CURRENT PROBLEM: The way aircraft are dealt with in game is overly simple. Costs and requirements are too small, damage dealt during battle is minimal, and the battle portion itself requires no thought or planning

MY SUGGESION is to change the way bombers and fighter interact and how they destroy infrastructure in the game.

BOMBERS

First off I believe bombers should be counted individually each with their own chance of destroying infrastructure. The amount of each Infrastructure a bomber can destroy will be based on its level. A fair amount in my mind is .25 infrastructures per level.

Lvl1 .25
Lvl2 .50
Lvl3 .75
Lvl4 1.0
Lvl5 1.25
Lvl6 1.50
Lvl7 1.75
Lvl8 2.0
Lvl9 2.25

This will allow a nation with 60 level nine bombers to destroy a max of 135 infra which is a decent amount but with the proposed requirements to get level nine aircraft this is not completely unreasonable

I also think that the limit of destroying tanks should be changed. Currently a nation of my size 37,000NS can have about 5000+ tanks and aircrafts can only destroy 20 per run. I believe the limit should be removed and that the same formula I suggested with the infrastructure be used except it would be 10x level up to a max destruction on 5400 tanks.

The same should be done for the destruction of cruise missiles except with a .05x level allowing destruction of max 27. Rounding the decimal to the closest whole number

FIGHTERS

Now not every nation is not going to have just 60 bombers so this is how Fighters fit into the mix. Fighters will be used to distract the bombers and guard fighters. A level nine fighter can distract another single level nine fighter on a 1:1 ration while a level nine fighter can distract two level nine bombers 2:1. This will keep a nation from buying 60 level nine bombers and attacking because a force of 30 fighters would prevent bombers from unleashing any of their bombs.

Now as for Fighters and levels if a level nine fighter is fighting a level eight fighter he will distract one with about a .33 chance of being able to distract two fighters, but if a level nine fighter is fighting a level six fighter he will have a .99% chance of distracting two. So that when it is equal and the levels are the same it will be a 1:1 fight but with each level difference a 33% chance of distracting more fighters will occur so that if a level nine fighter is fighting a level one it will be able to distract three fighters with a 64% chance of distracting a fourth.

Equal lvl 1:1
One lvl dif 1:1.33
Two lvl dif 1:1.66
Three lvl dif 1:2
Four lvl dif 1:2.33
Five lvl dif 1:2.66
Six lvl dif 1:3
Seven lvl dif 1:3.33
Eight lvl dif 1:3.66

Now with each fight it is almost always guaranteed the distraction will occur however destruction will still randomly occur. Now the destruction will only occur when a dog fight occurs. If 20 fighters are against 40 fighters and 20 bombers in that situation no bombers should be destroyed.

WONDERS

Current

Anti-Air Defense Network - $50,000,000 - Reduces odds of incoming aircraft attacks against your nation -25%. Reduces aircraft attack damages against your nation -10%.

My suggestion

Anti-Air Defense Network- $50,000,000 - Distracts up to 10 random planes during an incoming bombing run.

Current

Foreign Air Force Base - $35,000,000 - Raises the aircraft limit +20 for your nation and increases the number of aircraft that can be sent in each attack mission +10.

My Suggestion

Foreign Air Force Base - $75,000,000 - Raises the aircraft limit +20 for your nation and increases the number of aircraft that can be sent in each attack mission +10.

PRICES AND OTHER CHANGES

With a suggestion this big it is going to be necessary to change some things

First off a reduction from two bombing runs a day to only one a day. This will be by war so during a three on one the defending nation can properly counter attack.

To prevent swapping out of bombers so that a nation could have 60 fighters to defend but when they want to attack sell out 30 fighters and buy 30 bombers. A restriction on buying and selling. A nation can only buy or sell, either one or the other, once a day.

The third change needed is a drastic increase in pricing, with the potential damage being done a full force air force should cost along the same prices as a full arsenal of spies.

Level-1-5,000
Level-2-10,000
Level-3-25,000
Level-4-50,000
Level-5-100,000
Level-6-250,000
Level-7-500,000
Level-8-750,000
Level-9-1,000,000

This will make a full set of 60 level nine aircraft cost 60 million.

The one thing that this will require but won’t be liked is the fact that current bought aircraft should be destroyed and need to be re-bought. It would be completely unfair for nations who do not have max aircraft now with such a big increase in pricing. Currently a max air force costs three million that’s a 57 million difference.

EXAMPLES

Now for some examples all these example are completely using my formulas and do not include any random factors that would be present should this be implemented in the game.

Example 1

Team A:
35 Level nine Fighters
25 Level nine bombers

Team B:
25 Level nine Fighters
25 Level nine bombers

When Team A attacks he will have distracted all of Team B's Fighters which will allow all of its bombers drop its bomb. Dealing 56.25 infra damage 2250 tanks destroyed and 11 cruise missile destruction. This is moderate damage for a nation that afford to have 50 level nine aircraft.

If the situation was reversed and Team B attacks his fighters will only distract 25 of the Team A’s fighters allowing 10 of team A’s fighters to distract his bombers as a 2:1 ratio distracting all but 5 of them. Causing Team B’s bombing mission to only do 11.25 infra damage, 450 tanks destroyed and 5 cruise missiles.

Example 2

Team A
25 Level nine Fighters
25 Level nine Bombers

Team B
25 Level six Fighters
25 Level six Bombers

If Team A attacks Team B, Team A’s superior fighters will distract all of Team’s B fighters allowing all 25 of Team A’s bombers to strike and will deal 56.25 infra damage 2250 tanks destroyed and 11 cruise missile destruction.

If Team B attacks Team A, Team A’s superior fighters will distract all of Team’s B Fighters and have 12 Fighters left over which will distract all but one of Team B’s bombers which will only do 1.50 infrastructure, 60 tanks, and zero cruise missiles.

CONCLUSION

Any suggestions, tweaks, comments, concerns are welcome. I’d appreciate if no mention of difficulty to code is mentioned. I realize this is a big change and should it be implemented it would need to fully tested and tweaked, this is not meant to be a quick only if its easy change.

Two things I would really like suggestions about is, the ratio of fighters distracting bombers, I went with 2:1 but I think 3:1 might also work, I’m not entirely sure which would work better so comments there would be useful.

The other is the multipliers for tanks and cruise missiles; I am not sure if they are too high or low given costs of each item.

Approved for discussion

After taking that long to write it out, I wouldn't have the heart to refuse

Air force is expensive enough as it is, and when a nation gets a WRC, the costs can be nearly 10M for a full air force (it's something like 7M for me at 5k tech already).

I agree air force needs an overhaul though, just not necessarily in the method you chose to go about it. I would just keep full air force of fighters and basically prevent anyone from doing any damage to me via air.

i think this suggestion is brilliant actually. We have all these suggestions trying to figure out a way to make war cost more, and here is one solution. Obviously destruction of aircraft needs to be added in, probably something along the lines of 75% Chance for fighters to destroyer bombers if the bombers get distracted. and a 45% chance for attacking fighters to destroy defending distracted fighters, with 55% chance for the defenders to destroy an attacking fighter which is distracting them.

The 10% difference in favor of the defender because it is the above the defenders nation, and they know the terrain/air better than the attackers would.

Chances to destroy would also have to be based upon what lvl the fighters are. a lvl 9 fighter should have a much greater % chance to destroy a lvl 7 plane than a lvl 9 plane.

The costs seem very reasonable to me, if a spy costs 500k, and a lvl 9 plane only costs 50k something is messed up. Planes are VERY expensive regardless, and should cost ALOT more.

If this would be implemented, war-chests would deplete MUCH quicker, causing faster wars that people seem to be complaining about. Though i think also required infra/tech would have to be changed to make the larger nations be able to get the more powerful aircraft.

say requirements would be something like:

9- 5500 infra and 2000 tech.
8- 4500 infra and 1500 tech
7 - 3500 infra and 1000 tech
6- 2500 infra and 700 tech
5- 1800 infra and 500 tech
4 - 1300 infra and 350 tech
3 - 1000 infra and 225 tech
2 - 750 infra and 125 tech
1- 500 infra and 50 tech

Needs to have some way of actually destroying aircraft, as opposed to just making them ineffective.

Some very interesting concepts.

I have sort of put together my own checklist/wish list for the sorts of things that I'd like to see any sort of significant overhaul of aircraft in game address:

1. The separation of bombers into strategic (better at damaging infra) and tactical types (better at killing CMs, tanks).

2. The introduction of true stealth aircraft (stealth bombers would be able to carry out missions without an escort, but are VERY pricey; stealth fighters would have increased survivability in dogfight missions but are also VERY pricey).

3. Multipurpose fighters that can act as fighters or as tactical bombers (but not both at the same time).

4. Carrier-based aircraft (multipurpose fighters, fighters, or tactical bombers only) would have the ability to attack ships in addition to being available for land-based missions when the navy is in Battle Support mode.

5. Rather than upping the requirements for various levels of aircraft (again), create level 10-15 aircraft that have increasing costs/infra requirements/tech requirements.

6. Change the aircraft that are used as examples in game. Make the examples of progression through the stages of aircraft development more logical (especially chronologically speaking). A Cobra gunship is not a level 1 "bomber", nor is an Apache a level 2 "bomber". The bomber and fighter examples should be from the same era.

7. Allow fighters sent on dogfight missions to kill bombers after all fighter opposition has been eliminated. There are numerous historical examples where fighters have strafed bombers on the ground while flying a air supremacy mission in order to deny the enemy to use said bombers later to carry out attacks.

8. Create rules for the use of armed drones. These would be cheaper than regular aircraft and would be treated as tactical bombers for game purposes.

9. Consider adding transport aircraft. These could be used to carry soldiers into battle giving the soldiers an attack bonus (the soldiers while using transports would be the equivalent of air mobile or airborne infantry).

10. Limit the total number of aircraft that can be produced in one day in a manner similar to naval vessels. Historically, the critical limiting factors in air campaigns were the replacement of air crews and aircraft, not the cost of said aircraft per se. This will force players to make wiser decisions regarding the aircraft they produce rather than simply throwing money at the problem.

I don't know that the above proposal addresses these points, but they certainly deserve due consideration.

I'm not really sure about your proposal in general, but that statement stood out. It would essentially make it guaranteed that no bombs would be dropped if all you did was buy fighters. You'd effectively stonewall the attack without having to raise a finger. That isn't how it should work. I mean at least if I could do damage, but I'd lose some bombers (ie the bombers would drop their payloads successfully and then be shot down) it might be worth it. But as you have it everyone will just turtle with fighters.

Actually as the rules stand right now, 30 fighters against 60 bombers would not only ensure that no bombs fall but likely all the bombers will be shot down.

I like the idea that you can buy a bunch of bombers and go blow stuff up in a straight forward proportion to the number of bombers used (with no cap other than the number of aircraft you can own). The current formula seems rather a lot more complicated. I also like the idea that bombers without escort would automatically return if confronted by fighters--to a point. I always felt that bombers should have a defense factor against fighters, even if it wasn't very high. Historically, bombers were armed with at least minimal self defense weaponry and/or electronic warfare gear that made engaging them much more difficult. Beyond that, pilots tend not to like suicide missions....

Personally I think it would be nice if you could activate air support for your ground battles. Air support increases both your defensive and offensive ground battle odds, at the cost of being unable to bomb anyone that day. Your fighters will still defend against enemy bombing runs, of course. If you've already bombed someone that day the option of air support is no longer available.

Kinda like Battle Support, except you don't need a navy for this.

I really like the idea of stealth bombers

What if the attacker/defender loses 50% of their distracted planes, going both ways?

EX:

Team A: 50 Lvl 9 Fighters
35 Lvl 9 bombers (navy)

Team B: 85 Lvl 9 Fighters

Since the fighters are escorting the bombers the fighter/fighter combat will occur first.

50 vs 85:

85 fighters distract 50, 25 (85/50) or 43 fighters lost

50 fighters attack 85: 25 times (50/85) or 15 fighters lost

70 fighters attack 35 bombers. Bombers have defense, therefore two bombers destroy 1 fighter prior to being destroyed.

18 fighters lost, 17.5(70/35) or 35 bombers lost. However, 50% of destroyed bombers still drop their bombs, and 100% of undestroyed bombers drop their bombs.

Overall result: Team A loses 43 fighters and 35 bombers, still inflicts 50% damage.

Team B loses 33 fighters.

After seeing this now I realize that this is indeed an unfinished draft of what I had wrote up. I shall search for my finished copy and post the relevant changes that I have made.

In short term however I will say that destruction is possible. Any planes that are distracted have the possibility of being destroyed. Bombers at a higher percentage than Fighters.

As to a nation having a full force of 60 fighters. While yes that will keep them relatively safe from bombers it will prevent them from attacking via that route. Also I believe that in my final draft I addressed the issue also with the idea that aircraft could be destroyed via cruise missiles and possibly tanks as well during ground battles. This way a properly planned attack could be effective if you launched two ground attacks destroy 10-20 aircraft and two CM destroying another 20 your force could move in with a balanced force and still do damage. (these numbers are off the top of my head don't hold me to them please.)

Another thing that is useful about the idea it can like ChairmanHal said hinted at, allow for other types of aircraft to be joined.

Like a stealth bomber which could have a chance of sneaking in undetected. Also a EMP aircraft that would cover a certain number of your bombers giving them a percentage chance to avoid being detected.

Again I apologize for submitting an unfinished draft, I had this copied on my main comp as well as my laptop and I must have grabbed the wrong copy.

We need to get a way to destoryer aircraft from the ground.ie set up AA or SAM as Improvements, and like their wonders for ground warfare their so be wonders for the air warfare side to.
Topgun Weapons School-$75million
This wonder trains your pilot in advanced fighter and bomber tactics.Increases attacking and defending in air combat +20%.The wonder requires 4000infra, 2000land, 1500tech, and the Pentagon Wonder.
And adding a true stealth aircraft both fighters and bomber would make for better game play.
Aslo have more types of missing that they can do.
Navy stirkes-Attack the navy
Wild Weasel strikes-To kill their SAM and AA sites
Military bomber run-Attack only the military
City bomber-Attack infra and tech

We look forward to it. I also appreciate that you opened this topic, as this is an area where some easy to implement improvements to the mechanics/units can be rolled out and frankly should be rolled out.

SAMs would be nice. (Surface-to-Air-Missiles) as a method of destroying fighters and bombers. ie; every bombing run/dogfight has a higher chance of destroying enemy aircraft.

Ok, but how would you see this working in relation to the AA Defense Network wonder?

EDIT: for reference sake...

Anti-Air Defense Network - $50,000,000 - Reduces odds of incoming aircraft attacks against your nation -25%. Reduces aircraft attack damages against your nation -10%.

Seems like this was designed simply to augment fighters in defense with a side benefit of reducing damage.

Exactly, but it still requires a pre-existing airforce to intercept the attacking aircraft. Perhaps an extra wonder or an addition to the AADN? As it is now it could certainly use a buff. SAMs would be nice especially after a nuke.

I believe it already reduces aircraft damages against your nation 10%, without or without a standing airforce.

It does. I believe however that Blacky would like to see a new unit (SAM and/or AAA batteries) added. Thus a nation without an airforce would be able to not only lessen damage through the AADN wonder, but also knock a few planes out of the air.

Fair enough, I re-read what he actually said.



In this case, you're looking to have an FSS with the AADN also. So you reduce damages against your nation, as well as after a nuke have some aircraft to intercept.

I still maintain that what you're looking for already exists, though it is with the combination of two wonders.

Not quite. The wonder would require no effort on your part once its purchased, unless we did something like require it to use CMs in which case you'd just have purchase them.

Do we really need more ways to reduce damage with no effort beyond buying a wonder?

That's why I was saying that a new unit type was in order. An integrated air defense system usually implies not just over lapping radar coverage that allows you to vector in fighters to intercept more efficiently (as was the case in the Battle of Britain), it should also include in the modern sense SAM and AAA batteries with overlapping coverage and that piece seems missing from the game.

I agree with allllllllllllllllllllllllll of the original idea! plus Guffey's point, and ChairmanHal's 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and 10. SPECIALLY 10.

That's why i said it should use CMs. It requires at least some effort by the player.

uhh why would we make aircrafts do just about as much damage as a nuke.

Yes in principle, not sure about the actual numbers.

Also yes to ChairmanHal's comments about there needing to be choices between strategic/tactical bombers.

As for "all fighter" forces or the "all fighters but 2", just require purchase of special fighters to fight the strategic bombers.

Then, allow up to half a nation's air force to be fighters and the other half bombers, preserving an offensive/defensive balance. If an airforce is wiped out, a nation can buy back just fighters, but only up to half of his maximum allowed.

There ya go, everything fixed.

It is potential damage and its all infra, no tech. By potential it means if you have max bombers and they all launch their payloads successfully and perfectly (ie the random number generator is all maxed)

call me cynical but the random number generator with airforce is completely broke

well that's another issue...

I like this idea. Maybe another catagory of aircraft like helicopters and tank buster planes that would be used for ground battles only and that would be seperate from normal aircraft?

SAM and AAA batteries is a great idea. I think that they should not be a wonder or improvement though. Just a military purchase. Sam's would also require an additional purchase of SAM missiles. Maybe like spies, where another nation can not see how many sam sights, or AAA battiers you have without spying for that information.

There are all types of military uses for aircraft. Fighters, Boomers, Spy, Tankers, Transport, and so on, and so on. These all could be put into the game.

Vietnam was fought by the U.S. by using helicopters for moving troops where they needed to be. Moving wounded troops out of combat, and firing guns at the enemy the whole way. Seems like they should be added just to increase your soldier efficiency level by... maybe 15% or so for up to 30 helicopters...

Tanker aircraft could give you another aircraft attack (from 2 a day to 3) provided you have a 5:1 ratio of aircraft to tankers.

Spy aircraft could give you the amount of AAA batteries, and SAM's. Maybe Incite Government Propaganda and Incite Religious Propaganda but that's about all I can come up with for them.

Anyway, I hope these ideas (not just mine) make it to the game. I think this would make thing much more interesting.

hah well i enjoy a 1 on 82 match and i lose a plane. sometimes how the cards fall just makes me laugh.