I think nations in peace mode should be able to send aid if they do it in secret ...

If the spy option suggestion if approved (the one where a spy attempt will show the secret aid), then if a nation in peace mode is "shown" by this spy operation that nation is forced out of peace mode .. (to not return for the standard 3 days).


Don't put these two ideas together, i know they are similar, but we could hypothetically allow peace mode nations to send aid for double cost in secret, without them being forced out of peace mode, etc. Its up for discussion naturally

approved for discussion

Considering how worthless FCC is still, even with the addition, i think it would give it more added bonus. Not much mind you, unless you had a whole alliance with them in peace mode

I don't think that they should be forced out of peace mode, because you have to collect taxes to do that. I would make it so that they can no longer send in peace mode if found, and any pending aid deals would be canceled.

No
Peace mode is a cop out and should be eliminated from the game entirely
At the moment peace mode comes with many penalties, nothing that weakens these penalties should be allowed

Their are legit reasons for going into or staying in peace mode. It sometimes is a cop-out, but someone who is going to be gone for 2 weeks and is in a small alliance prone to tech raids means that its legitimate use to go into peace mode because they won't be there to respond. Same if you will be gone for the first week or 2 during a major war. Finally, it may come as a shock, but there are people who just like building and not getting involved in wars at all.

Yeah, forcing them out of peace mode would potentially make this a cheaper way to sneak out of peace mode, rather than collecting taxes (i.e. intentionally send aid and get "caught").

If anything, I would make this a fairly risky transaction. I'd say you pay twice the rate to send the aid (e.g. pay $6M in order for a nation to recieve $3M). And if you get caught before the aid is accepted, the aid should be destroyed. In addition, there needs to be a new function added that would force them out of peace mode, but still have the economic penalties of peace mode until their next collection (as if they were voluntarily leaving peace mode). With all of these, I think it could be a worthwhile addition to the game.

No, the original reason nations in peace mode aren't allowed to send aid was because they would fight proxy wars safe from the threat of any significant personal losses. The fact that both nations in the transaction need to have a FCC does significantly increase the cost of this transaction, but I still don't think it's enough to offset the fact that this system allows the creation of nations fighting wars with little personal cost.

What if there was a spy ops that could target slots, including for peaced-out nations?

EDIT

No, all a nation has to do to circumvent this is to send a message saying "when are you logging on tomorrow?" or "I'm sending you secret aid at 2 hours before update today".

To cancel it yes, but not to do other stuff with it.

Could you elaborate? So long as the aid is successful (due to so very little chance of actually getting the aid destroyed), nations can still fight proxy wars.

To dramatically extend the aid slot time so that they might be able to do it, but you could essentially stop them from getting or sending any more if you play it right.

Having it so it could be discovered would not help change the fact that this is reversing the deliberate prevention of peace mode nations being able to aid.


Whislt you may be able to pick out bank nations and spy on them, plenty of other nations could be peace mode aiding, and if they are not wearing an AA there is no way to discover them, unless you want to go around wasting masses of spy slots and money,

ill just quote him instead of saying the same thing

I cannot disagree with this more strongly. Any element which strengthens the position of an already dominant group is game-killing. Power mobility is absolutely necessary for new/beaten players to want to continue playing the game. Because peacemode tactics are useful to a vastly outnumbered force, they should if anything be improved and strengthened. And yes, I say this as someone fighting an alliance which has chosen the mass peacemode route.

EDIT: No offense intended, it is just that I am all too familiar with what it is like to be forced to play from a disadvantaged position. It's not fun. IMO this game should first and foremost be fun and enjoyable for the greatest number of players, rather than catering to the dominant group(s).

I believe what londo said answers your point smallfrog. We don't want it too easy for nations in peace to be found.

Taking all these points into consideration, I think it is plausible to do it as stated, IF we could have the happiness penalty added to the nations taxes UNTIL they collected... this would not be too hard to code, just add a new line on the collection (-5 happiness on collection for one collection).

So to summarize

Peace mode nations can send secret aid only to other nations. If a nation in peace mode is spied upon and caught for doing peace mode transactions (in the form of sending out aid), he or she would be forced out of peace mode, but still bare the happiness penalties of peace mode, until they collected. A nation that has entered peace mode, cannot send aid for 5 days.

I added this point so a nation that is in peace mode, cannot be deliberately spied upon so that they can leave peace mode early.

I don't agree with being able to send aid from peace mode. That was removed for a reason, and the aid being secret does not change that reasoning.

Secret aid for all -- irregardless of wonders and peace/war mode -- would have made this war a whole lot more fun for more rulers for a longer period of time. Seriously, when the money runs out (and who wouldn't run out of money after being nuked 31 times and in constant war for 42 days?) it is no fun to have a one-sided war where one party can only sit there and watch.

Edited to add that donations and the money they provide the donor would have been an awesome thing to be able to do in secret.

What about allowing it to only other peace-mode nations and you cannot get out of peace-mode while you have an active trade sent from a peace-moded nation?

No aid sent from peace mode period.

Kind disrupts the point, the whole point is giving the underdog a chance. Albeit its a small one, but being able to aid others in war from peace mode would be awesome, but now that makes it safe for the nation that is aiding from peace mode. Which is why the whole spy suggestion was brought up, so nations in peace mode could be taken out.

I do agree as it stands now allowing peace-mode nations to send aid to anyone would not do much as other than sanctioning you can't do anything disruptive to a nation in peace-mode. Without adding new rules to affect everyone I don't think it's appropriate to do so as I don't believe in making spy ops specific only for peace-mode nations.

It wouldn't be specific to them, it would fall under the gather intel category, or if theres a category where you could find WHO sent the secret aid.

(Like if you are fighting someone, and you believe they were sent secret aid, you could do an operation to find out WHO sent that secret aid; and if it were a peace mode nation, for example, they would be kicked out of peace mode but still have the economic downturn on their next collection, as if they were in peace mode).

Seems like it make fishing expeditions advantageous.

I like the idea of Peace Mode Aid. In RL just because an nation is neutral, not involved, it still can spy, aid, etc. PM could have some worth. Although I think that this needs some type of balancer, maybe require the nation to have a minimum amount of spies to do this, as the spies would escort the aid. I'm not saying making this a spy op, I'm saying another prereq to have this.

I think I agree with Zeta here, it does seem like a good idea in the rough, but I think it should require something else as well.

Not necessarily spies themselves... perhaps having it cost 3 times as much as the aid sent? Secret aid in general costs double, why should we just not ramp that cost up a bit more for someone who does it from peacemode?

Also a question pops up in my head; why would someone in peacemode already, need to worry about not getting caught sending aid out to someone so much so that they want to do it in secret? It would seem that if you're already in peacemode you're either a bank during war (and need to conserve your money for your own allies) or you're under some ZI/PZI/EZI sentence and then you can pretty much send to whoever you want anyway (if you end up having the money). I suppose there isn't a problem with the suggestion, but it doesn't make much sense to me to have it done...

If peace mode aid is allowed it has to require that the aid be sent to another nation in peace mode to be balanced.

I understand what you're trying to do here, but on the face of it, such a move would be retarded. If you can send aid, you can send aid. Perhaps it would cost more from peace mode, perhaps you can't do it period, but I don't want to put in all sorts of clauses... just adds confusion and/or is dumb IMO. Clear/simple rules are always better.

I do not think I would have a problem with nations in peace mode sending each other aid, if there was a 3x penalty involved (ie if you send 3M it costs you 9M).

Sending aid from peace mode was removed a long time ago due to the way it was abused. In this era of massive warchests, you would have to make the penalty somewhere around 10x the amount of aid sent to make it have a substantial penalty. but, by then the option would be worthless.

Allowing more option for nations in peace mode is not a good idea. I would rather see more restrictions placed upon them, but that is a whole other topic.

If that is the case, why do you need to make it secret and at that point, why stick a punishment to the sender on it. Suggestion might be that if a PM nations sends aid to another PM nation, both nation have to wait 10 days before coming out of PM. Also add onto the Navy Option of Embargo that it prevents the nations from sending secret aid or receiving secret aid still the nation collects and removes it.

I think that we should allow the peace mode aid. They are already getting -9 happiness, so if we do secret peace mode aid that makes it more fair for those who do not ever want to be involved in war.