It was my understanding that peace-mode was an option to allow nations who wish to live without the threat of war to do so. As a part of that, peace mode prevents the nation being able to interact with other nations in a hostile way. This seems to be completely turned on it's head by allowing peace-mode nations to spy on non-peace mode nations.

I would like to suggest that peace mode nations be made immune to spy attacks as well as incapable of using spy attacks altogether. Allowing them to use spies is basically letting them mess with other people who have no recourse other than returning the favour and allowing others to spy on peace-moders is basically letting people mess with people who have made a clear statement that they do not want to be messed with and are prepared to take the economic penalties for the protection given by peace-mode.

I frankly find the current rules baffling.

approved for discussion.

Look closely at the spy operations peace mode nations can use.

They can't do anything that's really offensive or useful at all.

They still shouldn't be able to spy

Why?

The biggest harm they can do is incite propaganda. Even then its not that big of a deal. Just because a nation cannot be hostile, they can and should still be able to gather intel of a nation, and being able to infiltrate said nation. Just because your nation maybe full of hippies, it shouldnt stop your spies from working overtime.

You shouldn't be able to DEFCON switch from peace mode... other than that theres no issue.

Right now in theory you could have a group of nations in peace mode going around and supprting nations at war by spying their opponents into DEFCON 4 for them right before they attack, (which would be a huge help to those nations) but theres nothing really you can do to the Peace mode nation in return which could be anywhere near as harmful.

I don't see the harmin allowing peace mode nations to be slightly annoying with the other operations, as they can't really do any damage.

I agree with Jack Shepard ... you shouldn't be able to mess with Defcon (or threat level) from peacemode. Peace mode is not a declaration of complete isolation from the world though (you still trade, receive aid and you can still be sanctioned). Non-military operations should still be permitted.

I see the logic in saying that, but I disagree that it is a big enough deal to warrant changing it. The operations that can be done from peace mode for the most part don't affect a nation much, and in the case of the Defcon switching, a nation only has two defensive slots, I would think it would be far more practical for someone in threat level severe to be trying those operations then a person in peace mode. A peace mode nation is really not in great position to be able to afford the costs of those operations given the economic hits they take.

Those spy ops are probably more damaging to nations IN peacemode, if you think about it.

Doesn't the threat level only effect defensive odds in spy ops? not offensive?

Thats the way I read it, and if so, someone in Peace mode can be sitting in low threat level and have just as good odds as someone in war mode but with severe, but be saving their friend who is at war money.

As for the arguments of the economy of peace mode nations, for bank nations with huge warchests which scuttle into peace mode at the beginning of a big war, they would easily be able to wander about and support their alliance with defcon switches, saving the warchests of those actually... at war.

Ok, but you can't just go by what would affect a bank nation, since not every nation that finds itself in peace mode is in that happy position. I was thinking more about the economic effects of those on a peace mode nation, as you can't switch defcon or threat levels without exiting peace mode first I believe.

Considering the peace mode nation only has limited spy missions to choose from, I would think the nation in war mode would be the better choice anyway, and in any case it isn't a vast amount that would be saved either.

Yeah, you can switch DEFCON and threat levels in peace mode just like you can in war mode...

Main thing is a peace mode nation shouldn't be able to contribute to a war mode nations military effort.

In the current scenario a peace mode nation can spy to support a war mode nation so it can save its money on either a defcon switch and then ground attack once its in defcon 4, or to switch its threat level and then have a much better chance at spying a nuke on the second spy op.

Switching Defcon is clearly a military operation. And it's not 'a big deal' to change it, it will be a one line alteration in the code to make Defcon switching a spy op that can't be done from peace mode.

It's doesn't matter that they are un-able to do large amounts of damage to other nations, the point is they shouldn't be allowed to do any. If someone changed a nation's government (especially) or religion before a collection, it would most likely lose the target nation money. Sure, it's a relatively small amount but it's still an offensive action by a nation in peace-mode. Changing DEFCON/threat level is obviously an offensive action as described by others above. And gathering intelligence allows a nation in peace mode to scope out potential targets for when it leaves peace-mode. It could also send a nation's information to another non-peace mode nation who is at war with the target nation.

These are all offensive acts that are used with malicious intent, they serve no purpose other than to cause damage/disruption to the victim's nation. And it is my understanding that the whole point of peace mode is to allow nations to play peacefully without the threat of attack or other hostile in-game action. And as a trade off, they give up the ability to harm other nations in the same way. It is not meant to be used as a safe haven from which a continued vendetta may be waged. And this simple change to game mechanics will reduce the effectiveness with which it can be used as such.

I agree with OP.

The switching of Defcon is clearly a military act. However I disagree with BL assertion that peace mode is meant to be spy-free. While there is no real assertion to RL for peace-mode since technically anyone could DoW on any nation at any time (the lack of CB and backlash prevents this though).

Peace mode is primarily used for a way to develop nations without conflict, but the fact they can be sanctioned and sanction others clearly indicates that it's more than that. Furthermore gathering intel on stats does not damage the nation being targeted.

Agreed. The idea of peace mode is to make one's nation invulnerable to damage, at the expense of losing the ability to inflict damage.

-Bama

It's good how it currently is. I don't see a problem with peace mode being used tactically to some extent.

I don't see what RL has to do with it. If you want realism, do away with peace-mode all together (I wouldn't be adverse to that proposal, to be honest). However, this is a game and I'd rather focus on gameplay and what enhances it than what realism dictates should be the case.

I'm not so sure that sanctioning should be allowed from peace-mode either, although the arguments in favour of it are stronger than the arguments (or seeming lack thereof) in favour of spying on/from peace-mode (nations). As far as I know, the main argument for the sanction issue is that the power invested in the elected nation by the nations of it's colour should over-rule the "no damage to and/or from peace-mode". Personally, I'm not really a strong advocate either way, though.

And finally: No, intel gathering doesn't "damage" a nation, but it is clearly a hostile act. It's hard to explain what I mean but for example, it's like someone taking pictures of someone's naked body without their permission. It isn't doing any "damage" to the person, but it's clearly not a nice thing to have done to you. Now, I'm not trying to say it is of the same severity, but I don't think anyone who plays wants their warchest info, their navy set-up and other such information to be freely available to everyone else. Hell, if it isn't a hostile act, why have it as a "spy attack" in the first place?


The point is I don't think it's meant to be used as a tactical advantage to any extent. I think the fact that it is used as such is more down to the fact that it's hard to stop people "abusing the system" to their advantage (I.E. People will use peace-mode to dodge war if they can). And IMO, the fact that this "glitch" is used on a regular basis throughout the game to the point that people are used to it (and some like it) isn't a good argument for it to remain so, if it can be easily repaired.

Your argument was that it was directly damaging. Spying info does not directly damage them so now you change your argument.

However even without that the items you are able to due are relatively low-key. In fact, I challenge your statement that it wasn't the intent to of the admin to allow such limited use of elemets against every nation because they were there from the beginning and clearly if the admin had the idea that nations in peace-mode should be about non-aggression then he wouldn't have even allowed them to do that much.

In fact I believe it peace-mode was more intended for a semi-vacation mode where you might not be able to respond to attacks right away more than a mode designed to allow you to play the game forever without egaging in hostilities. The continual drop in happiness for those that remain in peace-mode is evidence for this and the fact you can perform spy actions from and to members in peace-mode is evidence that some level of aggression was allowed even after going into peace mode.

If you dont want them in peace mode, Dont let them go into peace mode

All nations should be allowed to do in peace mode with spies is Incite Government Propaganda, Incite Religious Propaganda and Gather Intelligence. Changing the Defcon and threat levels help with miltary operations which nations in peace mode cannot do.

Epic grave-dig but I've wanted to respond to this thread for a while but wasn't allowed to under the old grave-dig rules. I'd also like this to serve as a bump to get the attention of Admin, who's opinion on the subject would be more than welcome.


Where did I say that it was directly damaging? My argument is that it is a hostile act and is potentially destructive and/or disruptive to the nation being spied on. And that rulers who decide to go into peace-mode should not be allowed to be destructive and/or disruptive to other nations.


I think I've already covered this. "it is my understanding that the whole point of peace mode is to allow nations to play peacefully without the threat of attack or other hostile in-game action. And as a trade off, they give up the ability to harm other nations in the same way."

If Admin intended peace-mode to be a tool to help people fight wars, then I'm wrong and my suggestion obviously wouldn't help that at all, but that'd probably be something for Admin to clarify himself.


no u


I don't see why they should. As I described earlier in the thread, those acts are all potentially damaging to the nation being spied on. Furthermore, I don't see what use they could possibly be to someone who doesn't want to hurt/aggravate/hinder the growth of/annoy the ruler being spied on.

Changing religion/government favortism could potentially be, but gather intelligence is not in and of itself and that is the only thing that should be considered, nothing else because then we have to consider political situations for each and every suggestion made here.

I don't think peace mode nations should be restricted from doing anything regarding spy operations. The whole point of a spy operation is that it's a secret, so why wouldn't they be able to have a front of not wishing to be engaged in combat (Peace mode) whilst behind the scenes they actually involve themselves as much as anyone else.

The only thing is that when they get exposed they should be yanked out of peace mode and unable to return for the standard limit as exiting peace mode normally. Currently, there is no realistic reason for stopping nations who don't wish to war from engaging in secret military practices. Just as there would be no realistic reason for a nation not to chuck a nuke on someone if they found out they were in their nation and destroying their nukes, regardless of whether they say they want to be at war or not.

Tl;dr, remove the restriction on the spy ops that a peace mode nation can do, but should they be exposed they would lose their 'peace mode' shielf.

I like this idea. Do it now.

If they keep their happiness penalty (but it doesn't continue to stack) and they cannot re-enter peace mode for 5 days preventing them from collecting and hitting peace mode once again.

We should just change it so you can spy people into/out of peace mode.

Now that would mess people up.

I think that this dynamic reflects a simulated world quite well actually. Those who wish to be peaceful still exist on the same planet as the harmful nations and those harmful nations probably employ espionage. Just like many 'peaceful' nations probably engage in some espionage to protect themselves. The spy operations from or against peacemode nations are already quite limited and so I see no problem with this.