Suggestion - make the forum/game report abuse forums similar to the Moderation/Suggestion Box forums where the threads are only visible by moderation. Then, instead of approving threads to be seen, moderation can simply post in them as done currently, but the general player base never sees them.

I know that there are a large number of players who have been threatened with IC retaliation for reports (myself included) and this is a practice which should be utterly reprehensible, yet it is allowed by the way the system is set up. Making it so that players never see the report forums would eliminate this problem completely.

This topic is now open for discussion.

I would like to point out that this would mean that you won't be able to see your own topics.

I made a similar suggestion to this a while ago although my suggestion involved the OP and mods being able to see it (I think it was eventually decided against since it would require installing a mod on the forums) . Overall I like it I do not think it is important for the person making the report to be able to see it and if the moderation staff has any follow up questions about a report they can always be asked via PM.

As someone who has also gotten veiled and not so veiled threats for making reports in the past I can say for sure that I like it.

How often do report threads require follow-up? Especially with respect to the forum abuse section it is almost completely unneeded.



Agreed.

It'd be nice sure to be able to see report threads, but it is not *that* big of deal not to see them. I'd much more prefer not seeing them or anyone else's as compared with seeing all of them as currently stands.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Having the abuse reports forum publicly viewable lends a degree of transparency to the process which would otherwise be impossible. When you have people (allegedly) using abuse reports to settle scores against rivals, it is good to have as many sets of eyes looking as possible. Also in the not unheard of (although quite rare) instance of a biased moderator, it is another means of demonstrating the supposed bias. I understand that there are some people who are afraid to make reports due to in-game ramifications. If that happens to you and you can prove it, take it up with the mod team. I am pretty sure they'll take a rather dim view on that.

I believe that the abuse forums should be rid of altogether and more moderators be recruited or possibly, the offenses which people can report should be narrowed down to a select few deemed adequately severe.

I feel that opening every single little violation to be reported leaves much room for users to spam the reports forums with large numbers of petty reports for minor violations in an attempt to "get at" their enemies.

Just to point out something else, in IPB 3.0 (coming out within a couple months), there's a feature to make topics in certain forums only visible by the topic starter and admins.

Personally, sure, I think everyone should follow the rules. However when you have certain people constantly reporting others for victimless violations like one-word replies and signatures which are too large, it makes the player base more hostile to anyone reporting anything.

I would endorse a plan where that the only reports which moderators want submitted by the player base are serious spam (like posting topics over and over like REAL spam) serious flaming (REAL threats, not stupid !@#$) and serious offensive behavior (like goatse). A frivolous report would be a warnable offense.

While I generally don't report most rule violations I find (I suppose it's not really my job to police the forums), for the occasional times I do I prefer knowing that I'm not posting a duplicate topic.

I also like the relative transparency that Electron Sponge noted, especially since there are people who report just to opponents warned, either discouraging them from posting further or trying to make sure they're banned. It's nice to be able to know who those people are, gather evidence about their reporting habits and present a case why you think it's inappropriate. Which a busy moderation staff might not have time to notice, as I've seen sometimes happens with warn appeals that fall down 4 pages and a month later someone comes around saying "sorry to bump this but it's been a month and I haven't heard anything", showing that legitimate issues do occasionally get overlooked.

As for avoiding in-character retaliation, it is possible to send a private message to a moderator, provided you've found the right one, which can be a little confusing. I've done it before myself exactly for that reason.

I'd say no to the proposal for the following reasons:

1. It would make the reporting system completely opaque (see Sponge's post).
2. It would put on the Mods all the burden of spotting moderation misuse.
3. (For those afraid of IC consequences) it's already possible to not post and PM the Mods instead.
4. It would make impossible to avoid duplicate reports.
5. Reading the reports and the answers to them helps a lot in understanding how the board rules actually work.
   (I have almost grabbed the Signature Rule, eventually, and that's quite a feat for me! )

I think it should be left the way it is. If someone has a problem reporting a violation to the rules, they can always private message the appropriate moderator.

I just contact mods in private when I have something I deem worth reporting.

I'm going to keep it real. If I'm flaming or trolling then yes, I deserve to be punished. But if someone is all V for Vendetta for IC reasons or trying to suck up to the mods by reporting every single little violation like a signature being 6 pixels too wide, it's going to piss me off.

This is an OOC forum, so I'm not representing my alliance here, but seriously I wonder if some people don't have better things to do than spam the entire Report Forum Abuse page with frivolous reports. Yes, they are actually rules violations, but I'm curious as to the need for epic retaliation for the minor inconvenience of seeing a one-word reply.

Since saying I don't respect snitching isn't permitted in no discussion threads, and I really have no OOC place to tell you not to do something encouraged by the moderators, my only recourse is IC, so I don't really find it all that reprehensible, and I find it downright repugnant that you want admin to further protect OOC griefing (see this thread for what I mean by that) by making reports invisible.

I stand by my previous proposal above to restrict player base reporting to serious violations, and make the reporting of minuscule rule violations a warnable offense.

However, rules are rules that all players regardless of alliance affiliation are to abide by. When players sign up to these forums they acknowledge the rules and their adherence to those rules. Just like a neighborhood watch in real life, if the mods want to allow people to report violations to assist them, as they have done, then it's not the reporters fault that someone else broke a rule, it's the person who did not follow the rules fault. If a reporter feels uneasy about reporting something openly, because of catching flack from others, they always have the option to report it privately via private messages to moderators.

If they did change it up to where they did not allow player reporting, which is in their right, I'd imagine they would have to increase substantially the number of moderators to handle enforcing the rules since the community at large wouldn't be assisting anymore.

Sileath, while a single "one word" or "image spam" post is (geneally) harmless, the rule is set to prevent the forums to become 90% spam, and thus "completely" unreadable. Rules on signatures set a limit to avoid that some players' screens are completely occupied by sigs, again becoming less readable.
Maybe a sig 6 pixels too wide isn't that great issue, but what should we have as a rule? 450 but with a 10 pixels tolerance? That means 460, what if we have a 462 wide one? Will we allow it because it's only 2 pixels? It's a slippery slope, as you see.
Also, it's not that the rules are that difficult to understand, and anyway the Mods are always available to answer to questions and to explain the situation. Again, it's not that a single offence is a strike out: the warn level is designed (also) to mitigate unwanted side effects of a "too rigid" application of the rules.


As for people that reports only some "sides" and not others, Sword of Estel already cleared that long ago:

About what is intended with "spinning thigs", it's my experience that as long as the reports are judged to have merit by the Mods we can't construe them as being "spinned" or "made up" (reference).

Bottom line, Bilrow is 100% correct and it's a player's fault only if s/he breaks some rule:


I would seriously advise everybody against any IC "recourse" for reports to moderation: that is indeed a "reprehensible" and "downright repugnant" concept (see: IC/OOC line, harassing, etc.)

I would like to see a clearer explanation given of which moderator to PM about what type of abuse report. I've never wanted to do that myself, personally, but I have wondered how I would go about finding out who to PM if I needed to send in a PMed report.

Otherwise, no, I like the current system.

Check the pinned topics.

I posted out of emotion and was countered by reason.

I stand corrected.

Agreed.


Nicely stated


Little things add up.




If anyone has noticed, I have a 'saved x amount of people' in my signature. Though I have received warns, They were either for a spam topic or filtering myself (Because I was previously a moderator elsewhere which condoned such use, just got mixed up -- which the thread was a fun thread to the admin. ). What the signature represents is, I have actively notified this many people privately about rule violations (signature, one word, etc etc) before being reported. I do it out of the kindness of my heart while making moderation life easier. I don't spam the moderation section in hopes of becoming a mod, in fact, I believe doing so is redundant. I just do not wish to see little things add warns, you know? Thus being said, I hope the forums do not go private, for the reasonings previously mentioned. In fact, it will possibly cause MORE work for moderation and reporters will not know if their report was ever handled and locked.

Most importantly, MANY over IRC view the moderation thread and it can display what is right and what is wrong by viewing REAL cases of such actions, amongst other reasons. There is nothing wrong with the current system in my honest opinion.

I don't suppose there would be a way to show the reports and the mod responses, but make the submitter anonymous?

I suggested this sometime last year and was told it was under discussion, but apparently it never happened, haha. At this point, however, despite having been in the same boat as Srqt and having received numerous threats over reports, I feel that Sponge has it right. It's better to have it visible for everyone for the exact reasons he said. I have taken to filing nearly all of my reports into a moderator's inbox. The only issue I really see with PMing reports is I have received maybe one response back confirming they got it and took care of it out of probably 30-50 (really rough estimate) reports I have PMed. The mods really should respond more often so we know they are getting the reports. I actually reported the revealing of private information the other day and never got a response back on it, and that's a pretty serious thing to not know if it was taken care of or not.

I agree with these comments; having abuse forums encourages some rulers to abuse it for their private purposes. I've used dozens of forums and have never been a member of one that has a forum abuse report area.


Recruit enough moderators so there will be enough manpower to peruse threads without relying on member reports.

You'd likely have a lot of repeat threads.

Perhaps a "report post" button would be useful? That sends it to the moderators and would likely work in such a way that repeat reports wouldn't get posted.

We had a system we were testing out for a private reporting system, but the mod heading that project ended up moving on and so it was shelved.

Also, if you are having problems receiving a response or update on a private matter, feel free to CC another mod. All of the mods are very busy working in their respective departments and cannot give an instant response, but a request PM'd to two mods increases your chances it will be completed in a timely manner.

As for recruiting more moderators, we are always on the lookout. However, we are then faced with the problem of quantity vs. quality. There is only so much oversight that can be provided for the Gameplay or Roleplay staff and that amount of time required to ensure the moderators are not abusing their powers does not include the appeals and policy changes that the Senior Staff, Sword of Estel, and Admin handle every day. An army of moderators coupled with a lack of abuse report leads to a whole new kind of abuse forum: the Mod Abuse forum. Something I doubt any of us want to see.

I chose a mod I could trust, as it was real life information about myself. I'd rather not confirm that kind of stuff to just any mod. I only trust a few of the mods as it is with CN stuff, much less RL stuff.

I'm fine with PMing everything to moderators if that is good enough on your end, but as JB said, it would definitely be nice to get a reply for all reports so that we know everything got received, etc.

If you are PMing a report to a mod, it has been received if you did not receive an error.

I will understand if you don't like this answer at all, but PMing a Mod directly does not take you to the top of the queue. We do receive and act on all reports we are PM'd, but they are taken care of the moment we do not have more pressing issues to immediately handle. On top of that, the mod you PM may not be on for several days as we also have schedules we must adhere to. If you want an immediate answer, you will have to expand your sphere of trust a little farther outward. We as moderators do not last long in this position if we betray confidences.

That's true, but it's a LOT easier for a player to understand that the report has been dealt with when there is a post to say "handled" or "thanks" under it

Come to think of it, it's strange how much that recognition seems to be valued

It's common courtesy that dictates that the moderator at least acknowledge the report. After all, the player doing the reporting is taking time out to give the mods a hand. That merits acknowledgment at least. The same goes for private messages to a moderator. A thank you wouldn't be out of the question either.

Meh. I don't report anything really, just notify the members who are doing something wrong. Reporting is redundant imo, I understand why people do it, I just send them a PM. Serious offenses I don't notify them and sometimes will contact moderation through private means. I do it as a competition for myself, to see how high I can get. Haha. The forums can get boring at times. Need to entertain myself.

Yeah, Ejay's method seems to be the best... Report violations to the violators themselves. Then if they don't fix it, report to mods.

Keep it open and transparent. It helps me understand the rules, avoid repeat posting, and still allows for PM messaging for more private matters.

Thank you? For adding to my workload?

Sir, I think you must be mistaken.

Replying "Thanks" is not that big of deal

I don't think at least how many PMs do you get a day for this sort of thing?

In my PM tracker I have 12 unread messages, and 9 of them were sent to Mods: 4 different Mods, with PMs on various issues spanning from Aug 24 2008 to Mar 12 2009.
I have no qualm about that as I understand that you Mods can be busy and maybe you just sometimes scratch PMs that are old, or that bear titles that make them look irrelevant (or, there's a bug in the Forums?)
I anyway recommend to use the Forum instead of PMs, if one thinks that the issue s/he's reporting really deserves to be handled with certainty.

Of those nine messages, how many are to Mods that are still considered active? I have received several resend PM's CC'd to me after there was no response simply because the mod in question was no longer active.

This is a risk you run with PMing a Mod directly, and why I suggest you CC other mods if it is a critical matter.

i hate deez snitchez

One of those nine PMs one was indeed sent to a now retired Mod, but he wasn't retired at the time (almost one year ago).

[By the way I just realized that the tracked PMs page does not sort the PMs by year/month/day, but by month/day(/year?), and thus my unread tracked PMs date back to April 17 2008 (not "just" to August). Anyway, back on topic...]

The other 8 PMs had been sent to Mods that have posted in the last few days.
Again, this isn't an important issue to me, anyway: I just wanted to point out that PMs may go unnoticed and opening a thread is more fault-proof.
Using CC is indeed also a good idea (although three of those PMs were the same, sent to three different Mods - two of them still active - and they all show as "unread" in my PM tracker! )

Please don't post here if you're not going to add to the discussion.

A better solution, I think, is to have a sticky thread should in the moderation forums dedicated just to "minuscule" rule violations. Players who wish to report something small would just make a post in that thread.

To be perfectly honest, I think the moderation team here does as good a job as can be expected. We're 100s of several different personalities, who interpreret the rules differently.

I honestly don't think the current system needs to be changed.

I understand the concerns over mod abuse. I was a mod on a different board, and charges of mod abuse/favoritism were constantly leveled at us, even though we knew we were being as fair as we possibly could. We used the IPB report system, and the invisibility of said reports lead to the accusations of mod bias.

I don't think the current system is broken. However, (shudder) I agree with Sponge about the acknowledgement part. If a mod is PM'ed a report, a 5 second, "thanks, we'll look into it" isn't that hard to do. Even if no follow up is given, at least the user reporting the issue doesn't feel he's being ignored.

EDIT: Boy I can't type what I'm thinking some days.

I think moderation reports should remain public. In additon for making it easier for people to report things (because they can see how prior reports that were acted on were filed), they also serve as teaching devices for alliance leaders to use to show their members what to do and what not to do on these forums. I, myself, learned proper forum conduct by reading the Moderation forums and I encourage members of my alliance to read them as well.

A scientist would say that the listing of the forum rules appeals to visual learners because it lists a set of rules for them to follow and visual learners learn by reading. The fact that the reports are open appeals to kinesthetic learns who learn by seeing examples of what is and is not proper conduct. Hiding the moderation forums may actually decrease the compliance with the rules because there would be less examples of what is and what is not proper conduct.

I strongly think there should be some privacy involved.

Right now I am being opening trolled by some (No I will not name names) for reporting an obvious inappropriate sig.

It's not right.

I've made quite a few reports since opening this thread, but I've simply PMed them instead of posting them.

*shrug*

this is the best idea if you are afraid of someone trolling or flaming you for reporting someone.

Id' report his trolling also, if I were you (if you have any evidence of it): the Mods are likely to take very seriously the harassment of players.


You can also try to talk with that person: most people are reasonable when they are met with a reasonable attitude.

[Edit: gotta stop with those wall-o-text...]

I see what you mean. I reported someone and now they are trolling me for doing so..

I've been meaning to bring up something that's on my mind regarding transparency. This might warrant a new thread; as I'm sure that a moderator or two looks around here every so often, perhaps they can split it off.

First, I've only made three report threads so far. So far one's waiting to be noticed, two were acted on.

What I'm wondering is how easily it is for us citizens to know that a particular post is offensive, and deemed as such by the mods. I'll use one of my oh so fun examples here:

Player1 puts up something that's unambiguously against the rules. Player2 reads and files it in the abuse forums. Mods see report and let Player1 know their feelings with a warn. So far so good.

But let's go back to the thread. Player3 just came along and saw the offending thread. And got angry, and fired back in the same tone as Player1's original post. Player4 comes to 1's defence. And so on.

What I'm wondering is if it would help transparency--and possibly help cool off some hotheads--if offending posts were identified or stamped somehow. I don't know if deletion is warranted, but some sign on the post level saying that something's wrong. We already have 'Sig removed for rules violations', and we have when mods declare an entire thread as either gone to ruin, or started in ruin. Think this would help out?

The report button (that I believe was ditched on those forums) would solve a lot of problems, including but not limited to the "snitching" feeling you can have when you're reported for no good reason.
Of course, the ever so famous "mod bias" is still there but then again, ALL of the mods would receive the report and the Senior Staff (sorry, Estel for adding to your workload) can always double check if there's some trouble.

The moderation forum should remain public so the new players can learn from other players' mistakes and how to be polite with the mods when it comes to ban/warn appealing.



But then people would claim that the entire mod team is biased (JK).

Agreed. Granted, I've not been able to appeal a warn yet (and hopefully the reason remains), but it's good to see the right way ('I've been good for several months, may I have it removed?') and the wrong way (no, I won't give an example).