This thread is specifically devoted to rulings made by myself (and Lavo if he wants to use the thread). In this thread will be a collection of rulings made in the first post, along with links. Also in this thread is the contesting or appealing of rulings.

Definition of GM

The game masters (GMs) are CNRP players appointed by the CyberNations Forums moderating staff to enforce the CNRP community rules. They are regarded as the be-all, end-all in situations of disagreements between players under the moderators themselves. It should be noted that moderators are not responsible for the creation of new rules, but the enforcement of established rules. The rules are set by the CNRP community. Think of GMs as judges rather than legislatures because, like judges, sometimes the rules are open to interpretation and GMs are forced to make rulings.

The GMs

hawk_11 - CNRP's resident NPO-sabotage expert, hawk_11 goes out of his way to squash all fun in the general vicinity with cold, hard logic. Many an RP has fallen prey to this monster, as it becomes more and more clear that the NPO's quest of making the game boring and bland has spread to CNRP. None are safe. Rumor has it he's a sucker for Dire Straits music; however, this is unconfirmed.

Lavo_2 - One of the strongest nations in CNRP, now with GM powers. More on Lavo coming as we learn about him; specifically what he did with the first Lavo.

The Right to Due Process

This GM believes that all CyberNations RP players have the right to have a ruling appealed. This right will be guaranteed by this GM regardless of a player's alliance, nation strength, size, standing in the RP community, etc. However, this GM maintains that the appeal must be carried out in the proper process rather than argued stupidly in threads where no one cares. Therefore, this GM has established this thread in order to better serve the needs of the CNRP community. This GM cannot guarantee the right to due process after he passes.

Rules
If you are appealing/contesting a ruling:
1) This is a court of evidence, not whining - I'm not going to listen to arguments of "But haaaaaaawk!" If you're appealing/contesting a ruling, you need to have evidence to support your claim. Evidence can be anything, including links to specific posts, past rulings, screenshots of in-game nations, etc. Evidence does not include IRC logs. IRC is considered permanently OOC.
---Ammendment to 1 - Persuasive arguments are also good if evidence of past rulings are not available. Don't think I'm a creature not capable of rational discourse without evidence. Evidence is strong; yet, it is not the only deciding factor in arguments.
2) Keep legalese to a minimum - Seriously, use small words. The only time Latin should be spoken in this thread is if it would be quicker to say "ad infinitum" instead of "etc." There's no need to get fancy. This is a courtesy rule; it makes your argument easier to read.
3) Be nice - The very existence of this thread means I'm admitting I'm not infallable. It also means you're not infallable. We're sensible people, we can have a decent discussion. This is a courtesy rule; you being rude will not have an effect on your ruling unless you're completely off-base with your argument. Don't be surprised if rude posts end up reported.
4) One appeal limit per situation per evidence/new evidence/rules change - You get one shot. The only way I'll allow the reopening of an appeal is if you've got new, definitive evidence, or if community rules/standards have changed. I will not entertain the same argument twice.
5) No run-around - If one of us makes a ruling in here, I'm sure the other one will not step on the other's toes. Most often we will discuss our rulings with each other; So, don't bother trying to get me if Lavo says no and vice versa. That sentence is also an example of the appropraite use of legalese.
6) The mod always wins - You can sure as hell bet I'm not going to overturn anything a mod says, and if a mod interjects here, then we're going with what they say. This rule is non-debatable.
7) No uninvolved commentary - If you're not involved in the appeal happening, don't comment on it. You can open an appeals commentary thread if you want; however, I will not be accepting evidence from it. PM me if you feel you should be involved. This is a courtesy and also non-debatable
8) It's just a game, I should really just relax - The CyberNations mantra. Live it, love it, and meditate on it before getting mad.

Past Rulings

Use of saved stats by players who quit - hawk_11 has ruled that saved stats may be used by players who have quit in order to reroll a CNRP nation provided they adhere to the following rules: no new technological developments may be produced, no nuclear weapons may be produced or used regardless of current stats or Manhattan Project wonder. All other saved-stat rules apply. This ruling is yet to be appealed.
hawk_11's logic - If we're going to allow people to play with saved stats (as much as I hate them), we should allow nations to be founded on them provided the player is a reoccuring character in CNRP. Though Vektor left in an extremely unpopular manner (read as: KILL EVERYTHING RARGH), I still feel he's got the right to use saved stats, as does any other CNRPer who goes away for a while. I don't recall any past precedent on the ruling of the establishing new nations on saved stats. I also recall KaiserMartens and MercyFallout establishing themselves on saved stats in the past.

Abolishment of saved stats - hawk_11's logic: The use of saved stats has been a hotly debated topic in our RP community for a long time. On one hand, it allows people who are caught in large wars to continue RPing without being forced to RP the in-game actions of their alliances; however, on the other hand it is an easily abused system allowing people who have fallen out of grace in CyberNations to remain on top despite not actually having the nation strength to back it up. People trying to enter the game with saved stats is the final straw. It is now necessary to abolish them. This is CyberNations Role Play, after all. Saving stats only allowed for nations to rise; nations should fall also.

(Reserved for extended OP if necessary)

If KM came back on saved stats, it was against my exact directions as a GM. I specifically told him that he could not have anything he used to have because he was still getting Kaiser Martens the character back, and as a GM I've said that a dozen times. As for Mercy, I wasn't a GM when it happened and I do remember he came back on halved stats. When saved stats were invented it was for people who were playing so that they wouldn't have to RP the destruction of their country - a legitimate reason so that nobody would be forced to RP something they didn't want to. When Vektor left, his saved stats went with him because he's coming back with a new slate. There's no RPing that has to go along with his weakness now: no famine, nuclear holocaust (had to throw it in), inept Palintine rulership over the army, etc. etc. and so there's no reason for him to have saved stats still here.

If he had stayed, yes. Fine. But as soon as he quit, everything goes with him.

As it stands, past-precedent has been established by a former GM that the ruling should be overturned. VektorZero may now counter the appeal.

For clarity, I came back with reduced stats. My tech was halved, my land quartered, and my infra....I think I got third of it.

I have also voluntarily given up my saved stats. I've passed all of them (or will soon enough) anyways.

Just as a side note, I think this will be good for the community. Good show.

Rule 7, people. Serious business thread is serious business.

I'm going to go here and say saved stats period should be abolished.

This is Cybernations Roleplay. We RP our countries directly into here, and saved stats are essentially going back in time and keeping your country where it was. That's not CNRP. These areas of the forums allow for more than Cybernations Roleplay and they can do whatever they want with saved stats, but when you go into CNRP you RP with your country now, not your country before you got into a war. Saved stats are incredibly unfair to those who haven't had the luck to be in the game long enough to be very strong. When the strong ones get hurt, this makes it fair - but, no, saved stats keep the dominant players on top without any actual legitimate reasoning.

All saved stats should be abolished.

I'm in agreement. I'm moving to abolish saved stats, which is something I feel is long overdue in this RP. Like all rulings, this is appealable. This also makes the case against VektorZero's reentry with saved stats null; therefore, he must enter with his in-game stats.

I share the same sentiments as Sargun on the issue. CN and CNRP should be intertwined, if you take a hit in the main game, the damage will be inflicted on your nation. Having saved statistics just defeat the purpose.

I agree with abolishing saved stats, while I supported them in the past as it currently stands we represent our nations. Nation Names or Ruler Names should remain open to change but your in game statistics have to stand.

I wish to appeal the total abolishment of saved stats.

As reasoned earlier, the option was available so that if one did not wish to RP something happening IG that was beyond their control, they did not have to. (Such as surrender restriction on navy, nukes, air forces, etc, or Global Radiation, or even being the one nuked ingame--which can sometimes be difficult to get creative for.) Few players ever abused this option, to my knowledge, and the ones who did had the hammer brought down on them, so to speak.

It should be noted that I do support the idea that if one quits their nation for a time then comes back, they may not used whatever their saved stats were, as even if they are RP'ing a successor state, it is NOT the same nation.

EDIT: And to prevent abuse of this in the first place was why LVN and I established that no further advancements in your nation are allowed until you reach the levels at which your stats are saved.

I support abolishing saved stats, but players who are under P-ZI or E-ZI sentence should be allowed to play their saved stats.

While this would be true in a RP that only uses statistics to base their nations off and develop the rest later on we do play CNRP sometimes the CN part gets forgotten. Nukes and all those other things are easy to rp and actually can create something nice; Nuke? RP a power plant and the damage control that follows on it if you include the feelings of those characters you play you create great things. GRL? Mass Emigration or an epidemic, Air Force? Lack of funds, etc.



Those on PZI or EZI generally have something else to be busy with than their RP nations...

If you do not wish to RP your country, don't RP CNRP.

Subtle, I've been noticing a trend within the CNRP community for some time moving away from saved stats. I'm merely acting on it now. If it somehow turns out the poll that the community just started swings against this opinion, I'll reconsider the ruling. At this poitn the vote stands unanimous in favor of abolishing.

Also everyone else: rule 7.

As I said, it's difficult to be creative. yes, those are easy solutions, but they've been used, several times already. CNRP is about trying to come up with new ideas, isn't it?

For example, I got nuked. However, I Rp a people that have a phobia against nuclear power plants, so i can't very well RP that, now can I?

Say that shoddy engineering crippled a large amount of buildings within some major cities.

Why? I haven't had a lot of major construction going on for some time now.

But you did in the past. Major engineering $%&@ ups aren't noticed for a while sometimes.

How long? When I RP a motnth equals a year, that's...at least a decade. In fact, i don;t recall EVER RP'ing major CITY construction.

You don't have cities? What the hell is wrong with your country?

I have always RP'd the cities pretty much being what's there in RL.

Now let's cut this chatter, as it hardly seems to be what Hawk had in mind when he made this thread.

If wee want to continue it, let's take it to another thread.

Kaiser Martens continued to RP even though he was under E-ZI sentence.

The results of the poll currently have 61% at yes. I'd say that's a fair enough majority to consider the ruling valid. I'll discuss it with Lavo later.

I appeal based on it being an anonymous poll which was obviously rigged based on information I have about a plot against a particular player . If you want an accurate vote, do a post-vote by active participants.

Consider it no longer unanimous.

1) The poll we had made at the time was unanimous at 8-0.
2) There's a new poll that I guarantee will work if everyone follows the rules.

Considering this was brought up over a debate concerning Vektor coming back using saved stats and having nothing to do with Sumeragi, your logic fails.

We're done here.

Rule 7 guys or I'm going to see about reporting spam.

Alright. Even though there is a poll up, after that one is rued on, I would like a new poll to go up over the legality of quitting/ rerolling and using your old saved stats, because that seems more like the issue at hand.

Could the rule for this wonder be modified? Because having a Fallout Shelter IG hurts you in a nuclear war (I can quote the reasons at length if anyone hasn't seen them), hense many nations which could purchase one (myself included) do not.

Imo, you need a shelter for EXTENSIVE bunker networks to protect not only the entire population, but also vast numbers of your army.
Without it, you can RP bunkers and the like, but only for, say, 20-40% of your military and population.
My opinion. <.<

The community at large needs to decide on that one.

I dont mind if you RP making bunkers without a fallout shelter. Because 90% of bunkers cannot survive a nuclear attack.

I want to address the re-emergence of Nordic Technology transferred to Groenlandia before it fell.

There was one post detailing the transfer of technology to Groenlandia; no mention of it since. And now they try and create an entire arsenal for several nations using Nordic Technology which Groenlandia, at a Tech Level of 1800 should not be able to produce, much less create in ungodly amounts and store underground. This seems to me to be a direct circumvent of the saved stats ruling.

I also thought about bringing that up - not necessarily concerning the Nordic technology or whatever, but rather addressing the idea of high-end technology "living on" even after the nation possessing it has been long defunct.

I feel it's important that such technology is conserved because it emphasizes that there is continuity within the CNRP universe - knowledge does not simply "die off", and it shouldn't. It also adds some flavor to the roleplay as a role.

However, as Sage has pointed out, it can be seen as a "clever" way to bypass conventional technological limits guidelines and the whole "saved stats" thing and leaves plenty of room for godmoding. I'd say "They ain't got the stats so they ain't got it", but as I have just said I find it detrimental to RP as a whole to simply say that. So I say let them have it, but they must expect said arsenal to be majorly handicapped by some mean - maybe some information was missing and the weapon is incomplete? A blueprint was torn apart so maybe part of this object won't function properly? We don't quite have the industrial capacity to reproduce this tank en masse. I don't know, use common sense.

Does the rules not state that that is not allowed?




Only people with the same nation as they had at the time of these being originally used should be able to use them.

Grøenlandia has not rerolled. They still maintain the nation they had at the time. The same goes for Prussia.

True, but Grøenlandia already had their OWN tanks and soldiers and tech. They can't have double everything even with blueprints. So really unless the entirety of Grøenlandia's military was placed into an underground storage shelter...

They can decommission their current tanks and equipment, scale the German tech down, and use the latter instead.

Of course, that would require some good RP...

Which, I'm sure, Californian can provide.

The fact that you guys are continuing to argue after Lavo made a ruling stating that it could be used, if said nations using it were in the technology range, is really disrespectful.

That's why it's called an appeal. We're trying to get the opinion of the OTHER GM. And the majority of the community, which is what counts.

Well, we have every right to disagree with a GM ruling. If it means I'm disrespectful, then rename me "Disrespect McGee" because if I see a ruling as absurd, I will fight it.

His ruling was that they needed X tech level to use the German tech. That doesn't seem absurd to me.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1776763


That is not fighting a ruling. That is basically saying you won't recognize Lavo's ruling.

Yes, I don't recognize it. And your point?

I'd like to get a GMs opinion about this issue that has arisen... if a player says they are going to delete their nation in 12 days and say, explicitly, that their land will revert to white, what is the policy on other players already carving up this player's land while he is still here? Do we, as fellow players, have to respect the leaving player's wishes for their land (a.k.a. reverting to white) instead of making our own plans for it?