As you know, A certain Nation has been declared Persona Non Grata by his own alliance, and has been given a sentence of ZI. Due to prior abuses, I follow this nation, and have made it my sole purpose to assist in his demise in what ever fashion I am able.

As it turns out, there was an open war slot on this nation this morning, and I adjusted my capabilities to be able to fight the good fight. Permission was, of course, requested, but silence was the only answer.

Now I am threatened with ZI myself, from the Alliance prosecuting the nation as a rouge. Personal destruction is not an issue; it was assumed from the founding of my nation.

Honor. Honor is what? Alliance Honor, National Honor, Personal Honor. What does it mean in the context of Planet Bob?


So far as I can tell from my conversation with the (assumed) Military leader of this alliance, Alliance Honor means that if we are bigger than you, then Power dictates what Honor is, not actions or truths.


I don't ask for anything but an explanation.

wait what? you hit a rogue without an alliance's permission? are you part of this alliance or no? and also, if you are not, then why do you care about this other nation?

It's the VE's issue, the VE's member, and the VE is dealing with it. Aside from that, I think the simplest explanation is, "Wait your turn."

So you jumped into the middle of another alliances military operation and wonder why the are pissed at you? Is that a joke?

So if I understand you correctly, then I have to get permission to attack another nation with an open slot? I did not realize that.

It would seem to me that a "military operation" would not leave open slots, and if they did, it could be viewed as Game On.

Regardless, you haven't addressed the question.

If a nation is wearing an AA, especially one from an alliance as large as the Viridian Entente, you should get that alliances permission before attacking. If you don't, you should not be surprised if you get in trouble for attacking their AA and their targets.


You would be mistaken. ZI executions are often invitation only.

People leave slots open for staggers and such. As far as I know it is common knowledge you not jump on someone elses target. It is a matter military planning for the alliance running the op and if nothing else its just common courtesy for anyone else who wants jump in to ask first.

Good enough. So the reality is that might makes right, and truth and honor have no place in the World of Bob.


acta est fabula plaudite

You are not the martyr here, so stop acting like a petulant child. If there is a bicycle on the sidewalk, you do not have permission to take it for a ride just because nobody else is on it. Likewise, you do not automatically have permission to attack a nation wearing an AA just because there's a free slot.

This is not a might makes right issue. As The Big Bad said, it's a common courtesy issue. You made a faux pa, deal with it. Don't come wailing about truth and honor as if it is some sort of trump card that makes you immune to the consequences of your actions. Many more people have suffered and died for truth and honor than for lies and cruelty.

No martyr, no worries. I would not even post except that I see those terms thrown around like Mardi Gras beads on this board, and now I see that that is all they are.

Let's Roll, Mutha F'ers.

I would say it is you who are throwing those terms around and not anyone else. Truth is, you screwed up. you won't even really admit it, otherwise you would not be here posting as you have been. Honor, you took a slot that was not yours to take. in the OP, you stated you requested permission, but did not wait for an answer. Instead you took a slot, and instead of discussing this with VE, you came to the forums.

While, i did not think you should be ZIed before for making your mistake; your continued failure to man up to it, makes me feel differently. I would suggest instead of stating no one knows what truth and honor means, or that VE is acting the way of "might makes right", you should be asking for forgiveness for your mistake and leaving this subject to private channels instead of public.

trust me, take my advice and you may well escape ZI.

As your rolling I advise you dont accept that pending aid in your slot, or you will drag the alliance sending it to you into strife as well.

have fun

You have made a mistake I may have made were I in your place. The OP in the VE announcement thread states "The Viridian Entente hereby expells Ephriam Grey, ...".

My unsolicited advice -- Visit the VE in their public IRC channel and ask to speak with a member of government. Apologize for stepping on their toes and ask for their suggestion about how to solve the situation you are in.

That is precisely it. Welcome to the survivalist world of the New Pacific Order and its brutish toadies.

International and interalliance standards are the shackles of slavery, they say. All are free to do as they please -- except when it interferes with them doing as they please, whereupon they will sentence you to permanent destruction. All is slanted against justice and skewed in favour of large alliances. And so will it all remain until sufficient numbers express their dissent.

Good luck. Lots of people who have tiffs with Ephriam.

Uhh... I don't see how this is a case of might makes right at all. Sounds more like you just enjoy saying that you hate Pacifica at every turn.

When a nation is serving a sentence from an alliance, it is polite to allow them to choose the nations that may attack it. You didn't mess up a stagger, so your declaration hasn't seriously damaged the operation – that is the main reason to 'reserve' war slots, because otherwise your target gets jumped by three nations and they can escape to peace mode after 7 days.

Alliances like to control their punishment because it is easier to maximise damage done to the target with a well coordinated, internal strike force.

In your case, your initial 'offence' was relatively minor, but your continued aggressive posting is likely to land you in a lot more trouble than you really should be. Viridia was somewhat misleading in the fact that it explicitly expelled Ephriam and yet still 'protects' him from aggression by others. This is a common practice but it is understandable not to know that, and take the war slot. Upon being informed of this by Viridian military command, you should simply have apologised for not knowing and assured them that you would assist them as much as possible now the mistake had been made.

Your action is a breach of protocol and an honourable alliance would not do it deliberately, and that is the case whether the alliance in question is large (like Viridia) or small. Now you know .

Also, you declared war on a nation wearing the Viridian Entente AA. Even if you are 99% sure the nation is not a real member, you should always get clearance from an alliance's government to attack a nation wearing its AA.

Just to clarify a few things:

I PM'ed one of the attackers with my request at 6:00PM on Sunday, and declared war at 6:00 AM on Monday. That is 12 hours with a reset in the middle. Plenty of time for a nation at war to respond.

Secondly, when contacted, I visited the General on the VE IRC. The general did not want to discuss anything. He issued his edict and left the room.

So says someone attacking someone for no reason other than that he can.

Can't say I have a whole lot of sympathy for you considering you engage in exactly what you appear to be opposed to.

lawlz. no it is not. Since the nation was already at war, they had most likely already quad attacked. This means they do not have to be on at update to attack anymore. they can hit whenever need be. i would have told you to wiat 24 hours because some people have something called a life and may not be able to make it on but once a day or so.

The VE may be attacking a nation, but they do not own that nation, nor do they own that nation's war slots. Seems odd that an alliance so committed to abolishing Eternal ZI hands out regular ZI like it's candy.

They are threatening force against someone for exercising sovereign power to declare war on an unaligned nation (that they have publicly expelled, to boot) not explicitly sentenced. That sounds a lot like might making right to me.


They made a rather loud public announcement that he was expelled from their alliance. Should ODN nations engaging me start asking the NPO for clearance each time they declare war because I fly false colours? Those straws are not for grasping, Bob.

I would speak but its not the first time Doitzel has said it perfectly.

Ephriam's nation was explicitly sentenced to ZI:



You are actively at war with ODN and wearing Vox's AA. Ephriam is not at war with AGW Overlords and is wearing VE's AA. Also, Ephriam does not yet share your current political situation.

The comparison really doesn't hold.

So VE herself says Ephie had crimes against the CN community as a whole. The OP is part of that community right? So he has just as much right to punish as Virdia does.

any nation expelled by an alliance is usually only allowed to be attacked by said alliance. Allies can typically help, after asking. random people, not so much. it does not matter what VE stated. Ephie was a former member of VE. not AGW-O.

had AGW-O expelled Ephie only to find say, three members from other alliances hitting Ephie, instead of AGW-O members, then i would bet AGW-O would be upset.

like was said before, the OP made a mistake. Instead of working with VE, he instead started making loud noise over truth and honor. neither of which he has. that noise could be enough for VE to hit him instead of letting him go peacefully on his way.

he was still able to hit Ephie since he was at war with him. he got what he wanted. trying to make VE look bad is just plain stupid. Frankly, if the OP is still at war with Ephie, i hope VE gives Ephie permission to launch a nuke at him.

Whoa! Cowboy! This is just me, not AGWOL. I just forgot to leave before I declared. They had good relations with EG and his alliance when EG and I had our original issues.

Second, I have no wish to make VE look bad; I don't know anything about them. One of their generals, well, he could perhaps learn some manners and couth, but that is not really a big deal.


The last time this happened with EG, as my only point of reference, I was allowed to give it my best shot and failed. That one I do not hold against EG, but the needless destruction of my first nation I do.

If you're wearing their AA, yes. I would, anyway. There is precedent for the NPO pardoning and accepting former enemies (WarriorConcept, and maybe Starfox), and I'd want to check that they hadn't done the same with you before declaring.

You wait until you feel you are in a position where you can attack someone with no consequence and then have the gaul to complain about others having a might makes right mentality.

Your hypocrisy is truly impressive.

First, I'm SecDef not General. Second, I gave you a chance to just free up the slot...you not only were obviously not going to do that but actually acted like it was my job to convince you why you should.

I waited until he was in my strength range. No matter what, he was going to be attacked by me when our strength ranges crossed, just like last time. EG has been under my own personal ZI for 9 + months.


Where did this idea come from that I thought there would be no consequences for my actions?! I understood from the outset that attacking him would cause the destruction of my nation; read the OP.

Romano, what makes you think EG would peace out with me, just out of curiosity? I told you that the threat of ZI was of no consequence. I wanted to discuss ways and means of satisfying both of our goals, at which point you exited.

Yes. You have to ask us.



We also made it very clear in our announcement that we would be taking his slots.

Because he wants his sentence, at least on our end, to be over. As for "discussing ways to satisfy both our goals" there just simply are none. There is a reason slots on ZI targets aren't up for grabs by anyone who wants them. Furthermore, on this target in particular so many people asked for slots that it can be said it would be unfair to let one person have one over another.

Did you mess up the stagger on ephriam by any chance

Good enough, and fully understandable.

My apologies for the confusion, and thank you for your reasonable explanation.

I will wait for the next iteration of our countries to carry out my personal goals.

Ammon declared on the day that the first 2 initial wars expired. Efficiency purposes would generally mean we declare near update, but Ammon declared in the morning and took the slot

ya know, i am hoping that once this clears up and if Ephie is allowed to go along his merry way once more, that he joins an alliance. This way when you hit him again, he and his alliance can destroy you and possibly whatever alliance is stupid enough to harbor you.

Well...temptations aside, in that regard, Doch... Looks like an honest mistake and that he's read and understands; how many of us learn from our own, eh?

I had all sorts of quotes to answer but, Ammon seems to have understood

Let me try and explain what I mean and meant by this thread.

In this World of Bob, there are only 2 types of sanctions or coercion available.

The primary method is through power: The ability of larger nations and alliances to destroy smaller ones.

The second is through respect and honor.

These are the only forces that can be brought to bear to convince other nations to conform to another nation's wishes.

Sheer power is easy and seductive. When you have a large nation or a large alliance backing you up, it is easy to fall under the narcotic spell of perceived power and lose your sense of what honor and respect actually are. It becomes easy, if not expected, to Demand and Order lesser nations and alliances to conform to your wishes, regardless of any other factors.

Respect and honor are a little bit more complex and involved. To offer another nation or alliance respect involves honor. Honor in how you communicate and respect for the nation in and of itself as a sovereign entity. Respect and honor are not based upon a nation or alliance's strength, and it must always be assumed until otherwise proved wrong.


Overwhelming Power is easy to nullify: simply accept that your nation is forfeit, and that a new nation is both free and easy to create. No alliance or nation has any leverage over you once you you embrace this reality.

It is said that respect must be earned, but that is only half right. Respect must given before it can be earned and honor is simply a side effect of respect.


As for you, Dochartaigh, the gentleman's group that usually "harbors" me have been doing so for better than 10 years online in various online games, and though it may be true that I am stupid, you can be assured that they are not.

I highly doubt that part in bold. Though from how long you've been online I'd hazard that you may have forgotten that you are dealing primarily with teens...and sometimes what they say and what we say makes perfect sense to each of us; but, do not translate well. And that is always odd and interesting. Personally, I think you made a mistake. And learned a bit from it. In all honesty it is VE's call on how to deal with you.

I did not make a mistake as it relates to the personal goals and the honor of my nation, but it is certainly VE's call to make as to the response. But as stated, they have no power over me, because my nation is always considered forfeit, and I was given no respect, and can thus offer none.


That is the crux of the thread.

12 hours isn't enough time. Remember that in the future.

While I can see why you are upset, many of the reasons listed above are viable ones on why you should not have attacked this gentleman. You are not out to dish out vigilante justice. However, because your mistake was simple and did minimum damage, I would think that you would be spared ZI, at least by such a respectable alliance.

Not quite sure how to put this but, um.....what the hell are you talking about.

Don't short change yourself, your obviously a smart guy. I would figure that you would be able to see the cut and dry part of this issue and save your talents for a situation where you actually have a point to argue

Who were you talking to? I am a bit confused.

He is speaking to me. He is the short pants furry-hat general with power at his back who demands respect but has no concept of how to earn it.

Believe what you believe in. If you believe, although it comes with consequences sometimes, leave no regrets on the action made already.

No use arguing over the past.

You obviously dont know me, I never demand respect only earn it when due.

Also, I hate hats and rarely wear pants.

Salute! Il Imepero!

I was just making a funny.

I offered peace to EG, but I will attack him again at reset and until he accepts it. You might tell Cheddar that he is wasting money on spies, and thank him for me for paying my bills and replenishing my soldiers with his contributions.

In what way were you not shown respect?

Because it sounds like you asked the VE if you could declare on the Kingdom of Ithaca, they said, "No," and then you attacked anyway. So, from where I'm sitting, there's a words-actions disconnect.

I'm glad you seem to understand why they told you, "No," but I'm still missing where the complaint came from.

Did the guy mess the stagger up?

No ... look up the wars yourself for confirmation. He grabbed the first slot in this round of wars.