position comes down to "We're American so $%&@ you guys." Needless to say, that's one piss-poor argument. Wanna try again or are you going to concede you have absolutely no ground to stand on? And you call yourself a libertarian.


If these agents acted without authority, then they're not doing their jobs; they've gone rogue and need to be punished.

And you're willfully and knowingly misrepresenting my position. How do I know this? Because I provided an example where the situation was completely reversed and an Egyption citizen was being taken from American soil by Italian agents. In that example, I said I was, again, fine with it.

So let me know when you're done outright fabricating a lie about what my position is.

QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Nov 5 2009, 06:28 PM) *
Just because Italians also took part doesn't mean it was legal. If it wasn't illegal, they wouldn't have been prosecuted.


That's dangerously close to "if you weren't guilty, they wouldn't have arrested you!". I hope you're not on a jury any time soon.
Flatlander
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 5 2009, 03:31 PM) *
My cousin an American citizen? Or my cousin an Egyption citizen? If he's an American, then they screwed up and need to go down for abducting an American citizen. If he's Egyption, it'd be up to the government of Egypt to protest the whole affair. Foreign agents carrying out operations against foreign citizens isn't really a concern to me. Whether it's Americans operating in Italy or Italians operating in the US, if they find someone there from a foreign country and want to seize them, go for it. I really don't care.

Your cousin the anywhere citizen that was legally in the U.S. and abducted without due process by foreign agents on U.S. soil.
Lord GVChamp
QUOTE (Flatlander @ Nov 5 2009, 05:33 PM) *
Your cousin the anywhere citizen that was legally in the U.S. and abducted without due process by foreign agents on U.S. soil.

Go blame your government for approving the operation.

Stabbing your allies in the back, while the traditional Italian thing to do, is pretty bad form.
Vladimir
It is an odd interpretation of laws (and morality) that only apply to citizens and not foreign citizens in your territory. Am I now allowed to abduct the Polish guy living downstairs and chain him up in my kitchen to do the dishes?
steodonn
It happened in Italy so they have the right to to be pissed off. Someone was legally in Italy so they are under Italian law so Italy is pretty much in the right

As someone said you would think the USA had some agreement going with Italy before this. I guess not witch makes the USA just as bad allies and Italy

And to Buckshorn: I am the last one to defend America but friendly fire happens and no matter how good tech gets it will still happen
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Vladimir @ Nov 5 2009, 07:39 PM) *
It is an odd interpretation of laws (and morality) that only apply to citizens and not foreign citizens in your territory. Am I now allowed to abduct the Polish guy living downstairs and chain him up in my kitchen to do the dishes?


Are you an agent of a recognized government acting under orders from that government and is it legal to chain a person up to do dishes within whatever jurisdiction your kitchen is in?
Vladimir
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Nov 6 2009, 12:06 AM) *
Are you an agent of a recognized government acting under orders from that government and is it legal to chain a person up to do dishes within whatever jurisdiction your kitchen is in?

Is it legal to break the law because I have a badge (and it is illegal to abduct someone off the street and deport them to another country for torture)? Is it an excuse that I'm 'only acting under orders'?
Bob Janova
This is really excellent. You can't just go into another country and abduct people, whether you're a spy or not. The CIA thinks it owns the world, and I'm very glad that Italy have told them they don't.
Loki Ire
QUOTE (Vladimir @ Nov 5 2009, 08:09 PM) *
Is it legal to break the law because I have a badge (and it is illegal to abduct someone off the street and deport them to another country for torture)? Is it an excuse that I'm 'only acting under orders'?


It is not legal to break the law because you have a badge, but I would challenge that removal of a foreign citizen from any nation's soil - especially under cooperation with the country from which the person is being removed - is no great deal. Want the protections afforded by citizenship? Stay where you are a citizen. When you enter a foreign country, expect less protection. I wouldn't expect Italy to go to bat for me if Egyption intelligence operative removed me from their soil, but I would fully expect the US government to raise Hell on my behalf.

Acting under orders is never an excuse, but it would certainly be a requirement for any actions taken by an intelligence operative to be proper. Regardless of local legality, taking action against orders as an intelligence operative needs to be punished.
PrinceCaspian
QUOTE (Vladimir @ Nov 6 2009, 12:09 AM) *
Is it legal to break the law because I have a badge (and it is illegal to abduct someone off the street and deport them to another country for torture)? Is it an excuse that I'm 'only acting under orders'?


Legality? To the CIA, these laws do not exist, or in the very least do not matter.

Laws only matter to those who respect government or to those who are forced to.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.