Yesterday, with a non unprecedented action, Internet Superheroes started an (apparently) non-motivated attack on Crimson Guard, taking advantage of CG's lack of "documented" treaties, apparently hoping to crush a weak victim.

IS already got the explicit "just in case" promise of military support from Poison Clan, AFAIK their strongest direct ally, while CG collected promises of moral non-military support only, with the only possible exception of other very small parties.

I personally don't believe to the theory of the "tech raid":

• IS hasn't an history of organized tech raids on whole alliances;
• It has already been stated and not denied that IS adopted non-raiding tactics and techniques (in opposition to its own policies on raids), using blockades, spy ops against nukes, etc;
• IS didn't use any "typical" reference to the attacks being raids, in the 16 War Reason of their update blitz, whereas 10 out of 12 of its previous war declarations against other parties include some reference of that type;
• Crimson Guard is a 10+ members alliance with evident political ties, and not an ideal raid target: the "CN community" already showed its discontent about the aggression.
• Despite the difference in Nation Strength, this attack won't be "profitable" for IS: they're going to lose a lot of infrastructure and to eat some nukes.

I'm thus left to the political reason.
As IS didn't bother to inform the community about the aggression, one could think that it's a questionable political reason that they would be ashamed to share with the public. However, being the IS the IS, I don't think that this is a good explanation either. I also don't believe that IS has any specific reason of grievance against CG in itself, otherwise they would have aired it to the public, as it would have been their interest to do.
The only left option I can think of, to justify IS's "silence" over this matter, is that there's some sort of conspiracy behind this conflict, with its objective being someone or something different from CG.

I can imagine wars against a "random" party "just to state a point" (about war itself, to change the political landscape, to shake and a provoke, etc) but again I can't imagine IS doing it (at least, not without being vocal about it).

I thus conclude that this attack is probably a conspiracy to hit someone else. Not counting the small parties linked to CG, and not counting the NPO - that is not formally linked to CG, and is anyway very well protected - the only other party that I can imagine to be the target of this action is the NSO, that not so far ago issued a "global ODP" doctrine (the new Moldavi Doctrine) and that was recently involved in a (very discussed) war against RAD, treaty partner of IS.

Of course, I can't know the level of involvment of anybody in this (alleged) conspiracy, if any. In fact, there is no "hard" proof that this conspiracy actually exists. Assuming that it is more than a mere hypotesis, anyway, it looks like it has been clumsily executed and that not "everybody" was informed in time: PC's statement of support might have wasted it...

Finally, my take on this issue.
If I was responsible of an alliance with ties with IS I'd work to cut said ties ASAP. They've shown a lot of irresponsibility, in my humble opinion, and they're going to be a liability and an headache for their entire existence (that admittedly, might be not "so much" long). If there's a conspiracy behind this, I'd also go around asking questions, and cutting ties with everybody that had or participated in that "great" idea.
This isn't the way to pursue one's political goals: not only such an attitude would be very questionable, it is guaranteed to bring a bitter doom in the long run...


Thoughts?

I personally believe that we were intended as bait to get NSO involved, where they would be destroyed when Athens came in through PC's treaty with them. Despite the fact that it wouldn't have worked, because CnG didn't support IS in this. SuperFriends might also have got involved through RoK.

Also, we have a lot more military support than you might imagine.

If its a tech raid do they have in thier policy a "no bawing" clause when the target fights back? CG happened to fight back, which included coming to the OWF and now we have PC coming in to pledge military support if needed for IS?

Idiots.

If its a DOW fine, do it and be done but the running around with this "tech raid" montra is pretty dam funny. The raid target fought back and now they need to have thier allies pledge support should they get rolled?

Idiots.

Also the NSO angle? Thats giving them an awful lot of credit IMHO, did I mention I think they are idiots? But hey why not, its the new brave world anything is possible. I would happily admit I am wrong if that is the case (you know retract the whole idiots commentary) that would be even more entertaining !

This has been mentioned previously. You are giving pink too much credit, though.

I think too much credit is being given to IS here.... firstly I know several members have some rather "far out" ideas toward CN and they most probebly thought it would be fun to roll a much smaller alliance without treaty's and that they asumed was perhaps unpopular in some circles. ... as can be seen many people may not of necessarilly rated CG as one of their favourite alliances but when they are abused like they have been here that is irellevant... if anything IS have just pushed the popularity rating of CG through the roof. Great work IS im sure your enjoying the lulz now (*insert sarcasm here ... just in case it wasn't evident)

I don't think it's giving them too much credit. If it was bait for the dirty Sith, then it's rather transparent and (and no offense to them,) amateurish. Also along the lines of if it was, from the first few posts I saw from the dirty Sithlings, they picked up on that particular angle right off. Jedi and Sith may be on opposite sides of the spectrum but I'll give them enough credit to say that nobody will catch them in such a clumsy trap.

I doubt we ever have a full answer for this. I tend to think the dirty Sith trap is the most probable answer though. It's about the only thing that makes any sort of sense.

Take a look at IS's political ties, they have few treaties and it's pretty obvious they don't care much for getting involved in politics. They probably did it as a training exercise or for fun, they may well have done it because they don't like CG, CG isn't a well liked alliance and really in this situation the only reason they have support is because IS is liked even less.

No conspiracy.

Not really. CG hasnt gotten magically popular. The only thing that has happened is that IS is recieving a beatdown for giving Francesca something she wanted. She was "rather bored" and now IS has answered her prayers. Lets also not forget that ->some<- of those honorable alliances who only attack because they have a personal vendetta against IS for some reason or another and have found an excuse through CG.

Didn't we already have this issue with The family? Only it didn't get quite the same MHA diplomatic respose? I'm confused?

This is the same conclusion we quickly came to. It was an attempt at exacting revenge against us for taking RAD to the woodshed. I wouldn't put it past IS to set up such an obvious trap, but it's also entirely likely that their allies conspired with them.

How do you call "getting slaughtered by NSO and her Frostbite allies and their allies"revenge? The conspiracy plot is not plausible, unless you call IS idiots, and Xander is anything but an idiot.

If we had declared war on IS in support of CG, the rest of PWN (and others, I think) could have declared on us in support of IS. Not only is this theory plausible, it's the only one that really makes any sense.

I think what some people want is not the war itself, but the power over others that comes with it. I'm rather bored. Does that mean I want to be tech raided? Well, maybe. Does that also mean I want to utilize and mobilize all the military power and political support I can get in the event of such an attack, to force my enemy into submission? Yes.

Well. Lets say you call out that you are bored on the OWF, and a very high, very powerful individual who is very popular raids you. Will the political support be as much? not likely. I was simply saying that this isnt as much of a rally to save someone as it is to hurt someone.

Since when is Invicta small?

I think that would generally be the case in any situation similar to this. Unknown underdog gets attacked. Earns automatic sympathy points even though people had previously known nothing about them. The aggressor is seen as having pulled off a dick move--some people rally to show support, mainly because of their distaste of the aggression. I don't think that fact detracts from the value of the political support behind the underdog alliance at all. Plenty of value in wanting to "hurt" alliances that pull off dick moves.

The "wrong" situation I guess would be people cheering on the popular player who does something similar, when decrying them (like right now) would be the more "appropriate" response.

I disagree with you there. There are a myriad of reasons why someone might support Crimson Guard in this matter that aren't simply that they do not like IS. Smaller alliances might look around and ask which one of them is next and step up now, others might have some compassion for CG based on how this particular episode has gone down, and still more might just like folks in CG and want to help them.

Let's take me, I didn't know who or really give a hoot who IS was prior to yesterday. I also didn't really know, personally, anyone in CG. However, as yesterday happened I found some sympathy towards the folks of CG. I'll admit to not being fans of them before, but nobody deserves to get curbstomped for no good reason, and being small and treaty-less doesn't constitute a good reason to me. So I did something I never do, I put on an idiot hat and mocked IS all day long.

Why? Not because I particular cared to hurt them (to be fair I also didn't particular mind it if they did get hurt,) but any sort of pressure on IS would help relieve the pressure they were sticking on CG.

/though, while we're on that road, I did go overboard on IS and pink yesterday. Since now the situation has changed up quite dramatically, I'll say I'll apologize to pink for that. I'm sure you understand what I was doing and all and you might very well do the same things. Though, if it makes you feel better, I'm probably gonna have a wee little duel with a PC boy in a week or so. You can have some fun watching us nuke each other. He'll probably win though, I'm fairly average at war and he's pretty good at it.

CG isnt a popular alliance. IS is just less popular. People mildly do not like them. What you're calling sympathy for CG is nothing but loathing for IS in the CG-IS scenario. ->Some<- dont rally to the support of the underdog, just the chance to rop apart someone they dont like.

What I am trying to say is that some of the political support behind CG isnt because they like CG. Isnt because they are the underdog. Its because they now have an opportunity to rip apart IS.

Or...

1. Alliances have organized "training exercises" against small alliances for a very long time. There is therefore nothing new about this attack, except that IS fumbled it in the P.R. arena and should never have attacked an alliance that contains OWF regulars in the first place.

2. NSO is not criminally stupid and they can read. IS has enough dangling treaty strings that the bait would appear totally unappetizing. What's more, NSO has Frostbite backing them up--the ambush would very quickly evolve into a much larger war with the ambushers likely finding their outside allies not particularly interested in joining in. Anyone smart enough to set this up as a trap would realize all this and therefore while it would have made an interesting IRC convo it would have gone no further.

3. You could just as easily make the case that this incident (which started as described in #1) is being manipulated to draw PC in and when that happens NSO would "ride to the rescue", garnering all sorts of positive PR as they smack down those "rascally tech raiders".

This was all great fun last night and indeed IS screwed the pooch. But I fail to see why this raid/war/police action/whatever merits the tin foil hat treatment.

If superfriends EVER gets involved in helping out a pink team alliance that is a part of pwn or pwnage, I will leave MA rather than help one of those worthless alliances out.

If you don't mind my asking, who are you thinking wants to rip apart IS?

So you are saying that people in CN do not behave according to what is right and wrong, but mearly use events as an excuse to attack those they dislike?

I'd like to thik I would stand up for what is right regardles of who was attacked.

Well, considering recent events, I'm not surprised that this is the case. I mean, they have a perfectly good reason to oppose IS, augmented with unrelated grudges or not. If opportunity comes knocking...

to KingDrunkWino:

I personally hold nothing against either of these alliances. I do support tech raiding but a raider has to pay if he gets caught with his pants down. So this war is on the fault of IS. However, it has quickly come to another bandwagon in the era of bandwagons that we have. Yet, unlike most, which would usually occur with people such as Opethian, where treaties arent needed to show that people do care for the one maned people, that this war has more than just that.

IS is funny in my book. In others, they'd rather shut thier mouth for them. In Wentworth's case he says this in the Recognition of Hostilitied thread:



He goes on to post a DoS where he says he promised to defend unarmed alliances a month ago. I promised to stop speeding at 3am in the morning to an officer but I dont expect people to hold me to that. I am only taking up this case simply because it was stated publicly. I could go around places looking for people who have found a distaste for IS on these forums and show the relation between the DoS's and the disgruntled parties, but I have things to do.

So, did some people come out in the defense of CG? Sure. Does the whole bunch deserve an honorable title for destroying IS? No. Some people came out on lolpink night to simply stick it to IS.

Never claimed differently, just pointing out the flip side to that coin where some folks came out solely to support Crimson Guards.

What is right to you may be wrong to the next person, but thats a whole new argument.



Well of course. But the word honor is not one to be used when you find your enemy being bandwagoned and jump aboard. That term is way overused. I think I'll consider my dog honorable for not peeing on the carpet recently.

Either case, my initial argument was that the political support behind CG isnt ->all<- for CG, but moreso to get at IS, and that the word honor is overused to describe things that really arent honorable at all.

Well of course. Never claimed it was all of them. Thats why I put the ->some<- in there.

Pleasure having this discussion with you.

Is the thought that this war is a trap plausible? Yes.

Is it a good trap? Not at all.

Going back to Ye Olde Treaty Web, you can see immediately how things would unfold:

1. Internet Superheroes attacks 9rimson Guard en-masse
2. New Sith Order comes to the rescue and attacks Internet Superheroes
3. Poison Clan hits along with anyone else they can round up
4. Frostbite hits back with anyone else they can round up

What follows from there is a general melee with nukes flying and already-damaged alliances going back to war for no real defined gain. Any alliance leader worth their salt wouldn't buy into this conflict since the escalation is so blatant. Granted, there is some solid PR to be gained but that's another story.

I thin Lord Moldavi summed it up nicely elsewhere - why would the Sith get involved in the first place when its so obvious how this is going to unfold?

Appropriate question. I was thinking of the military/non-military/unclear support, but I badly worded that: now it's "amended".
Thanks for your implicit correction.

Alas in this brave new world people are afraid to get their hands dirty. I can certainly understand NSO's reasoning but war would have been fun. In short, IS are fools. I am glad to see Invicta's support for CG. If IS tries something like this on Purple, they're in for an unpleasant surprise

For God's sake, don't call him "Lord Moldavi." His ego is big enough already.

As much as I like Crimson Guard, I don't see why NSO would come to their defense. Just because they have a doctrine that says they're willing to attack whoever whenever for whatever doesn't mean they're going to activate it and start a nuclear holocaust for just any old reason.

I think it may have plateaued after his "welcome back" party.

Yes jerge, I do quite think you're right. NSO members hinted at it and Ivan came right out and said it somewhere in the CG ultimatum. That and it's the only thing that makes any modicum of sense.

I'm in agreement with this.

If I stroke his maybe he'll stroke mine

The problem with this theory is that NSO never pledged to do anything or defend anyone from injustice. They just re-affirmed their right to do so.

I think the more likely scenario is the obvious one: a lulz attempt gone too far.

I think it was a poorly thought out trap.

NSO beatup RAD, IS was pissed about it. IS knows that NSO doesn't like them and have been trying to piss them off pretty constantly for a while now.

NSO has thier doctrine which states they could come to the defence of somebody attacked unjustly, so IS attacks somebody unjustly that seems to have no other protection available, yet somebody with enough OWF presence to make their unjust attack known. NSO dislikes IS so they'd come in swinging right?

Of course an 8 year old child could see that trap.

I think NSO should join up with GOONS and have us another Shark Week. How sexy would that be?

Yes, this is frequently the case.


The world could use a lot more of this attitude.

I'm not sure whether to respond with a laugh or a punch.


Maybe both?

As long as it's simultaneous then it works for me.

*devours Tokugawa's soul*

I know what you're going to say next.

Yeah I'm pretty sure that's what they wanted to have happen. This seems like the mostly likely scenario to me. The "training exercise" theory makes little sense, because if that were the case it'd make a lot more sense to choose a more obscure micro alliance. One that has no forum activity. Instead they chose Crimson Guard because they wanted the attack to be noticed. Noticed by the Sith and acted upon.

As many times as this theory has been brought up, has anyone else noticed that no one from IS or PWN has come forward in an attempt to disprove or discredit it? I'm sure they will now since I've brought the fact up, but that's rather telling in itself, I think.

I'd say that theory sounds a little ridiculous, myself. It's just inviting for the would-be curbstompers to be curbstomped. I mean really. If this was a trap, you don't have to be Admiral Ackbar to figure it out.

Unless this is all a ploy by C&G to destroy Frostbite. Shoot, shouldn't have sai-

You've got to explain this trap theory to me. I don't see it. It seems to end with Internet Superheroes going "haha we tricked you into killing us". Doesn't seem like much of a trap to me.

I never said it was a good trap.

I'd say no one is stupid enough to set up a trap to get themselves killed. But then again, this is CN.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1791185

Explained there, it was a trap set for their allies and whoever else dislikes us to jump in against us in defense of IS.

Well, IS wanted to attack CG. That is the basis for all this. That alone in itself could be the driving force. The fact that multiple members of IS went and joined RAD during the fight with NSO shows that it really wasn't just a RAD/NSO war. It was atleast a RAD/IS vs NSO war, not sure if they had any of their other pink friends join them for it. I still think that at some point those pink guys wanted a war with NSO but they got outmaneuvered and didn't get to choose when that happened. So I would say that when they decided to attack CG they realized that they might get NSO to come in via the Doctrine and they would love for that to happen. I am pretty sure RAD and PC have known about this from the beginning and were ok with it.

How far down the ally chain this idea went though? We will probably never know.

Do I give them credit for going so far as to orchestrate another Great War? Well, it is possible but it would have been at great expense to themselves. Would those guys be willing to make that sacrifice in order to say they started a Great War? I suppose that is possible too. More likely though to me is that they thought if NSO came in on it's Doctrine of Optional Defense that perhaps the rest of Frostbite wouldn't have enacted their optional defense through frostbite except for.....oh yes that one other Frostbite alliance that they really do not like that has a seperate defensive treaty with NSO. Yes, I am talking STA. I am thinking they wanted us in the fight too.

Who knows, its all conjecture at this point and personal opinions and they dont seem ready to oblige us as to letting us know the truth. Maybe after all this is over they will let us know.