There are those in this world who feel safer today than they were yesterday. There are those who feel that the days ahead are brighter than the days behind, that they made a difference in the karma war, that the forces of evil have been dealt irreparable damage and that they will never again rule with an iron fist as they once had. This is a false sense of security.

Do to the incompetence and impotence of the forces of karma to finish the job against the NPO and the Hegemony, and by allowing them to live, allowing the ideology which threatens the security of all by placing unlimited power in the hands of the elitist few, and our future is in jeopardy. The leaders of the forces of karma, in there greed, sought to gain technology, money, land and infrastructure. Thinking they can stay ahead and keep the hegemony in check with such gifts, have forsaken those they were to protect for there own benefit.

The evil forces of the hegemony are once again on the rise. The NPO has gone from number 12 to number ten in a few short weeks, they have issued a new maldavi doctrine which is hidden with under lying messages and open to interpitation, they seek to unite the red sphere economically, which is the first step to conquest. They have always been and always will be a threat. But now our future is even more grim. They will seek there revenge on those who have harmed her.

But let me be clear, the NPO herself is not the threat; the ideal of Francoism in which she enshrines is the true threat, an ideal that is changed from one emperor to the next to suit his needs, an ideal that gives him unlimited power by playing off the laws of nature and other ignorance. The ideal creates a system where conquest is not an option but rather a way of life.

One of the gravest mistakes ever made on planet bob is allowing the NPO, allowing Francoism to survive. The NPO will return to exact its revenge, and may Admin have mercy on us all. Now because of this fault military conquest is no longer an option, now other means must be sought and exploited to bring her down to let freedom reign. The NPO and her minions will return and our mistake will cost us dearly.

We're doomed.

Oh God, it's another of these announcements........... the New Pacific Order is evil, we are heartless, we aren't human beings just like everyone else, yada, yada.



Do I need to lend you a tinfoil hat? I used to be a Voxian myself, I despised the New Pacific Order and fought against them with all I had. Then I actually spoke to them for the first time, during the Karma War, and came to realise that they really weren't heartless monsters. Like all alliances, we have good and bad people, but seriously while we were #1 we didn't act any differently to how anyone else would, except perhaps that we [OOC] play this game [/OOC] better than many other people.

Oh, shock! Oh, horror! We're actually growing again, because *nobody* ever expected that!! Perhaps Karma actually considered that eventuality? Perhaps they gave us terms anyway, because of the mounting international pressures?



We issued no such Moldavi Doctrine. That was the New Sith Order. Oh, and please, be specific about what underlying messages there are in it? Have you read it? And how is it "open to interpretation?"



The unification of the red sphere? You've just been complaining about the Moldavi Doctrine, and now you're complaining that we're not only permitting other alliances to grow and flourish on red, we're actually befriending them? Can't have it both ways. Seriously, as I said today earlier on IRC, my sister can't kick my small dog without it being NPO's fault.



Revenge? Yes, quite possibly. We're human, we're motivated by that sort of thing, just like everyone else.



If Francoism merely changed to suit Vladimir and the New Pacific Order, you'd expect it to have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of flaws and contradictions. I dare you to name one. Have you even read Vladimir's works on Francoism?



"The Pacificans are coming!!!!!!! THE END IS NEAR!!!!!!"

Dear lord have mercy. What type of alliance have I joined

My apologies for the confusion with the moldavi doctrine, my bad, got them mixed up.

Any comment on the rest of my rebuttal?

We did not follow through. Sadly we allowed this to happen. Not my call though.

nope sorry, the rest of my oppinion still stands.

"I've got no rebuttal to your points, but NPO is still evil. waaah"

Nice troll.

Well, thank you. I would invite you to join us on ColdFront in #nsa and take the time to have a conversation with us. I would certainly enjoy an intelligent conversation with you, my only condition is that you be willing to enter with an open mind. I find it fascinating that people can call us evil without knowing us. I truly hope you'll take me up on my offer, my IRC nickname is FiremanDave[NPO]

[ooc]I would love that, it sounds like a lot of fun. unfortunatly I am currently on a government computer an am unable at this time to enter any chat rooms till I get home wich will be after this 12 hour shift and then some rest, but I think I will take you up on that offer later tonight[/ooc]

Right, so you know full well you got your facts mixed up. You know full well that most of the stuff you just said is utter garbage and of your own interpretation and contains less facts than even the most worthless pile of garbage ever.

To sum up your post, you're basically saying:

1. Karma is useless at war
2. We, the 'evil forces of hegemony' are just so because we tend to do the natural thing of rebuilding
3. We have a new moldavi doctrine (which isn't ours anyway)
4. Red Dawn, an economic and cooperative agreement, is a step to conquest
5. We will seek revenge (DOH!)
6. Francoism is something which each Emperor changes as he comes along. Honestly, do you even know what Francoism is???
7. Francoism creates a system where conquest is permanent (aka a way of life)


Did I miss anything? Oh, yes, I missed out the facts. But that's not my fault, because there really aren't any, are there?

I've never been a fan of the NPO, but I think that you're being a little ridiculous here. Yes, the NPO is recovering swiftly even under the biggest terms in the history of Bob. It's evidence that the NPO really has mastered this (OOC)game(/OOC). They're good at what they do, both in nation building and their foreign policy. Blaming them for all that is wrong in Bob is not fair to them. There have been plenty of other alliances that have allowed or assisted the NPO to exist the way they did. Without the supporting alliances, the NPO would not have been the same. Besides, I'd be glad if the NPO rearmed and went looking for blood. This place is getting boring again and we need to see some action.

Then you were turned to the darkside.



Oh yes that was totally expected, thats why the NPO should have been destroyed.




Yes ma'am, I have.



Agreed.

I really hope you're not being serious.......

* Francesca facepalms.



Nevermind that was exactly the sort of behaviour that NPO was opposed for.



Then please, illustrate some of its flaws and inconsistencies.



Once more, I hope this is satirical....


My apologies for biting your head off. I get tired of all the hatred sometimes, and I overreact. But I do think you are completely wrong on almost every single point.

Might I ask why you believe that we should be completely destroyed? Are we that scary? Are we nothing but evil creatures, destined to turn the game into our private playground?

I'm genuinely asking. If we weren't the strongest alliance in the game, and another was "evil", would you be baying for their blood as well?

No sir, my problem with the NPO is not the NPO herself, rather Francoism, an ideoligy that blatantly states it is against freedom of speech (On free speech by Z'ha'dum) and its twisting of the laws of nature to provide only security for loyalty as opposed to equality. Francoism is a system of oppression.

Francoism is a system that allows alliances to operate with maximum efficiently (at least, that is the professional opinion of Order officials, and given that they have been ruling Planet Bob for the last few years I think we can accept that what they have to say is pretty accurate.) It twists no laws of nature, rather it recognises reality and operates around it. It is only a system of oppression insomuch as that it is central to the continued existence of the Order, but then we delve into questions like "is the Order oppressive?" which I have already gathered your opinions on. Oh, and:

<+Francesca[NPO]> Someone respond to that guy's latest post
<+Francesca[NPO]> I can't even be bothered
<+Francesca[NPO]> http://images5.cafepress.com/product/37264...Color-White.jpg <-- If you can incorporate that picture somehow..

Comrade Zhadum argued for free speech, as he made clear in the conclusion of his work:

"We live in free speech, nothing the Order can do will stop that. The only way to stop free speech is to accept the push its "advocates" propound towards international government. When their vision of a world where they are allowed to say anything they want without fear of anything being said back to them is realized, that is how you will know free speech is dead. Until such a time, call the impostors, the fakers, and the phonies what they are, pretenders attempting to warp the meaning of freedom to their perverse and twisted ends of silencing all opposition to them. So long as we remember the price of free speech is others speaking freely, it will live on in this world. It is with that closing thought I ask you to stand by free speech and oppose those who would use the idea of free expression as a warped tool by which to silence their enemies."

Moreover, you seem to be complaining that Francoism doesn't endorse the Order extending its statehood over the entire globe in order to act as a world police. I'm not sure I understand how this is a criticism of Francoism's tyrannical nature. Indeed, if we did do such a thing I expect you would be here (rightfully) complaining about our violation of your sovereignty. Damned if we do, damned if we don't?

Beyond this your only concrete complaint seems to be that we are cooperating with other red alliances through Red Dawn. If this is the path to conquest as you claim, why are you not decrying every other major alliance in the world, since they are almost without exception a part of a colour unity bloc themselves (though I always knew that ODN lot were up to something).

[ooc]Who are you the reroll of and why should I even listen to you.[/ooc]

In other news, they tried, we survived, get over it.

Zhadum's work was nothing more than a justification of the use of force in speech, claiming that the use of force is a form of speech which I strongly disagree with.

Secondly, the uniting of economic power on one sphere is a way to have some form of control over the red shpere.

and lastly, as far as the other alliances go, they are just as bad, the reason I bring the NPO to light is because the NPO is the vessel of Francoism.

[OOC Vladimir I just want to say what an absaloute delight it is to speak with some one of your stature, your ideals are a great credit to this game, thanks for helping to make it so much fun.[/ooc]

This is actually a best case scenario.

Getting another faction into the mix can only promise for more drama and wars.


That is pretty much an impossible request. The existence of Fark and FAN confirms the inability to truly kills of an alliance that doesn't want to die. If it was indeed possible to finish alliances, many of the sides fighting for Karma would not have existed today to actually wage the war, so your wish to remove NPO from Planet Bob must go hand in hand with the removal of MK, Fark, FAN, NpO (We might have opted for it, was it even remotely possible), The Legion, GATO, GPA, Nordreich just to name a few.
I really do not wish for a world where the total destruction of an alliance is doable.

We should have pushed for No internal aid for a certain duration in the terms that would've at least hindered their efforts short term. Basically we were too soft with them. If I would of had it my way I would have continued the war, Attrition would have killed them off more than anything else.

I would start off by saying that the level of fear surrounding us from all quarters seems self-defeating. Was a major part of Karma propaganda not entrance to the glorious post-NPO world? A world where of multi-polar conflict flowed through the marble halls and fairness prevailed? As things stand it seems that there really is no life after the NPO; when we aren't at the party everyone just stands around in silence sipping the 2% beer out of the provided plastic cups, waiting awkwardly for us to get back. It's flattering, I admit, but nevertheless I cannot understand the urge to live through someone else, rather than living the dream yourself.


The central point being made is that free speech does not exist in a vacuum -- it has consequences. That is to say, if you call me a name I might like you less, might be less inclined to do you favours, might lessen diplomatic ties with your alliance; because speech conveys information that is important and has to be factored into our future actions. This may seem obvious, and indeed, seems to have worked its way into the 'common sense' of Planet Bob nowadays, but back when On Free Speech was written the popular idea was that someone should be able to say whatever they want with no consequences whatsoever -- because to suggest that you calling me names might damage our relationship would be an attack on your free speech.

We can see this context in Comrade Zhadum's article:

"It is not free speech they wish for, it is the ability to speak freely with absolutely no consequences for what they say. They wish to be able to troll, bluster, threaten, and attack while not allowing anyone else to do the same in return to them. Those who most loudly swear by free expression are those who invariably do the most to limit it."

Of course, he then went on to discuss the real attack on free speech, which was the long-standing desire (advanced seriously first in early 2006 and last in 2008 by Vox and their 'Bill of Rights' (ironically designed to be enforced by none other than the NPO)) to create a world government with laws and enforcement mechanisms -- an idea similarly combated by myself in 2007.

It is important to note at this point that the Order never actually attacked anyone for anything that they said -- though the contrary was often perceived since harsh words usually accompany harsh actions. So, what is Comrade Zhadum actually saying when he defends one's right to attack another over whatever reason they see fit? He is saying that in order for the world to remain free we must defend the independence of the international sphere -- the ability for nations and alliances to go to war for whatever reason they desire without a global police force trying to arrest them. This isn't to then say that they should be able to do so without consequences since the same rules of discourse apply -- other nations and alliances should be able to respond to the attack, and so forth ad infinitum. It isn't always pretty, it doesn't always lead to actions you agree with, but that's freedom for you.

So what you are complaining about here in not an attack on free speech, but an attack on tyranny and a defence of sovereignty and international anarchy.


Perhaps it is the other alliances that are controlling us? It was the other alliances that created the (purely intergovernmental aka. non-controlling) organisation and asked us to join, after all. Perhaps we have telepathic control of other alliances as well? Would explain how we can be blamed for many of the things we are...

Or perhaps there are very good individual reasons for entering such a bloc to remove conflict over things like the senate and trade; this would certainly explain why every other alliance did it as well. Seems there is some bias in assuming that we must be the evil ones, or indeed, that there must be evil at all.

I stopped listening almost from the start, but I started rofling right about here.
Here, you equate the laws of nature to ignorance. Physicists the world over would not take kindly to being called ignorant.
I would publicly torture both your advisor and your tutor for allowing such a poorly thought out "grand" speech to be penned (let alone distributed) in the first place.

Better luck next time?

I agree, it is the NPO and Francoist thought that have made our endeavors more enriching in that having a major enemy to destroy would mark the end of life on planet bob, may that day never come, but it certainly is fun trying.



I agree that free speech does not exist in a vacuum and there are consequences and rightfully so. There is an old saying, first convince yourself, then a friend then an enemy and if it stands, it is truth. Zhadum's work however provides for the justification to eliminate the truth, i.e. we have a theological discussion, I win, so you attack and wipe me out, so because I am ZI'd I now have fear of disagreance (if that is a word) which would be the oppression of freedom of speech. An agree or die policy.



Well I guess you just shut me up on this portion, I have no rebuttal sir, I agree, even if I do not like it. (/Kamino cries his little eyes out) So then I guess then I would not so much disagree with Zhadum but rather I find some flaws in his statement that can be misconstrued and may be abused.

May I say sir that you have eloquence in your statements and I am very privileged to have had this opportunity to converse with you?

I apologize sir, I should have been a little more clear; I meant the ignorance of the younger players.

So after this little back-and-forth, you now love NPO with all your heart, right? I have just the thing for you, my friend!

(for those of you who are too lazy to click the [OOC] link [/OOC] it is a guide to filling out a membership application at the New Pacific Order.)

LOL, no my dear, I have no intention of joining the NPO, nor do I love the NPO, the direction of your emperor is not the course I would seek and I prefere my Full Democracy instead where I have a vote and an oppinion and there by directly contribute to the course of my alliance, I find it better suits my nation to have these things than if some one were to tell me when to go to war for a cause I do not support. In my full democracy even if I loose I still had a voice and a vote and I will remain loyal and supportive to democratic principles. While I may have a different view on the article that was written by Zhadum than I did before, I still hold my view that 'ignorant' (for lack of a better word) nations are being sold on defense and money alone. I think my signature explains exactly where I stand on the issue. By selling my liberty for security I would loose both in that I am not free or safe when an emperor sends me to war to die.

We are sent nowhere to die, we fight for our comrades of our own choice. Additionall, every single member of Pacifica has an influence on our direction and an opinion on various issues. Nevertheless, your decision not to apply saddens me greatly.

They Won.



You were let off lightly.



Already have, good luck on rolling the people who were in Karma in a few years.

How is it that every member has a choice to fight? and how do they have an influance, the NPO is not a direct democracy that I am aware of.

Bur friend, voting is such a primitive and superficial means of democracy and liberty. What the Order pursues is so much more real.

I don't believe it requires a democracy for every member to have an influence on the direction of an alliance, but if it's democracy you're looking for, our Council is elected regularly (in facts, our elections were just held, in which every member of the Body Republic who so desired placed their votes for their desired candidates.

If every member didn't want to fight when the Order went to war, they wouldn't join the Order.

and what pursuit is that sir?

so what do you believe allows every member to have an influance on the direction?

Kamino, I have to ask you this. You love your way of life with your "Democracy" and your beliefs in your way of Alliance life. How is that any different then our love of our way of life? Why should OUR way of life be attacked and wiped out from the face of Bob?

Personally I think "lolDemocracy" is overrated and useless on Bob. Does that mean, since I dont like it I should go and write ignorant speeches demanding lolDemocracy be destroyed?

Also you say that you don't blame the NPO, yet you hate Francoism... you do realize there is no way to separate the two? Without one there will not be the other.

I would also like to know, why do you personally have such a fear/hatred of us?

Indeed.

I've occasionally made jokes with Dilber and Triyun about how the Council is a sign of the NPO becoming overrun by democracy.

In all alliances, the ordinary members have a strong influence on how the alliance conducts itself. Without them, alliance leadership doesn't have any power, and so it must take their concerns into account or find itself ruling over nobody but itself.

This is even true in Invicta, possibly the most centrally-controlled dictatorship on Bob.

We pool our sovereignty under an Emperor in what may be deemed an autocratic fashion, but so too do we live a fundamentally democratic way of life, with the Emperor acting as a funnel through which the will of Pacifica flows as a single, powerful voice.

It is my belief that many of your newer members are either unaware of democracy on planet bob or are discouraged from joining such through peer pressure the same way you put quotations on LOLDEMOCRACY and smearing it. I personally believe that you do not need to post anything about direct democracy because when we get even larger more members will take notice and leave dictatorships for democracy which in the end will be viewed as a threat to dictators power and they will attempt to wipe us out, but if any one feels compelled to write about democracies I would love to read it and discuss it.

I do realize that the NPO and Francoism are one in the same, maybe I should not have differentiated previously.

[[OOC I have to answer this last one OOC. There are two reasons I hate the NPO, one was the Modalvi doctrine, showing the oppression of a dictatorship, and secondly because destroying the NPO would in fact mark the end of the game, what point is there playing if the NPO is gone, like I said before, I hope it never happens, but it sure is fun trying.[[/OOC]]


[[OOC]] I have to answer your other questions OOC,

Democracy is an ineffective form of government on Planet Bob, because you are essentially giving the same amount of power to ignorant noobs that you are to older and experienced members who actually know what they are doing. But this veers dangerously close to being off-topic.

Ma'am, if I were to say that all nations on planet bob were shintoist would you agree? Of course not, so why is it that an emperor can make a statement for every last person and its ok? I see no difference.

you do make an excelent point dear, but what of the few who really know whats going on? Many in a democracy look up to those that know what there talking about and make no advance untill afterwards. why should those who know whats going on be forced to go through a meritocracy. They did after all join a game to be a ruler, not a citizen.

Through our unification under our Emperor, we have eliminated the chaos and conflict that we find both in nature and in other alliances, and this has allowed us to develop as a truly united, meritocratic alliance, where the best rise and everyone is free to pusue their desire.

Francoism and the Order have thus been defined by their ability to overcome the chaos that has kept others in disarray. Francoism has given us the analysis that is required in order to steer ourselves through the treacherous tides, and our Francoist history has given us the ship capable of crashing through the waves to emancipation.

One must first act as a citizen, before acting as a ruler. Once people have proven themselves as citizens and worked their way up a meritocracy, they may become a leader.

[OOC] Essentially, democracy is a form of government that operates on the principles that all people are equal. The thing is, in Cyber Nations, people are not equal. Therefore, democracy simply does not work, in this game. [OOC]

So the way I read that, is through your submission you do as he says and you follow on blind faith regardless of the costs.

I just have a little bit of a problem with submission personally.

Rather, because of our Francoist philosophy, Pacifica is unified in its desires.

Our newer members dont know about Democracy??? How many Sanctioned Alliances are Democracies? All but 2 maybe 3... (WTF confuses me ). So how is it that TWO out of 12 alliances is a threat to democracy? We don't lure in members with a false pretense on anything, if people are coming to the NPO they have plenty of fore knowledge about who and what we are. Our application process alone takes 2- 5 days, unless you are special, and then there is an Academy that we explain Francoism, and that we teach members our way of life. If they choose not to stay that is their choice. So there is nothing stopping them from leaving if they don't like it.

I would like to know how we peer pressure members into NOT choosing a Democratic Alliance... we are out numbered 5 to 1 in the Sanctioned Alliances alone.

EDIT: Bad maths.. thanks Haf

DOC is not the only democratic alliance. There are countless big democratic alliances on Planet Bob. Always have been. And yet there are still countless big autocratic alliances as well.

-Bama