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anenu
I don't see this anywere else and i know some people will be interested so.

QUOTE
A French court has convicted the Church of Scientology of fraud, but stopped short of banning the group from operating in France.
Two branches of the group's operations and several of its leaders in France have been fined.
The case came after complaints from two women, one of whom said she was manipulated into paying more than 20,000 euros (£18,100) in the 1990s.
A Scientology spokesman told the BBC the verdict was "all bark and no bite".
France regards Scientology as a sect, not a religion.
Prosecutors had asked for the group's French operations to be dissolved and more heavily fined, but a legal loophole prevented any ban.
Instead, a Paris judge ordered the Church's Celebrity Centre and a bookshop to pay a 600,000-euro fine.
Alain Rosenberg, the group's head in France, was handed a two-year suspended jail sentence and fined 30,000 euros.
Three other leading members of the group were also fined.
Ban 'still possible'
Unlike the US, France has always refused to recognise Scientology as a religion, arguing that it is a purely commercial operation designed to make as much money as it can at the expense of often vulnerable victims, the BBC's Emma Jane Kirby reports from Paris.


Religious freedom is in danger in this country
Eric Roux
French Celebrity Centre spokesman
Over the past 10 years, France has taken several individual members of the group to court on charges of fraud and misleading publicity, but this is the first time the organisation itself has been charged, she says.
Tommy Davis, spokesman for the Church of Scientology International, told BBC News that the court had acted "in total violation of the European Convention on Human Rights and French constitutional guarantees on freedom".
The case "fell flat on its face", he said.
"The fines will get thrown out on appeal. We've had similar cases before and in other countries. If it has to go to the court of human rights we're confident we will win there."
Speaking by phone from the US, he said it was a "political gesture" against the organisation, but "Scientology will continue to grow in France".
The Church of Scientology was founded in 1954 by the late science fiction writer L Ron Hubbard, and includes Hollywood stars such as John Travolta and Tom Cruise.
Manipulation claims
In the case leading up to Tuesday's ruling, a woman said she was sold expensive life-improvement courses, vitamins and other products after taking a personality test.
A second woman alleges she was fired by her Scientologist boss after refusing to undergo testing and sign up to courses.
The organisation denied that any mental manipulation took place.
The court was unable to impose a ban because of a legal amendment that was passed just before the trial began, preventing the banning of an organisation convicted of fraud.
However, that amendment has now been changed.
"It is very regrettable that the law quietly changed before the trial," Georges Fenech, the head of the Inter-ministerial Unit to Monitor and Fight Cults, told French TV.
"The system has now been put in place by parliament and it is certain that in the future, if new offences are committed, a ban could eventually be pronounced," he said.
A lawyer defending Scientology's operations in France said there would be an appeal.
Eric Roux, a spokesman for the Celebrity Centre, urged France to recognise Scientology's "legality".
"Religious freedom is in danger in this country," he said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8327569.stm


Personally i think this is great as Scientology is one of the worst religions/sects out their and is basically a business. I find it coincidental that the law happened to be changed right before the trial but at least they changed it back (i believe)

Anyway discuss.
Rebel Virginia
Yup, individual liberty is at stake. If people want to be a part of this, it is their choice. The government has no right to get involved, regardless of how much better it thinks it knows than all of us.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 12:59 PM) *
Yup, individual liberty is at stake. If people want to be a part of this, it is their choice. The government has no right to get involved, regardless of how much better it thinks it knows than all of us.



Even if they prey on the poor, the addicted, the mental unstable, and take hundreds of thousands of dollars from them?

Also what of religious status, should they get it?
Thorgrum
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 05:09 PM) *
Even if they prey on the poor, the addicted, the mental unstable, and take hundreds of thousands of dollars from them?


Well are we going into this assuming everyone is a vicitim straight away? I mean the women in the article didnt seem to fall out of the mainstream of "mental unstable". I mean we arent talking about a large swath of litigants here Sox, its 2 women they have a ways to go before they get to the Jim and tammy faye baker level.

SoxNation
QUOTE (Thorgrum @ Oct 27 2009, 01:13 PM) *
Well are we going into this assuming everyone is a vicitim straight away? I mean the women in the article didnt seem to fall out of the mainstream of "mental unstable". I mean we arent talking about a large swath of litigants here Sox, its 2 women they have a ways to go before they get to the Jim and tammy faye baker level.



Yes I consider anyone involved in scientology a victim. I have some experience with them and have studied it quite heavily.

They use basically torture and mental games to practically brainwash people.
Thorgrum
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 05:28 PM) *
Yes I consider anyone involved in scientology a victim. I have some experience with them and have studied it quite heavily.

They use basically torture and mental games to practically brainwash people.


I'm find more and more your posts are starting to get very dramatic with absolutes like above. Now anyone with Veritek in thier forum prescence is cool with me but proclomations of "torture" are pretty serious. If you have studied them heavily I will defer to you on it as I havent, however I am a big believer in personal responsibility and not everyone is a victim.

Some people still have free will even if its been made easy for them to transfer thier personal choices onto other entities, like this case.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Thorgrum @ Oct 27 2009, 01:36 PM) *
I'm find more and more your posts are starting to get very dramatic with absolutes like above. Now anyone with Veritek in thier forum prescence is cool with me but proclomations of "torture" are pretty serious. If you have studied them heavily I will defer to you on it as I havent, however I am a big believer in personal responsibility and not everyone is a victim.

Some people still have free will even if its been made easy for them to transfer thier personal choices onto other entities, like this case.



I believe in personal responsibility as well. But when an organization seeks those of weak minds, they are told this is a self-help program that will help them fix whatever is wrong in their life and then through many hour "audits" they are mentally worn down.

Here are some of their techniques

http://www.xenu.net/archive/techniques/

i'd highly recommend reading a lot on xenu.net, its very eye-opening.

Some may write off a lot of the anti CoS stuff as crap, or lies, but I can personally verify some of the information due to me actually knowing someone I found information on the web about. My former boss wrote an affidavit in the 80's or early 90's about scientology, how they had scammed him his wife, how they had harmed people who weren't "behaving", how he saw them physically drag someone back into the building.

Yet he still worked for them in 2005 when i worked for him. Scientology gets a grip on people, first through their minds if possible, if not through blackmail.

just read as much as you can, you'd be much less likely to claim personal responsibility.

CoS is a violent, criminal cult, that acts often like the Mafia.
Rebel Virginia
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 01:09 PM) *
Even if they prey on the poor, the addicted, the mental unstable, and take hundreds of thousands of dollars from them?

Also what of religious status, should they get it?

The government has no business recognizing religions. Also, how is Scientology different than any other faith, or some businesses for that matter? That's just life, that's how it is. Nothing can be done about it. Just accept it for what it is.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 01:48 PM) *
The government has no business recognizing religions. Also, how is Scientology different than any other faith, or some businesses for that matter? That's just life, that's how it is. Nothing can be done about it. Just accept it for what it is.



Blackmailing, hypnosis, mind control, sleep deprivation, murder, fraud, physical harm?

Just like all religions and business, sure.
Tyler DurdenCC
If it's a religion - people have freedom of religion
If it's a business - people can pay for what they want

However, if they are unethical or using illegal / shady means, then it definitely should be looked into. From what I have read, they seem to prey on the vulnerable and desperate.


Edit: I can't spell worth a damn.
Rebel Virginia
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 01:50 PM) *
Blackmailing, hypnosis, mind control, sleep deprivation, murder, fraud, physical harm?

Just like all religions and business, sure.

Sure, they are worse, but people are paying for it. If you don't like it, rally a group of citizens and take them out. People seem to forget that power ultimately rests with the people.
Tyler DurdenCC
More info on Scientology:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104274

happy.gif
Lamuella
this thread went in a very different direction than I thought it would. I was certain that 11 replies in it would have degenerated into the usual "well, christianity's just as bad" trollfest. Thanks for proving me wrong, boiler room.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 01:55 PM) *
Sure, they are worse, but people are paying for it. If you don't like it, rally a group of citizens and take them out. People seem to forget that power ultimately rests with the people.



Isn't that what government inherently is? A group of citizens banding together. I'm not talking about what its become, and what its used for, but its inherent purpose.

I see no reason that government should not regulate Scientology from committing illegal acts such as fraud, murder, and assault
Tyler DurdenCC
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 02:14 PM) *
Isn't that what government inherently is? A group of citizens banding together. I'm not talking about what its become, and what its used for, but its inherent purpose.

I see no reason that government should not regulate Scientology from committing illegal acts such as fraud, murder, and assault


There's freedom to practice whatever religion you want, but not if the acts of that religion are illegal.
Rebel Virginia
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 02:14 PM) *
Isn't that what government inherently is? A group of citizens banding together. I'm not talking about what its become, and what its used for, but its inherent purpose.

I see no reason that government should not regulate Scientology from committing illegal acts such as fraud, murder, and assault

No, government exists for the sole purpose of taking away the rights of individuals. As for murder, fraud, and assault....all crimes. Try and convict those who commit them. If they are taking orders from the leaders, try them for conspiracy and the crimes. Same thing we did with the mob. Although honestly I'd prefer the government getting out the justice system altogether. Leave it to the citizens to get the job done.
SoxNation
my former bosses affidavit.

http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/affidavi..._tom_wright.txt
Arcturus Jefferson
QUOTE (Lamuella @ Oct 27 2009, 02:11 PM) *
this thread went in a very different direction than I thought it would. I was certain that 11 replies in it would have degenerated into the usual "well, christianity's just as bad" trollfest. Thanks for proving me wrong, boiler room.

Give it some time, Lam.

As to the issue at hand, I think part of the reason this is happening in France is it's history as a notably secular nation. Along the same lines as the whole headscarves controversy.
SoxNation
QUOTE (Tyler DurdenCC @ Oct 27 2009, 02:17 PM) *
There's freedom to practice whatever religion you want, but not if the acts of that religion are illegal.



Fine,


I hereby found the church of Jonathan. The belief of our church is that I am a God and that all people must support my life and make me as wealthy as possible.

i want religious status and all donations to me are now tax deductible.

See it doesn't just work like that.
Tyler DurdenCC
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 02:21 PM) *
Although honestly I'd prefer the government getting out the justice system altogether. Leave it to the citizens to get the job done.


Please explain. Are you for the privatization of criminal punishment or for vigilante justice? Other?


QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 02:23 PM) *
Fine,


I hereby found the church of Jonathan. The belief of our church is that I am a God and that all people must support my life and make me as wealthy as possible.

i want religious status and all donations to me are now tax deductible.

See it doesn't just work like that.



I was agreeing with you there. I was trying to say, just because it's part of a religion, doesn't make fraud, etc. legal.
Lamuella
QUOTE (SoxNation @ Oct 27 2009, 02:22 PM) *


Interestingly, I used to be on very friendly terms with the guys who run that site (David Rice and his brother Frederick). Nice to see they're keeping the home fires burning.
Hertzy Scowicz
QUOTE (Tyler DurdenCC @ Oct 27 2009, 07:53 PM) *
If it's a religion - people have freedom of religion
If it's a business - people can pay for what they want

However, if they are unethical or using illegal / shady means, then it definitely should be looked into. From what I have read, they seem to prey on the vulnerable and desperate.


Edit: I can't spell worth a damn.


The thing is, their first marketing pitch is that they'll improve your quality of life, when in fact they'll take all your money. Then they trot out this other bunch of courses you need to take to cleanse some of you thetans and then your life will be better, when in fact all that will do is put you up to your knees in debt. This is a textbook bait and switch, and certainly counts as fraudulent advertisement.

After the aforementioned courses crash your credit rating, you'll be contractually obliged to take even more courses, these ones supposedly giving you honest-to-xenu superpowers. Also, you'll be required to work for CoS to pay for the courses, and can pretty much forget about minimum wages, overtime pay and OSHA or equivalents.

Oh and you're right that they do prey on the vulnerable and desperate just as any other cult.

So yeah, being unethical and using illegal/shady means is pretty much their MO.

Ninjaedit: I actually found a source about the work conditions; http://exscientologykids.com/astra2.html
Lamuella
it's also definitely arguable that, as the Church Of Scientology makes frequent claims about what their techniques will do for people's health, that you could build a case that they are practicing medicine without a license.
Ivan V
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 09:59 AM) *
Yup, individual liberty is at stake. If people want to be a part of this, it is their choice. The government has no right to get involved, regardless of how much better it thinks it knows than all of us.


The government has no right to get invovled in any religion?

Well, when the CoS broke into US government offices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White), it kind of makes this idea moot. The government of any nation has all rights to get involved in action against CoS when they threaten the government with such actions, not to mention the lone citizen who might be hounded by them under the Fair Game policy (that form of harassment in itself is a crime that requires government involvement).
Ricardo
QUOTE (Rebel Virginia @ Oct 27 2009, 12:48 PM) *
The government has no business recognizing religions. Also, how is Scientology different than any other faith, or some businesses for that matter? That's just life, that's how it is. Nothing can be done about it. Just accept it for what it is.


In that religions don't charge you thousands of dollars and businesses pay taxes.
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