Isildur
Oct 21 2009, 08:53 PM
4 page article, I recommend reading the whole thing, I only quoted the first paragraph and then choice snippets.
I tried to approach it with an open mind and figure out any way that someone could support the reasoning, but sorry I just couldn't do twist the mind through the mental gymnastics necessary to come close.
Maybe someone in the peanut gallery here can explain it to me in simple terms.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/o...o_feature&#QUOTE
Voters in this small city decided overwhelmingly last year to do away with the party affiliation of candidates in local elections, but the Obama administration recently overruled the electorate and decided that equal rights for black voters cannot be achieved without the
Democratic Party....
Justice Department spokesman Alejandro Miyar denied that the decision was intended to help the Democratic Party. He said the ruling was based on "what the facts are in a particular jurisdiction" and how it affects blacks' ability to elect the candidates they favor...
The measure appeared to have broad support among both white and black voters, as it won a majority in seven of the city's nine black-majority voting precincts and both of its white-majority precincts.
"Removing the partisan cue in municipal elections will, in all likelihood, eliminate the single factor that allows black candidates to be elected to office," Loretta King, who at the time was the acting head of the Justice Department's civil rights division, wrote in a letter to the city.
Ms. King wrote that voters in Kinston vote more along racial than party lines and without the potential for voting a straight Democratic ticket, "the limited remaining support from white voters for a black Democratic candidate will diminish even more."
Ms. King's letter in the Kinston case states that because of the low turnout black voters must be "viewed as a minority for analytical purposes," and that "minority turnout is relevant" to determining whether the Justice Department should be allowed a change to election protocol
Your thoughts?
-Wolverine-
Oct 21 2009, 09:24 PM
I think its great to remove the party affiliation from before the candidates name on the ballots. An inability to vote for a canadate without the little letter before their name is truly pathetic beyond word.s
As for the racial issue, its obviously racism. If white voters voted for candidates because there were white, Jessie Jackson would kill them all. But it seems to be okay when minorities vote for skin color instead of a candidate's beliefs. It be the left's polarization on reason if anything.
Loki Ire
Oct 21 2009, 09:27 PM
I've suggested removing party affiliation from national election ballots here previously and was met with the same ridiculous accusations of disenfranchisement (though nobody made the truly absurd claim that it was racist).
-Wolverine-
Oct 21 2009, 09:36 PM
I don't understand how it would lead to disenfranchisement. All that would happen is that voters would not be able to lazily vote down a party line without actually knowing who they are voting for. Voting would require more time and energy, and fewer clueless people would be at the polls.
Loki Ire
Oct 21 2009, 09:39 PM
QUOTE (-Wolverine- @ Oct 21 2009, 11:36 PM)

I don't understand how it would lead to disenfranchisement. All that would happen is that voters would not be able to lazily vote down a party line without actually knowing who they are voting for. Voting would require more time and energy, and fewer clueless people would be at the polls.
That was my argument as well. Simply provide a list of names running for each office. If people don't know anything about those individuals (even basic facts like their political party affiliation), then they shouldn't be voting in those particular races.
If anything, it would create major problems for the two-party monopoly in American politics. Can't have that... An informed electorate voting their conscience instead of yanking a straight-party ticket handle? Dear lord, no!
-Wolverine-
Oct 21 2009, 09:40 PM
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Oct 22 2009, 03:39 AM)

That was my argument as well. Simply provide a list of names running for each office. If people don't know anything about those individuals (even basic facts like their political party affiliation), then they shouldn't be voting in those particular races.
If anything, it would create major problems for the two-party monopoly in American politics. Can't have that... An informed electorate voting their conscience instead of yanking a straight-party ticket handle? Dear lord, no!
Wouldn't want choices. lol
Dennis Von Bremen
Oct 21 2009, 09:42 PM
QUOTE (-Wolverine- @ Oct 21 2009, 10:36 PM)

I don't understand how it would lead to disenfranchisement. All that would happen is that voters would not be able to lazily vote down a party line without actually knowing who they are voting for. Voting would require more time and energy, and fewer clueless people would be at the polls.
One could just do a quick Google search right before you go to vote and see who the Democrat or Republican is? Ultimately then your idea would not be changing too much, a lot of people would maybe have to ask someone or do a quick search but ultimately they would still be just about as clueless about the person they are voting for.
western skier
Oct 21 2009, 09:42 PM
IF you care about voting, then you should take the time and find out what the candidates believe in.
-Wolverine-
Oct 21 2009, 09:47 PM
QUOTE (Dennis Von Bremen @ Oct 22 2009, 03:42 AM)

One could just do a quick Google search right before you go to vote and see who the Democrat or Republican is? Ultimately then your idea would not be changing too much, a lot of people would maybe have to ask someone or do a quick search but ultimately they would still be just about as clueless about the person they are voting for.
A person could do that, but how many will?
Loki Ire
Oct 21 2009, 09:48 PM
QUOTE (Dennis Von Bremen @ Oct 21 2009, 11:42 PM)

One could just do a quick Google search right before you go to vote and see who the Democrat or Republican is? Ultimately then your idea would not be changing too much, a lot of people would maybe have to ask someone or do a quick search but ultimately they would still be just about as clueless about the person they are voting for.
I honestly don't believe most of the apathetic people would take the time to find out the party affiliation of many, let alone all candidates running in an election. No doubt the RNC and DNC would provide an easy printout page on their website to reference, but I don't think a lot of people would even expend that much effort.
Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I get the distinct feeling that a large percentage of the small percentage of people who vote in the US do so only as an excuse to get some time out of work.
Dennis Von Bremen
Oct 21 2009, 09:53 PM
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Oct 21 2009, 10:48 PM)

I honestly don't believe most of the apathetic people would take the time to find out the party affiliation of many, let alone all candidates running in an election. No doubt the RNC and DNC would provide an easy printout page on their website to reference, but I don't think a lot of people would even expend that much effort.
Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I get the distinct feeling that a large percentage of the small percentage of people who vote in the US do so only as an excuse to get some time out of work.
That's pretty messed up if this is true... I always try to at least watch something from each candidate or read something that they wrote before voting for them, or at least read some sort of summary about some of their beliefs. I guess I'm just too German?
Lord GVChamp
Oct 21 2009, 10:14 PM
QUOTE
The department ruled that white voters in Kinston will vote for blacks only if they are Democrats and that therefore the city cannot get rid of party affiliations for local elections because that would violate black voters' right to elect the candidates they want.
Lol wut?
I'd have to read the actual report to form a strong opinion on this, but that is just stupid.
Loki Ire
Oct 21 2009, 10:25 PM
QUOTE (Dennis Von Bremen @ Oct 21 2009, 11:53 PM)

That's pretty messed up if this is true... I always try to at least watch something from each candidate or read something that they wrote before voting for them, or at least read some sort of summary about some of their beliefs. I guess I'm just too German?

Yeah, this is how much voters are paying attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U
Chrono
Oct 21 2009, 10:27 PM
The city is 2/3 black. They can elect whoever they want without the help of party denominations. This is total bull, and the morons in the Justice Department that pushed this forward should all be publicly executed.
Lord GVChamp
Oct 21 2009, 10:28 PM
QUOTE (Chrono @ Oct 21 2009, 11:27 PM)

The city is 2/3 black. They can elect whoever they want without the help of party denominations. This is total bull, and the morons in the Justice Department that pushed this forward should all be publicly executed.
You know how excited I get about killing peeps, but I think that's going a little far
Chrono
Oct 21 2009, 10:34 PM
You've got unelected officials blatantly violating the Constitution, along with any semblance of morals and common sense.
Seems warranted to me.
Ethan Smith
Oct 21 2009, 10:52 PM
I was going to come in and say that this was messed up, but Chrono had to go and say that and now I'm for it!
Gustave5436
Oct 21 2009, 10:54 PM
QUOTE (-Wolverine- @ Oct 21 2009, 08:24 PM)

I think its great to remove the party affiliation from before the candidates name on the ballots. An inability to vote for a canadate without the little letter before their name is truly pathetic beyond word.s
As for the racial issue, its obviously racism. If white voters voted for candidates because there were white, Jessie Jackson would kill them all. But it seems to be okay when minorities vote for skin color instead of a candidate's beliefs. It be the left's polarization on reason if anything.
I imagine there were a few people who voted for Mccain rather than Obama because the latter was more white, but I'm not seeing the corpses.
America
Oct 21 2009, 11:33 PM
If not the republicans, then the democracts....sigh
Vaal Satori
Oct 21 2009, 11:44 PM
In an ideal world in which everyone has the time to educate themselves about every candidate they are voting for, placing party affiliation on the ballot will not be necessary. Until we reach such a utopian fantasy, the "D" and "R" serve to provide less educated voters with a hint as to what types of agendas the candidates they are voting for will likely pursue. Every accommodation should be made for the people who want to vote but are ill equipped to make informed decisions, because we all pay the consequences if their ignorance goes unaddressed. To that end, I not only favor including party affiliation, but also including short summaries of each candidate's positions on key issues, so that no one will cast a vote without knowing precisely which policies they are endorsing.
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Oct 22 2009, 12:25 AM)

Yeah, this is how much voters are paying attention:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2UThat video is totally ridiculous. They act as if black voters are the only ones who are clueless. You could go to practically any white neighborhood in America and get the exact same results. And the conclusion they reach is completely unsubstantiated by the interviews, as there could be any number of reasons why the residents of Harlem supported Obama in 2008. Couldn't you have found a better source to illustrate your point?
Loki Ire
Oct 22 2009, 12:12 AM
QUOTE (Vaal Satori @ Oct 22 2009, 01:44 AM)

That video is totally ridiculous. They act as if black voters are the only ones who are clueless. You could go to practically any white neighborhood in America and get the exact same results. And the conclusion they reach is completely unsubstantiated by the interviews, as there could be any number of reasons why the residents of Harlem supported Obama in 2008. Couldn't you have found a better source to illustrate your point?
I don't think they were trying to claim that only blacks are ignorant of the candidates' positions. If anything, they were showing how ridiculously ignorant some voters are of the issues. Another source? I'm sure there's probably something else out there with a similar type of content. Feel free to post one if you like.
Chrono
Oct 22 2009, 12:50 AM
First sentence in the link..."Its so ridiculous to argue politics with anyone, because most - I'd say 99% of people don't know what the **** they're talking about"
He didn't say, "99% of black voters", or "99% of Harlem voters".
-Wolverine-
Oct 22 2009, 04:05 AM
QUOTE (Gustave5436 @ Oct 22 2009, 05:54 AM)

I imagine there were a few people who voted for Mccain rather than Obama because the latter was more white, but I'm not seeing the corpses.
You don't see any government agencies justifying such an action either.
Thar be a double standard.
Mack Truck
Oct 22 2009, 05:55 AM
QUOTE (Vaal Satori @ Oct 22 2009, 04:44 PM)

Every accommodation should be made for the people who want to vote but are ill equipped to make informed decisions, because we all pay the consequences if their ignorance goes unaddressed. To that end, I not only favor including party affiliation, but also including short summaries of each candidate's positions on key issues, so that no one will cast a vote without knowing precisely which policies they are endorsing.
Listing their key policies to help identify which candidate would best represent a voter makes sense.
Listing their party, on the other hand, only allows them to blindly vote for someone they know nothing about. In other words, it keeps them from being informed.
The latter on its own shouldn't appear. In conjunction with informed voters or a measure like the former it's fine, but if those two already exist then it becomes moot.
bkphysics
Oct 22 2009, 07:31 AM
I don't know about you guys, but i would rather the misinformed or uninformed voter not vote at all than blindly vote according to a party affiliation.
Remove the simplicity and make voters think again. I will never understand why this country tries to coddle the lazy and ignorant so much.
In this day and age, if you are unable to find basic fundamental information about what you are voting on, then really you should not even be voting. You are already disconnected from the society and your voting contribution is invalidated by your ignorance.
We need more intelligence at the poll booth, not less.
The Observer
Oct 22 2009, 07:47 AM
The whole racial angle aside, the entire POINT of political parties, I thought, was to simplify choices for people who don't follow individual positions. A lot of people will vote entirely Democratic, or Republican. Why is that wrong?
Frankly, people who vote based on party are less damaging then people who vote based on what CNN/Fox/MSNBC/Whatever tell them.
Kenadian_2006
Oct 22 2009, 09:28 AM
QUOTE (Chrono @ Oct 22 2009, 12:34 AM)

You've got unelected officials blatantly violating the Constitution, along with any semblance of morals and common sense.
Seems warranted to me.
Good thing you're not a lawmaker. For a second, I thought Merrie Melodies had taken over your body.
anenu
Oct 22 2009, 09:33 AM
You assume it is possible to get to know all the candidates running for a elected position. I know that in small towns the people running for city council or even mayor will have no Wikipedia page or likely any website that states their political position and while some would ignorantly argue that as a small town you can actually ask people who know them this is not true as even small towns contain hundreds or a couple thousand people.
Despite that i am not entirely against this as for major elections like state senator, governor, president, etc people should know. Personally i think that we shouldn't cater to stupid voters and in fact we should have a test in order for a person to be legally able to vote as i don't think our system works when everyone's decisions is given equal weight while many vote blindly.
Loki Ire
Oct 22 2009, 10:15 AM
QUOTE (anenu @ Oct 22 2009, 11:33 AM)

i don't think our system works when everyone's decisions is given equal weight while many vote blindly.
Bingo. This is the single worst point of failure in a representative Republic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather lose every vote I participate in to an informed voter pool disagreeing with me at every turn than to win half the time because of ignorant fools blindly voting without a clue in the world what the Hell they're voting for.
Frankly, if there were a reliable method to disqualify people from voting in a race where they're unfamiliar with the major candidates, I'd be all in favor of it.
New Inca Empire
Oct 22 2009, 10:27 AM
QUOTE (Loki Ire @ Oct 22 2009, 12:15 PM)

Bingo. This is the single worst point of failure in a representative Republic. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather lose every vote I participate in to an informed voter pool disagreeing with me at every turn than to win half the time because of ignorant fools blindly voting without a clue in the world what the Hell they're voting for.
Frankly, if there were a reliable method to disqualify people from voting in a race where they're unfamiliar with the major candidates, I'd be all in favor of it.
That would be unconstitutional but I agree with the sentiment.
Vaal Satori
Oct 22 2009, 11:26 AM
QUOTE (anenu @ Oct 22 2009, 11:33 AM)

Personally i think that we shouldn't cater to stupid voters and in fact we should have a test in order for a person to be legally able to vote as i don't think our system works when everyone's decisions is given equal weight while many vote blindly.
The last time we had voting tests was in the Jim Crow South, and it was a disaster. Minorities and poor whites were entirely excluded from the electoral process, and predictably their interests were completely overlooked. A lot of the oppression in that day can be directly linked to the fact that the people being oppressed had no power over the government, and thus the government had no reason to respect their rights as there were no consequences for violating them. The entire situation was a powder keg waiting to explode. Disillusionment among the masses towards the political process grew exponentially over time, and eventually produced a revolutionary fervor that would have ruined the South without federal intervention. Trust me, our current system in which everyone gets a vote is far better than the alternative.
deja
Oct 22 2009, 12:47 PM
QUOTE
the Obama administration recently overruled the electorate and decided that...
My skin started itching riiiiight about here.
Loki Ire
Oct 22 2009, 01:01 PM
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 22 2009, 12:27 PM)

That would be unconstitutional but I agree with the sentiment.
I think the US Constitution is an incredible document, but I'd love to make a couple minor edits. For one, I'd clarify that no treaty signed is above the US Constitution. For another, I'd re-write the Second Amdendment in such a way that nobody could ever question what it meant. I'd also make it easier for the states to put forth amendments to the Constitution.
And I think I'd put something in there about politicians who openly violate the US Constitution being hung, drawn, and quartered in full, unrestricted public view. That'd require some details to be worked out, but it'd be rather enjoyable to see politicians actually afraid of violating their oath of office.
Dennis Von Bremen
Oct 22 2009, 02:18 PM
QUOTE (bkphysics @ Oct 22 2009, 08:31 AM)

I don't know about you guys, but i would rather the misinformed or uninformed voter not vote at all than blindly vote according to a party affiliation.
Remove the simplicity and make voters think again. I will never understand why this country tries to coddle the lazy and ignorant so much.
In this day and age, if you are unable to find basic fundamental information about what you are voting on, then really you should not even be voting. You are already disconnected from the society and your voting contribution is invalidated by your ignorance.
We need more intelligence at the poll booth, not less.
I usually vote for party affiliation and I'm pretty informed. I mean I know that Germany is way different when it comes to political parties but I still identify mostly with the SPD on most things and I almost always vote for them (unless their candidate sucks in the local area and the Greens have a better one, usually Bremen SPD members are very intelligent people though, so no problems there; for example the last guy I voted for had a doctorate in economics).
QUOTE (anenu @ Oct 22 2009, 10:33 AM)

Personally i think that we shouldn't cater to stupid voters and in fact we should have a test in order for a person to be legally able to vote as i don't think our system works when everyone's decisions is given equal weight while many vote blindly.
I disagree with this entirely, better to be free with ignorance than go down that slippery slope... you start with some simple tests and next thing you know they put things on there that only true geniuses could know, it would disenfranchise many people who are supposed to be represented. Even if people are total idiots they are still the ones who are to decide how things should work as they are the people... you want to change that then try to get people more educated, don't try to force them to not be able to vote and leave the problems in society there, instead solve the problems rather than try to find some "easy" way out of solving such problems.
Chrono
Oct 22 2009, 02:30 PM
QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Oct 22 2009, 04:28 PM)

Good thing you're not a lawmaker. For a second, I thought Merrie Melodies had taken over your body.
Yeah, my joke completely nullifies the fact that the administration has done something completely Unconstitutional and immoral.
Rigggght.
Ertyy
Oct 22 2009, 02:47 PM
I laughed. Maybe the justice department should recommend that blacks have their voting rights given to a government-appointed agent. That way the african-american community can be sure of being properly and intelligently represented.
Kenadian_2006
Oct 22 2009, 02:48 PM
QUOTE (Chrono @ Oct 22 2009, 04:30 PM)

Yeah, my joke completely nullifies the fact that the administration has done something completely Unconstitutional and immoral.
Rigggght.
I didn't take it as a joke, that was my mistake.
Chrono
Oct 22 2009, 02:49 PM
QUOTE (Kenadian_2006 @ Oct 22 2009, 09:48 PM)

I didn't take it as a joke, that was my mistake.

Yeah, I don't seriously think the answer is to hang a bunch of lawyers.
Though it probably wouldn't hurt
Kenadian_2006
Oct 22 2009, 02:51 PM
Let's leave the constitutional lawyers out of it, they're good lawyers.
Ethan Smith
Oct 22 2009, 03:02 PM
What do you call 20 guillotined lawyers?
A head start.
Bob Janova
Oct 22 2009, 03:11 PM
Seems pretty ridiculous, but to be fair every other district in the country puts the party affiliations on, and it doesn't seem right that one place has a different voting protocol to everywhere else.
Chrono
Oct 22 2009, 05:16 PM
*disclaimer*
Local elections. It doesn't matter how they choose to run their local elections, because it doesn't affect anyone else.
anenu
Oct 22 2009, 05:25 PM
QUOTE (Vaal Satori @ Oct 22 2009, 12:26 PM)

The last time we had voting tests was in the Jim Crow South, and it was a disaster. Minorities and poor whites were entirely excluded from the electoral process, and predictably their interests were completely overlooked. A lot of the oppression in that day can be directly linked to the fact that the people being oppressed had no power over the government, and thus the government had no reason to respect their rights as there were no consequences for violating them. The entire situation was a powder keg waiting to explode. Disillusionment among the masses towards the political process grew exponentially over time, and eventually produced a revolutionary fervor that would have ruined the South without federal intervention. Trust me, our current system in which everyone gets a vote is far better than the alternative.
This difference between then and now is that you can look up information about candidates and the amount of amount of information means you can get an unbiased source or at least sources from both sides. However what we have now is massive amounts of uninformed voters get swayed through fearmongering and let people who have no fact they just blame others and this creates large numbers of ignorant votes.
QUOTE (Dennis Von Bremen @ Oct 22 2009, 03:18 PM)

I disagree with this entirely, better to be free with ignorance than go down that slippery slope... you start with some simple tests and next thing you know they put things on there that only true geniuses could know, it would disenfranchise many people who are supposed to be represented. Even if people are total idiots they are still the ones who are to decide how things should work as they are the people... you want to change that then try to get people more educated, don't try to force them to not be able to vote and leave the problems in society there, instead solve the problems rather than try to find some "easy" way out of solving such problems.
I'm not proposing a single test that would determine their ability to vote for th rest of their life. I think that America should stop letting everyone born in American soil vote and instead make them pass a citizenship test in order to vote and hold government jobs or government contracted jobs. This would ensure that people who don't have any idea what they are talking about couldn't vote blindly. Of course to be fair this test could would be able to be taken multiple times similar to how the ACT's or SAT's can be taken more then once. It would also hopefully encourage students to value their education more then they do now as their is a more obvious and distinct advantage to even the students who believe they will never be able to go through college.
JEB90
Oct 22 2009, 06:37 PM
QUOTE (Bob Janova @ Oct 22 2009, 05:11 PM)

Seems pretty ridiculous, but to be fair every other district in the country puts the party affiliations on, and it doesn't seem right that one place has a different voting protocol to everywhere else.
And yet, according to the article, only 9 of state's 551 cities and towns have partisan labels on local elections.
So you're correct, this decision "doesn't seem right" (even if you're wrong about what "every other district in the country" does)
Incidentally, I find it interesting that the language is that black's have a right to "
elect" a "candidate of their choice" (rather, than simply the right to
vote for a candidate of their choice, which is the right that the rest of us have).
Isildur
Oct 22 2009, 07:08 PM
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 22 2009, 11:27 AM)

Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.82
Not anything New Inca said, just the most convenient sig line to grab.
How about we make every candidate take a standardized political quiz like the above and then we include that next to their name on each ballot?
Dennis Von Bremen
Oct 23 2009, 12:03 AM
QUOTE (Isildur @ Oct 22 2009, 08:08 PM)

Not anything New Inca said, just the most convenient sig line to grab.
How about we make every candidate take a standardized political quiz like the above and then we include that next to their name on each ballot?
You know that the sig that New Inca has is my sig right? In any event, it would be pretty interesting if we had people's political compass next to their names.
Bob Janova
Oct 23 2009, 05:33 AM
Oh, here local elections are still done to a national template and the format of the voting papers is the same everywhere. If that's not true in America then there really is no reason to force that on this town.
JEB90
Oct 23 2009, 05:51 AM
QUOTE (Bob Janova @ Oct 23 2009, 07:33 AM)

Oh, here local elections are still done to a national template and the format of the voting papers is the same everywhere. If that's not true in America then there really is no reason to force that on this town.
If I understand you correctly, then the answer is that it just isn't the same here. Everything is different on a state-by-state basis. Indeed (certainly in Virginia), the machines used, the layouts of the ballots, the basic voting procedures change from county to county (one of the big problems in the 2000 Florida recount - and Minnesota this year - is that there was no statewide standard for recounting; which led to some questionable tactics).
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