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Flatlander
QUOTE
Smithsonian to Open Hall Dedicated to Story of Human Evolution

By Jacqueline Trescott
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 14, 2009 12:24 PM

The National Museum of Natural History announced Wednesday that it is dedicating a new hall to the story of human evolution, giving emphasis not only to how we became humans but how changes in the natural world affected human development.

The Hall of Human Origins, tracing a 6 million-year history, is scheduled to open March 17 -- 100 years to the day that the museum opened.

"Humans evolved over millions of years in response to a changing world," said Rick Potts, the Smithsonian's director of the Human Origins Program and an internationally known anthropologist. The work of his team in Kenya and China will be a keystone of the hall, with the working title "What Does It Mean to Be Human?" Potts said the materials will enable the public "to put humans in their place."

The 15,000-square-foot space will be named for David H. Koch, a chemical engineer and executive vice president of Koch Industries who gave $15 million for the hall's construction. The other primary donor to the project is Peter Buck, a physicist and co-founder of Subway restaurants, who gave $15 million to an endowment for research and accompanying education programs.

The total cost of the hall is $20.7 million, with $3.5 million from other private sources and $2.2 million from the Smithsonian's federal funds.

In a statement, Koch saluted the Human Origins Program, saying, it "has the power to influence the way we view our identity as humans, not only today, but for generations to come." Koch, an MIT-educated engineer, has given generously to many educational, cultural and medical institutions, as well as to conservative political groups. He was the 1980 Libertarian vice presidential candidate.

To tell the biological, cultural and ecological story, exhibitions will include 75 cast reproductions of skulls from the past 6 million years, a reconstructed face of Sahelanthropus (one of the oldest known hominids), fossils of early apes and humans, a large exhibit devoted to the human family tree, and a bone bed where visitors can learn about different kinds of fossil evidence.

One of the hall's highlights will be a display of original fossil skulls from the Cro-Magnon period and France's La Ferrassie cave, plus major discoveries from the 19th century. The materials are being lent by the Musée de l'Homme in Paris, which is closed for renovations. Another exhibit will contain a specially designed case with an original Neanderthal skeleton excavated from the Shanidar Cave in Iraq. The skeleton was discovered in the 1950s and has been in storage at the Smithsonian for the past 10 years.

"One of the threads throughout the hall is 'How do we know?' " said Potts. "How do we know a footprint is a human footprint?"


Full Washington Post article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...01401957_2.html
Lamuella
high five to the smithsonian for their commitment to actual science.
Flatlander
QUOTE (Lamuella @ Oct 14 2009, 12:17 PM) *
high five to the smithsonian for their commitment to actual science.

I resisted subtitling the post 'change we're allowed to believe in again' ... wink.gif
Lamuella
change we don't have to believe in because it happens anyway
New Inca Empire
On a related not, it has recently been discovered that humans, not chimps, are the more primitive form, country to popular belief. I must say, I found that to be quite humbling...
edikroma
One can only hope they'll have a section dedicated to Creationism in this Hall...

Museum of Natural History Creation Exhibit...
Lamuella
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 03:24 PM) *
On a related not, it has recently been discovered that humans, not chimps, are the more primitive form, country to popular belief. I must say, I found that to be quite humbling...


you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by "more primitive form"
Ned the Great
Awesome that the Smithsonian decided to do this cool.gif .

Too bad that Creationists will probably be trying to shut it down in a few days...
New Inca Empire
QUOTE (Lamuella @ Oct 14 2009, 03:32 PM) *
you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by "more primitive form"


A few years back a new fossil was discovered and determined to be the oldest known human/chimp species yet discovered and thus closest to the Common Ancestor. Despite this, it was noted that the species in question was more human-like then chimp-like indicating the Common Ancestor was more human-like then chimp-like in form. Thus, contrary to popular belief, chimps have evolved more then humans.
KaiserMelech Mikhail
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 07:24 PM) *
On a related not, it has recently been discovered that humans, not chimps, are the more primitive form, country to popular belief. I must say, I found that to be quite humbling...

Actually, none of us are in our "primative form," as we have all been evolving into our current forms to this very day. While the fact that humans split from chimps 6 million years ago, rather than the 3 million years that separate the two closest great apes, chimps and bonobos, it doesn't mean we are any more primative. Thank you primatology.
Lamuella
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 03:49 PM) *
A few years back a new fossil was discovered and determined to be the oldest known human/chimp species yet discovered and thus closest to the Common Ancestor. Despite this, it was noted that the species in question was more human-like then chimp-like indicating the Common Ancestor was more human-like then chimp-like in form. Thus, contrary to popular belief, chimps have evolved more then humans.


that makes no sense at all.

We and chimps have evolved the exact same amount, because the exact same amount of time has passed for us as for chimps since the common ancestor.

do you have a link to whatever story it is that you're mangling horribly in your reinterpretation?
New Inca Empire
QUOTE (KaiserMelech Mikhail @ Oct 14 2009, 03:50 PM) *
Actually, none of us are in our "primative form," as we have all been evolving into our current forms to this very day. While the fact that humans split from chimps 6 million years ago, rather than the 3 million years that separate the two closest great apes, chimps and bonobos, it doesn't mean we are any more primative. Thank you primatology.


So you're saying that, despite having undergone more changes, chimps are equally evolved as humans? By that logic a car, despite undergoing more changes sense the 1st wheel, is no more advanced then a horse-drawn wagon...
Penguin
QUOTE (Lamuella @ Oct 14 2009, 12:32 PM) *
you're going to have to explain to me what you mean by "more primitive form"

I think I may have an idea as to what he is referring to.

Recently published (October 2, 2009) in Science.

Publication in Science, site license required: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abst...sci;326/5949/64

QUOTE
Ardipithecus ramidus and the Paleobiology of Early Hominids
Tim D. White,1,* Berhane Asfaw,2 Yonas Beyene,3 Yohannes Haile-Selassie,4 C. Owen Lovejoy,5 Gen Suwa,6 Giday WoldeGabriel7

Hominid fossils predating the emergence of Australopithecus have been sparse and fragmentary. The evolution of our lineage after the last common ancestor we shared with chimpanzees has therefore remained unclear. Ardipithecus ramidus, recovered in ecologically and temporally resolved contexts in Ethiopia’s Afar Rift, now illuminates earlier hominid paleobiology and aspects of extant African ape evolution. More than 110 specimens recovered from 4.4-million-year-old sediments include a partial skeleton with much of the skull, hands, feet, limbs, and pelvis. This hominid combined arboreal palmigrade clambering and careful climbing with a form of terrestrial bipedality more primitive than that of Australopithecus. Ar. ramidus had a reduced canine/premolar complex and a little-derived cranial morphology and consumed a predominantly C3 plant–based diet (plants using the C3 photosynthetic pathway). Its ecological habitat appears to have been largely woodland-focused. Ar. ramidus lacks any characters typical of suspension, vertical climbing, or knuckle-walking. Ar. ramidus indicates that despite the genetic similarities of living humans and chimpanzees, the ancestor we last shared probably differed substantially from any extant African ape. Hominids and extant African apes have each become highly specialized through very different evolutionary pathways. This evidence also illuminates the origins of orthogrady, bipedality, ecology, diet, and social behavior in earliest Hominidae and helps to define the basal hominid adaptation, thereby accentuating the derived nature of Australopithecus.

1 Human Evolution Research Center and Department of Integrative Biology, 3101 Valley Life Sciences Building, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA.
2 Rift Valley Research Service, Post Office Box 5717, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
3 Department of Anthropology and Archaeology, Authority for Research and Conservation of the Cultural Heritage, Ministry of Youth, Sports and Culture, Post Office Box 6686, Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
4 Department of Physical Anthropology, Cleveland Museum of Natural History, 1 Wade Oval Drive, Cleveland, OH 44106, USA.
5 Department of Anthropology, School of Biomedical Sciences, Kent State University, Kent, OH 44240–0001, USA.
6 The University Museum, the University of Tokyo, Hongo, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo 113-0033, Japan.
7 Earth Environmental Sciences Division, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Los Alamos, NM 87545, USA.


See also: Publicly available news article from ScienceNOW

This would indicate that humans and chimps diverged earlier than previously predicted. To some, this seems to validate the hypothesis that humans did not evolve through a "protochimpanzee" stage during the course of evolution. An uninformed science journalist could conceivably report this as some measure of "primitivity". Many species have evolved since Homo sapiens, does that make humans a more "primitive" species? Maybe so, but I'd say the debate becomes entirely semantic at that point.
KaiserMelech Mikhail
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 07:55 PM) *
So you're saying that, despite having undergone more changes, chimps are equally evolved as humans? By that logic a car, despite undergoing more changes sense the 1st wheel, is no more advanced then a horse-drawn wagon...

No, because horse-drawn wagons stopped being developed in the 1900's. If they were given all the modern electronics and equipment, then I would say that they are as evolved as a car. Besides, by that logic, humans must be more evolved because we have language, cities, culture and clothes.
edikroma
I'm guessing this is what he's referring to...

http://www.livescience.com/animals/070417_chimps_evolve.html
Conan the Barbeque
QUOTE (Lamuella @ Oct 14 2009, 08:52 PM) *
that makes no sense at all.

We and chimps have evolved the exact same amount, because the exact same amount of time has passed for us as for chimps since the common ancestor.

do you have a link to whatever story it is that you're mangling horribly in your reinterpretation?

I'm not sure what he's referencing regarding chimps, but I'm not sure if you're aware that it is possible for animals to be generally considered more biologically primitive than their evolutionary kin, at least in part.

ie/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatara

More evolved is a strange term that sounds almost political.
Lamuella
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 03:55 PM) *
So you're saying that, despite having undergone more changes, chimps are equally evolved as humans? By that logic a car, despite undergoing more changes sense the 1st wheel, is no more advanced then a horse-drawn wagon...


evolution is a branching bush, not a ladder. Humans and chimpanzees are close branches that split. Whether humans branched off and chimps are the main line, or vice versa, is irrelevant to which has "evolved" more.
Lamuella
QUOTE (Conan the Barbeque @ Oct 14 2009, 04:17 PM) *
I'm not sure what he's referencing regarding chimps, but I'm not sure if you're aware that it is possible for animals to be generally considered more biologically primitive than their evolutionary kin, at least in part.

ie/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatara

More evolved is a strange term that sounds almost political.


however, even in the case of Tuatara and other "living fossils", they have had just as much opportunity for genetic change as other species (with the caveat that some animals breed faster than others), it's just that due to some oddity of their surroundings they haven't had to make dramatic changes to survive.
Flatlander
Would it be more accurate to say that chimps, based on that evidence, had changed more than homo sapiens relative to this common ancestor?
Penguin
QUOTE (edikroma @ Oct 14 2009, 01:07 PM) *
I'm guessing this is what he's referring to...

http://www.livescience.com/animals/070417_chimps_evolve.html

See original work: More genes underwent positive selection in chimpanzee evolution than in human evolution

QUOTE (Abstract)
1. Margaret A. Bakewell,
2. Peng Shi, and
3. Jianzhi Zhang*

Observations of numerous dramatic and presumably adaptive phenotypic modifications during human evolution prompt the common belief that more genes have undergone positive Darwinian selection in the human lineage than in the chimpanzee lineage since their evolutionary divergence 6–7 million years ago. Here, we test this hypothesis by analyzing nearly 14,000 genes of humans and chimps. To ensure an accurate and unbiased comparison, we select a proper outgroup, avoid sequencing errors, and verify statistical methods. Our results show that the number of positively selected genes is substantially smaller in humans than in chimps, despite a generally higher nonsynonymous substitution rate in humans. These observations are explainable by the reduced efficacy of natural selection in humans because of their smaller long-term effective population size but refute the anthropocentric view that a grand enhancement in Darwinian selection underlies human origins. Although human and chimp positively selected genes have different molecular functions and participate in different biological processes, the differences do not ostensibly correspond to the widely assumed adaptations of these species, suggesting how little is currently known about which traits have been under positive selection. Our analysis of the identified positively selected genes lends support to the association between human Mendelian diseases and past adaptations but provides no evidence for either the chromosomal speciation hypothesis or the widespread brain-gene acceleration hypothesis of human origins.


This is as one would expect from a species that has had many more recombination events than humans. What else evolves faster than humans? Just about everything. Slow generation times coupled with a small population until relatively recently translates to fewer reproductive events and implies that human evolution should be slower. The authors also mention that positively selected genes are much more likely to cause genetic disorders in humans than chimps presumably because of a larger physiological difference between early hominins and humans compared to early hominins and chimps. They found that 9.7% of positively selected genes (PSGs) were disease-associated in humans compared to only 6.1% in chimps.

The unintuitive conclusion is that although humans appear phenotypically and physiologically more different than chimpanzees relative to their common ancestors, human proteins are genetically less different.

Another caveat the authors recognize towards the end is that their bioinformatic approach looked at genetic changes in genes coding for protein sequences only. This approach did not allow them to study changes to gene expression systems in non-coding regions. Gene expression regulation is a crucial part in phenotype determination, probably moreso than small variations in the genetic sequences themselves. This leaves me thinking there are four possible conclusions one could draw:

1. The more intuitive answer to why humans appear different from great apes is simply hidden away in the mysteries of gene expression regulation.

2. The relatively large changes were produced by relatively few but more important genetic variations in specific gene sequences.

3. The study picked up a larger number of positively selected protein-coding genes in chimpanzees but the specific genes identified were significantly less important determiners of phenotype and physiology than the PSGs identified in humans.

4. Thinking humans are "more" different from their common ancestors than chimpanzees is really just a psychological byproduct of what humans perceive to be the grandest phenotypic variations and adaptations (walking upright, brain changes etc.) when from a genetic perspective those phenotypic changes are not as large or as "difficult". There are unrecognized phenotypic similarities between humans and their ancestors that are absent or further evolved in chimpanzees which might seem to be trivial changes from a human perspective but are actually larger leaps in complexity from a genetic perspective.


Given that I study transcription initiation regulation, I'd love to go with 1 but my gut says 3.
-Wolverine-
This thread *almost* coerces me to watch Sena Hannity tonight, to enjoy the sight of him foaming at the mouth. But its still not quite worth it.

A great day for scientific enlightenment.
MacFluffers
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 14 2009, 03:55 PM) *
So you're saying that, despite having undergone more changes, chimps are equally evolved as humans? By that logic a car, despite undergoing more changes sense the 1st wheel, is no more advanced then a horse-drawn wagon...

Erm...evolutionary changes and "primitiveness" have aren't necessarily related. Quantity and quality are completely different. You could take a car and paint it a dozen different times and replace a bunch of the parts thereby making it undergo more changes...but that's not why you'd say that cars are more advanced. In the same way, if you made a million modifications to a wagon, without a motor and with a dependence on animals for locomotion, it would always be more primitive.

You see, evolution does not necessarily go from less advanced to more advanced. It goes from less well adapted to more well adapted. And think about it: humans in general perform best in civilized society, because that's what we've adapted to. Chimpanzees are best adapted to jungles, and surprise! That's where they live. Switch us and it doesn't work so hot. A chimpanzee would probably be freaked out in a city, and most untrained people would not fare well in the jungle.

So are we more "primitive"? In our jungle survival skills, definitely. But humans have better communicative abilities, better cognitive skills, and the ability to cooperate, which are things that they don't have.

Besides, humans don't really evolve biologically anymore because genetic traits don't provide the reproductive successfulness that they do in uncivilized society.
Delta1212
QUOTE (MacFluffers @ Oct 14 2009, 10:47 PM) *
Erm...evolutionary changes and "primitiveness" have aren't necessarily related. Quantity and quality are completely different. You could take a car and paint it a dozen different times and replace a bunch of the parts thereby making it undergo more changes...but that's not why you'd say that cars are more advanced. In the same way, if you made a million modifications to a wagon, without a motor and with a dependence on animals for locomotion, it would always be more primitive.

You see, evolution does not necessarily go from less advanced to more advanced. It goes from less well adapted to more well adapted. And think about it: humans in general perform best in civilized society, because that's what we've adapted to. Chimpanzees are best adapted to jungles, and surprise! That's where they live. Switch us and it doesn't work so hot. A chimpanzee would probably be freaked out in a city, and most untrained people would not fare well in the jungle.

So are we more "primitive"? In our jungle survival skills, definitely. But humans have better communicative abilities, better cognitive skills, and the ability to cooperate, which are things that they don't have.

Besides, humans don't really evolve biologically anymore because genetic traits don't provide the reproductive successfulness that they do in uncivilized society.

Actually, we're adapted to plains, not cities, but otherwise, yes.
MacFluffers
I was thinking about modern humans, but yeah, I misspoke. There's also social evolution, which being a city person led me to think about the pinnacle of the developed world (cities), but I suppose that's not universal for humans...
Hydro
QUOTE (MacFluffers @ Oct 14 2009, 08:47 PM) *
Erm...evolutionary changes and "primitiveness" have aren't necessarily related. Quantity and quality are completely different. You could take a car and paint it a dozen different times and replace a bunch of the parts thereby making it undergo more changes...but that's not why you'd say that cars are more advanced. In the same way, if you made a million modifications to a wagon, without a motor and with a dependence on animals for locomotion, it would always be more primitive.

You see, evolution does not necessarily go from less advanced to more advanced. It goes from less well adapted to more well adapted. And think about it: humans in general perform best in civilized society, because that's what we've adapted to. Chimpanzees are best adapted to jungles, and surprise! That's where they live. Switch us and it doesn't work so hot. A chimpanzee would probably be freaked out in a city, and most untrained people would not fare well in the jungle.

So are we more "primitive"? In our jungle survival skills, definitely. But humans have better communicative abilities, better cognitive skills, and the ability to cooperate, which are things that they don't have.

Besides, humans don't really evolve biologically anymore because genetic traits don't provide the reproductive successfulness that they do in uncivilized society.


Evolution is a constant and there are genetic traits that are chosen for, even in "civilized society". These traits are obviously somewhat different than what they might've been say 100000 years ago but it's absurd to say that evolution simply stops because of technological advancement.
Aeternos Astramora
QUOTE (MacFluffers @ Oct 14 2009, 09:47 PM) *
Besides, humans don't really evolve biologically anymore because genetic traits don't provide the reproductive successfulness that they do in uncivilized society.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/11/science/11gene.html

Quite the opposite really.
auto98
QUOTE (MacFluffers @ Oct 15 2009, 03:47 AM) *
Besides, humans don't really evolve biologically anymore because genetic traits don't provide the reproductive successfulness that they do in uncivilized society.


The japanese for example are observably evolving - their average height has shot up in the last few decades...
Delta1212
QUOTE (auto98 @ Oct 15 2009, 07:54 AM) *
The japanese for example are observably evolving - their average height has shot up in the last few decades...

As with pretty much every other population that has undergone similar height changes, that's most likely a nutritional effect. Unless of course a troupe of basketball players recently visited the island and had a ton of children.
Lamuella
QUOTE (auto98 @ Oct 15 2009, 07:54 AM) *
The japanese for example are observably evolving - their average height has shot up in the last few decades...


that's not necessarily anything to do with evolution. One of the major factors in height is quality of diet at a young age. As the world has got richer, the quality of food available to children has increased, and height has increased accordingly.
Kenadian_2006
QUOTE (auto98 @ Oct 15 2009, 07:54 AM) *
The japanese for example are observably evolving - their average height has shot up in the last few decades...


That's just nutrition, as others have said. You think the Romans were tall? Heh, they were midgets compared to us.
MacFluffers
Not all changes can be attributed to genetics. If you're taller than your friends, it's probably because of your parents, but that's not why you're taller than someone living in Congo.

As for the NY Times article, I have to read through the whole thing before I can respond.

The article mentions that the reason humans are still evolving is because natural selection still holds in civilized society, which I suppose is true. However, the nature of the beast changes quite a bit when "well adapted" doesn't mean faster or stronger or better at climbing.

That said, there are a handful of scientists that say that the new hypothesis is premature, and it's possible that they may have mis-correlated the data.
Flatlander
We're still probably evolving in reaction to environmental selection factors .... let's say that some industrial wastes result in infertility or higher child mortality rates. People with a genetically-based resistance to this form of infertility would then have better reproductive chances, and this genetic trait would become favored. Etc. etc. etc.

And yes, nutrition is the reason the Japanese are noticeably taller in a single generation. Dairy and meat protein skyrocketed in the postwar Japanese diet as American eating habits were introduced by the occupation force. We had a Japanese girl as an exchange student at my high school and she *towered* over both her parents, and you saw a lot of that in affluent families of her generation.
MacFluffers
Hooray for huge schoolgirls. biggrin.gif

But anyway...I didn't think about things like the impact of the industrial world on natural selection. Which was silly of me, since I've used the Pepper Moth during the industrial revolution as a visible model of natural selection. Okay, people still evolve; I've changed my hypothesis. I do imagine that it's slower though, since people generally try to lower mortality rate.
Tyler DurdenCC
Why don't creationist just say that God created evolution / controlled it, so indirectly, he created Man?

It's a win-win

Evolutionists still have evolution
Creationist still get God creating man

There.
Flatlander
QUOTE (MacFluffers @ Oct 15 2009, 09:52 AM) *
Hooray for huge schoolgirls. biggrin.gif

But anyway...I didn't think about things like the impact of the industrial world on natural selection. Which was silly of me, since I've used the Pepper Moth during the industrial revolution as a visible model of natural selection. Okay, people still evolve; I've changed my hypothesis. I do imagine that it's slower though, since people generally try to lower mortality rate.

Undoubtedly, our ability to modify our environment instead of adapting to it has affected how evolution shapes us. But at the same time we've added so many unintended environmental influences to our lives that it may only have changed the nature of what it is that we have to adapt to.
New Inca Empire
QUOTE (Tyler DurdenCC @ Oct 15 2009, 02:45 PM) *
Why don't creationist just say that God created evolution / controlled it, so indirectly, he created Man?

It's a win-win

Evolutionists still have evolution
Creationist still get God creating man

There.


That's the position of most creationists. I think they call themselves evolutionary-creationists and support the Big Bang hypothesis claiming it as proof of the, "Let there be light!", declaration by God. Everyone knows the annoying fools are the ones to get noticed and not the silent intellectuals, thus the ID creationists are the only ones that get into the news.
Arcturus Jefferson
QUOTE (New Inca Empire @ Oct 15 2009, 03:01 PM) *
That's the position of most creationists. I think they call themselves evolutionary-creationists and support the Big Bang hypothesis claiming it as proof of the, "Let there be light!", declaration by God. Everyone knows the annoying fools are the ones to get noticed and not the silent intellectuals, thus the ID creationists are the only ones that get into the news.

I don't think the idea that God directs evolution is called creationist...
Flatlander
QUOTE (Arcturus Jefferson @ Oct 15 2009, 12:44 PM) *
I don't think the idea that God directs evolution is called creationist...

No ... there are most definitely Christians who do not contest the idea of Darwinian evolution, but what I think of as 'creationist' belief is that the diversity of species could NOT have occurred by a process where simpler animal life evolved into more complex and diverse animal life ... their whole argument is that complex forms *had* to be "created" in their complex form.
KaiserMelech Mikhail
QUOTE (Arcturus Jefferson @ Oct 15 2009, 08:44 PM) *
I don't think the idea that God directs evolution is called creationist...

Behold, Theistic Evolution, when Young-Earth creationism is too crazy, and Darwinism is too blasphemous. awesome.gif
Arcturus Jefferson
QUOTE (KaiserMelech Mikhail @ Oct 15 2009, 05:55 PM) *
Behold, Theistic Evolution, when Young-Earth creationism is too crazy, and Darwinism is too blasphemous. awesome.gif

No, you misunderstand (your own link, even). Proponents of Theistic Evolution (or Christian Darwinism) do not find Darwin blasphemous at all. Ultimately, theistic evolution is on the opposite side to creationism.

Believe me, I'm fairly familiar with theistic evolution. I'm not ignorant; I'm saying you are wrong.
Lord GVChamp
QUOTE (Arcturus Jefferson @ Oct 15 2009, 02:44 PM) *
I don't think the idea that God directs evolution is called creationist...

No, it's semi-intelligent design! cool.gif
Tolkien
QUOTE (Tyler DurdenCC @ Oct 15 2009, 02:45 PM) *
Why don't creationist just say that God created evolution / controlled it, so indirectly, he created Man?

It's a win-win

Evolutionists still have evolution
Creationist still get God creating man

There.

Say hello to theistic evolution.

QUOTE (Arcturus Jefferson @ Oct 15 2009, 06:05 PM) *
No, you misunderstand (your own link, even). Proponents of Theistic Evolution (or Christian Darwinism) do not find Darwin blasphemous at all. Ultimately, theistic evolution is on the opposite side to creationism.

Believe me, I'm fairly familiar with theistic evolution. I'm not ignorant; I'm saying you are wrong.

He's being ridiculous on purpose, he doesn't actually think that. Just an attempt at being funny.

What happened to you, you use to be far more laidback. Now you seem rather stuffy.
Arcturus Jefferson
QUOTE (Tolkien @ Oct 15 2009, 10:35 PM) *
He's being ridiculous on purpose, he doesn't actually think that. Just an attempt at being funny.

What happened to you, you use to be far more laidback. Now you seem rather stuffy.

For starters I really wasn't picking up on it, and secondly I'm one misstep away from the guards taking me out back and shooting me, so I can't afford be laid back.
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