Sakura's version of events leading up to and during the war that (I believe) HeinousOne dubbed the "Popcorn War". (Times are in PDT -- add two hours to get Server time)

T-2 days (before the first IS nation DoW)
Plans were discussed about raiding CG (amounted to "12 member AA, no protector, no treaties, lets raid 'em".

Everyone: Sure, I'm bored anyway.

T-24 hours
Target lists assigned.

21:50 (right before and after update.)
IS nations raid CG, with about half of CG's nations ending up in anarchy in the initial assault. (Yes, CG nations were quadded, and yes CMs, planes, etc, were used, this isn't about that -- okay?)

22:40ish, TC decides to give CG an 'emergency protectorate', applying only to IS.

23:00ish, CG's FA guy approaches KX asking for peace, a white peace is agreed upon. This ends the (tech/land/punitive) raid.

04:00ish
One of the two CG members I fought attacked me (remember, my perspective?)

04:30ish
Francesca comes into IS's channel asking for gov, and queries me.

A little later:
Francesca decides to extort money from IS, and makes the (by now) infamous ultimatum on the OWF. I watch the train wreck of a (OOC)thread (/OOC) repeatedly throughout the day. Preferring not to put in my two cents, as everyone seems to love to put a twist to my words, to infer that I said something bloody absurd.

About 20:30: KX comes online, and 'negotiations' with Francesca/CG start.

20:32-21:00: Francesca repeatedly demands 150 million, and when asked for actual damages by both KX and Jason8 (the latter mediated that 'negotiation'), she kept dodging the issue.

21:00-22:00: Francesca "lowers" her demand back to the initial 105 million. (Keep in mind, to my knowledge, no IS nation had attacked CG since the white peace at this point), Francesca and HellScream still keep dodging the issue of actual damage done.

22:00 CG declares war on IS.

22:01 deSouza fires the first nuke in the Popcorn War, at King Najibbles.

22:07-22:30: Nukes fly from IS's arsenal (note: IS hadn't launched any nukes before CG declared war on IS.)

22:30-00:00 (Second day of the "Popcorn War")
KX and Francesca reopen negotiations, this time with Doitzel mediating.

00:00 (roughly):
Francesca leaves the negotiation table, leaving HellScream, who promises a cease-fire "until Fran gets back" (IMO, that is no cease-fire, because (OOC) game mechanics (/OOC) make it warfare. Especially seeing as I'm pretty sure that IS used up all their land, air, and nuclear attacks right after the DoW by CG).

02:19 Francesca declares war on me (during the cease-fire (remember the point above?))

04:03 nickkayboy nukes Sakura (again, during a cease-fire).

Presumably this was all during negotiations -- which means that CG was engaging in hostile acts *during* negotiations.

Anyway, after the cease-fire was negotiated a *second* time, (one white peace, two cease-fires, if you're keeping score) deSouza spies away one of Punkman's nukes.

Also, I note how everyone was going on and on about how "IS was violating their own charter", and yet little/no comment was made about CG violating theirs. Moreover;


Note the word 'individual'. This section wasn't relevant to the discussion in the first place.

Lastly, in Francesca's ultimatum to IS, she quoted a *partial* log of her conversation with me, so without further adieu, the full, unedited, and unabridged log:

If I remember, the first nuke was launched from zigbigabalskajghadlg, who was a rogue flying the IS AA.

Zig was ghosting IS. Not a 'rogue'.

That same rogue so happened to attack a TC member threatening to nuke which he did. I'm assuming trying to start a global war.

What he did is considered rogue actions..

FYI, that same rogue nuked a member of IS and is sanctioned via our request

That is IS business, I don't know what you guys do. I was pointing out what had happened to a TC member.

Our friends? We should teach Francesca not to speak for us.

For the uninitiated, Sakura is no longer a member of IS, and she speaks for herself. IS has no official comment on this, uh, commentary.

This pretty much seals Fran as the worst alliance leader in recent history. Anyone who followed her should be ashamed.

The most important part of this timeline is missing. That be the time in which HeinousOne dubbed the war the "Popcorn War". Surely that is important stuff as you spoke of it in your opening line!

Good luck figuring that out though.

I couldn't remember that -- and didn't feel like trudging through that train wreck to find it.

Outside of damaging Francesca's reputation and/or perceived public image, what is the intent here? (I'm asking since I think I'm missing the point).

To exhibit her side of the story, I would assume.

I'd missed the clarification that this was not an official communication on behalf of Internet Superheroes, my apologies (OOC: stupid mobile device doesn't permit rapid posting).

I think that's relevant, myself.



Wrong timing. The protectorate came later. Plus, we didn't approach you asking for white peace. You offered it to us so that you could walk off with our tech. The person who gave it to you did so without consulting me or the regent, and had no authority to grant you white peace. I vetoed the idea as soon as I got onto IRC and discovered this entire mess.



Loaded language here.... "extort" meaning "requests reparations", "infamous" meaning "the ultimatum that everyone hailed because we didn't allow you to walk over us" etc etc.

I merely stated that I didn't have the figures, because I was using my computer from school.



Or rather, you had already attacked us en masse using techniques that were not used in standard tech raids, which could be considered war.



Zigbigadorlou did that.



That's correct. I'd been awake for around 35 hours, I believe. I'm not superhuman, I do need sleep.



I returned after a short break, and had not been informed of the ceasefire. Regardless, the ceasefire was only until I returned. And by attacking you, I had obviously returned.



Yeah, because I'd come back by that stage, as this record indicates.



Where did we do that?



I don't see what you're trying to achieve with that log.



I said it didn't rule out the possibility. I didn't state your decision on whether to help us or not, for at that time there was no decision made.

I didn't bother checking logs, hence the 'ish'. And Sup4l33t3ki11a did approach IS for peace. The peace was granted, end of story as far as I was concerned.




I believe that explains the usage of the word 'extort' quite nicely.



I would have had the actual figures ready.



I see you latched on to the word 'tech', and ignored the word 'punitive'.



As I already said, Zig was ghosting IS at the time. He was even attacking Tron Paul, and KX asked for, and got Zig sanctioned on black. That doesn't sound like how IS would treat one of their members. So, Zig aside, deSouza launched the first nuke. Not IS.



35 hours awake, and two asleep.... Am I the only one seeing a problem with this?



So.... You sleep for two hours, come back, attack Sakura, then find out that HellScream had granted a cease-fire 'until Fran returned'. And, as I said in the initial post, that doesn't sound like anything I'd call a 'cease-fire'.



When your member(s) first approached IS for peace. -.-




And I don't see what you were attempting to achieve when you first dumped it. If you're going to dump a log of me, at least have the courtesy to talk to me in a public channel.

i liked the part where you fell off my "people who may have something intelligent to say" list

They were quadded and cms planes were used, but it isnt about that.... but it is because you threw in at the end a qualifier (bolded). The charter also states tech raiding rules, 2 grounds and peace, but from your own words we know that the very action in the begining, the offensive was a violation of thier own charter.

So by holding onto the notion that this was a raid (your words), if we believe your version the entire alliance chose to violate thier own charter?

It would have been much more refreshing to see something like this:

"we decided to have some fun because we were bored and were going to roll this alliance, they fought back and out played us politically which ended with us paying them reps."

Humility is a rare trait, it would have been nice to see though. Xander has it correct, might be best to let this episode fade away but Im up for more lulz. please post more

Reading the OP informs me that IS launched a premeditated war against another alliance because they looked small and weak and hoped they could get away with it if it proved unpopular by calling it a "tech raid."

Frankly, I don't care if you call it a tech raid or a pajama party, whether you launch one ground attack or quad with CM's and Aircraft; if your alliance organizes an attack on another alliance, you have declared war on them.

IS launched a war against CG, not only without ANY justification but also without the common decency to make a declaration of war. Quit whining that you got hammered for it. You got off very easy with only a few days of war and not paying even half your reps*.

People seem to be forgetting that CG accepted Banned Member. That's a valid CB on anyone in my opinion.

Bored or not, raid should have never happened. Francesca was well known to be mouthy and willing to make public spectacles. It's not enough note that the target is small and without allies. You have to look at the individual nations and what level of OWRP involvement they have.

Even if you decided to go for it, you should have pre-consulted with allies, perhaps even sent in a couple people in advance to see how they would react. Set it up right and you could have even made it look like CG over reacted to a simple raid and you were merely responding.

Simply put, you got the tables turned on you and lost control of the situation. Meanwhile, key members of CG walked away from the alliance with a wad of cash and screwed both you and their alliance mates.

Lesson learned I hope.

Are you referring to Baseballer? Because he came to Invicta, and was deleted, weeks before this. Or am I wrong?

Also, it's been said that zigbigwhatever was a ghost who also nuked IS nations. But I'd say that if you're nuked by anyone flying an AA, especially one that there's already tensions with, you're going to think that your're being nuked by that alliance and probably aren't going to gather a whole lot of intelligence about him/her.

You're wrong.


Then I can imagine you can see why he thought it'd be a good idea to ghost our AA. Zig isn't an idiot; he knows how to cause trouble when the opportunity presents itself.

I just got a few teeny tiny things with this...


See, I have yet to find a start raid button on the control panel all nation rulers use to interact with their subjects. There is however a declare war command. The Popcorn war didn't start with CG's declaration. It started when IS as an alliance attacked CG. Maybe that's just crazy old me.



I really hope IS doesn't follow that great big hunk of steamed sophistry.

So you waited until everyone finally shut up about this and it was all over and then, instead of moving on and repairing the damage, you reignite the whole argument?

That kind of forward thinking is what got you into this mess in the first place.

Its lolpink...did you expect anything else?

Was their any point to this any way?

Here is a thought, how about just saying "God we made a stupid decision" and be done with it. As for the accusation that people are latching onto the word "tech" in rference to the raid, YOU used the IS tech raiding clause in yoiur OP, and highlighted the word INDIVIDUAL, as being the reason the raid rules did not apply. IS as I can read, has no official policy on "punitive raids". Nor does any other alliance that I know of. You know why? Those are what we call WARS. When you use military to affix a punishment on another person or alliance in this game, it is a war. You can try all of the fancy word play you want. Doesnt change anything.Instead of letting CGs obvious failures consume them, as the whole world knew it would, you decided you could do what you wanted, and nobody would care. Problem was, alot of somebodys cared. You (and by you, i mean IS, cuz you were IS at the time), consolidated a pseudo-favorable public opinion of CG that they could feed off to win the war. IS made themselves look like politically incompetent fools, and quite honestly, made their allies in PWN look the same. Forethought FTW!

I dunno if you're right about him, but it's not him I'm talking about.

Actually, I waited until I left IS because of a gag-order that was in place. (Followed by the IS-CG NAP.)

Wow this was really helpful informative and made things much better......

Poor NSO, now anybody can throw around their weight.

By PB conventional standards, in general, 1 or more is considered an alliance. I'm the one, along with nueva vida, that started the whole "member count is irrelevent" thing, and while you can get away with it, don't ever say that it's conventional PB standard that 15 and under isn't an alliance, when half the alliances don't tech raid at all, half that do only allow it on those that have no alliance affiliation, 1/4 is 5 or under (or some variation thereof.. 2 or under in some cases), and the rest are 5 and over, usually to 10, very few go to 15.

Regarding the statement, "15 members + no protector = not an alliance"



Sometimes the lack of skill I see in the area of diplomacy on Planet Bob totally amazes me.

What what, now? Is there a different NSO? Because if a friendship existed somewhere I wasn't aware of it.

I'm sure that my compatriots will agree that sentiment towards CG within the New Sith Order was anything but friendly.

Mm..... I have the problem with the NSO part. "Our Friends"? huh, interesting. I highly doubt this but I think I will await Moldavi's response to that one.

It's called a bluff and it worked. Recall at the time there was a fair amount of back and forth about Pink alliances coming to the aid of their own and the whole RAD affair was still fresh in people's minds, plus the Moldavi Doctrine II.

Of course IS *could* have simply point blank asked NSO through a back channel what their intentions were and the bluff would have been exposed, but no one thought to do that.

Eh, I had a feeling that NSO might be interested in jumping in, but I also felt they didn't think much of CG, so it would be kind of odd for them to do it. There were bigger alliances we thought were going to jump in on CG's side; however, NSO wasn't one we strongly considered.

honestly the most ridiculous part of the whole thing is that he considers a protectorate agreement a necessary part of being an alliance.

just goes back to what i've said before; these retarded standards are nothing more than the evolution of old standards under the pressure of greed. people used to tech raid nations who were 2 weeks inactive and unaligned, but they were too slow to get slots so they said "1 week inactive is good enough"... then any unaligned nation was targeted... then 5-man alliances... now we have the modern pinnacle of "15 members and no treaty". what next? anyone not in the sanction race doesn't count as an alliance?

Some would say that goes on already....

"A little later:
Francesca decides to extort money from IS, and makes the (by now) infamous ultimatum on the OWF. I watch the train wreck of a (OOC)thread (/OOC) repeatedly throughout the day. Preferring not to put in my two cents, as everyone seems to love to put a twist to my words, to infer that I said something bloody absurd.

About 20:30: KX comes online, and 'negotiations' with Francesca/CG start.

20:32-21:00: Francesca repeatedly demands 150 million, and when asked for actual damages by both KX and Jason8 (the latter mediated that 'negotiation'), she kept dodging the issue.

21:00-22:00: Francesca "lowers" her demand back to the initial 105 million. (Keep in mind, to my knowledge, no IS nation had attacked CG since the white peace at this point), Francesca and HellScream still keep dodging the issue of actual damage done."

^^^^ from the OP.


Well Sakura. Where do I start? Your perspective is lacking in most things, quite prominently in actual truths.

I must firstly correct your assesment of 150mill being extortion. You clearly misunderstand the concept that in war, people lose money, tech, and infra. Not to mention soldiers and land.
Then there is nuclear war. Please understand that *alot* more is lost during nuclear war. I personally had no such pleasure from IS as to be nuked, but I did however take other loses which amounted easily to over 50mill. That is just be personally, I am quite sure that desouza lost alot more than myself. The actual damages done to CG were alot higher than the pety sum of 150mill. If you lack the comperhension to understand that then may god take mercy on you.

Also, I do not recall getting peace with IS?

Session Start: Thu Aug 20 17:34:44 2009
Session Ident: KingXander[IS]
01[17:34] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> hey KingXander[IS]
01[17:34] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> why are you guys attacking CG?
01[17:38] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> hey
01[17:38] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> is the guy attacking me authorised to do so, and thus a rogue?
[17:43] <KingXander[IS]> hello
01[17:44] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> hey, can you please explain why CG is under attack by IS nations?
01[17:44] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> I am trying to deduce if it is a war or tech raiding, in which case we plesantly request that you stop
[17:45] <KingXander[IS]> its not a war
[17:45] <KingXander[IS]> or else there would have been a DoW
01[17:45] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> then can you please peace out?
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> send peace if you guys want peace
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> its just a raid
01[17:53] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> it seems like an attack against us
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> and sorry, but my modem is !@#$
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> which is why i keep disconnecting
01[17:53] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> mkay...
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> like i said before
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> if we planned to attack
[17:53] <KingXander[IS]> we woulda done a dow
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> [17:44] <inzignificant> 20 million and we peace
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> [17:45] <tronpaul[IS]> either that, or francesca goes into anarchy for a period of 7 humiliating days
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> [17:45] <tronpaul[IS]> and collects each day
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> can you confirm or deny this?
[17:54] <KingXander[IS]> that guy
[17:54] <KingXander[IS]> 's not in my alliance
[17:54] <KingXander[IS]> he's impersonating a member tho
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> ic
01[17:54] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> wont reply to him
[17:55] <KingXander[IS]> k
01[17:55] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> it seems that several of CG's members have been attacked
[17:55] <KingXander[IS]> no !@#$
[17:55] <KingXander[IS]> it was a raid
01[17:56] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> mkay..
01[17:56] <Sup4l33t3ki11a[CG]> and you will all peace out?
Session Close: Fri Aug 21 00:00:00 2009

Those are the logs I have of my communications with IS and I do not recall negotiating a peace deal with them. Please get your facts straight in the future my friend.

Fail perspective is fail

And did in the past .

CN since it´s invention was, is and will be a playground for one rule, might makes right in every possible shade.

My bolding.

Tech raid or land raid? There seems uncertainty on this point.
And do alliances have different rules for Land Raids?

As Steelrat said, it's all about 'might makes right' imho. That makes membership count a bit less important.
I don't think techraiding is immoral though. CN is in essence a [ooc]nation simulator[/ooc] and war happens to be part of it, as is scarcity. But if you want to raid, you should also accept the consequences. Tech raid gone wrong => reparations/being gangbanged by 3 others in return.

OT:
I agree with Heft, it wasn't that smart to bring this up again.

Considering that your alliance later surrendered to them, you were probably wrong?

Face it: they are were an alliance and they were able to prove it to you, with facts.
Your ill-conceived criterion didn't save you from your PR and political debacle: you'd better learn from your mistakes or you'll be doomed to repeat them over and over.

FYI, I'm a rogue.

also, lawl at posting my logs.
heh

So basically, you picked someone who looked weak to bully, got the tables turned on you, and decides to show up here and complain about it?

forget it