Vox Populi is an alliance[?] that has continued to grasp the fascination of the people and scholars of the Mines of Silva, and for that matter much of the civilized world. Academiacs debate about what brought about the presence of terrorist organizations like Vox Populi.

Some left-leaning analysts believe that Vox Populi and similar terrorist groups come from cultures of poverty and ignorance. Poorly managed nations are filled with people who are starving and resentful, and their leaders are all too easily able to focus the anger of the huge lower classes upon some group or another. As the incompetent or irrational leaders plunge their nations into destruction and suffering, enemies and even noncombatants are painted as evil, malicious creatures controlling the central banks or alliance institutions. Such scholars feel that all people are in general the same, and that nurturing the nations back into civilization will allow the gradual defeat of radicalism and increased prosperity.

Among these scholars are sympathizers to the terrorists who believe that the atrocities committed by extremists are not necessarily the fault of rogue nations, but rather a lack of humanitarian aid and guidance. Some go to the extent of supporting the radicals in their struggles covertly, nearsightedly hoping that these "freedom fighters" can gain their independence with increased violence. Unfortunately, such efforts can only lead to increased casualties and more tragedy. Terrorists should not be negotiated with, because from each appeased demand a dozen more will spring, until their final goals of worldwide war and domination is achieved.

Another branch of these scholars believe that increased collaboration between nations and alliances must be seen to combat terrorism, both on the battlefield, and on the streets. Combined efforts of terror-suppression and civilian education, along with an increased number of treaties and partnerships between alliances, will be highly effective in curbing the ability of radicals to peddle their wares to the disenfranchised among the world. It is notable that the Continuum and it's web of alliances has been highly effective at promoting world peace and stability; however advocates of increased world unity and participation believe more must be done.

Right-leaning analysts tend to take a more hardline view on terror and believe that increased military actions across the globe will curb the ability of terror to perpetuate itself. They note that it is very difficult to rehabilitate nations, considering the fact that their leaders can be difficult to capture, and as such military action and occupation is sadly one of the only options available.

But what do we know about Vox Populi and other radical organizations? Not much, actually. The rulers of the nations involved are often, but not always, much decreased in personal power, having run their nations into economic hard times and even destruction. Sometimes this fall from power is illustrated not only within their nations, but also on the international or even global level. Essentially, vengeance along with a desire for a return to glory on their terms seems to be fairly common (with exceptions, of course).

It is notable that the leader of Vox Populi, the Vox Dei (Voice of God), in part utilizes mysticism to convince the masses of the certain righteousness of the cause (rumors have surfaced of 12 virgins being promised to those who sacrifice their lives in terror attacks).

The nations involved are generally very fervid; they are politically active, which gives them a certain advantage over the multitudes who are politically apathetic (unless they themselves are struck by terrorist attacks). With time this proves especially dangerous, as terror attacks become infrequent and forgotten by the populace, and people begin to slip into notions of safety and security.

How can ignorance and radicalism be properly combated, and sympathizers and miscreants educated about the dangers of terror, If we are ourselves ignorant of the nature of the evil the civilized world faces? It is with the purpose of increased education and knowledge that I ask all those within Vox Populi, and its sympathizers, to fill out the following form and post it for themselves and the world to see.

It is my sincere hope that with reflection, education, and love and understanding on the part of the civilized world, that those lost to hatred and radicalism can look within themselves and embrace love, life and freedom over death and slavery of the soul.

-Count Andrei da Silva, leader of the Mines of Silva and seventh descendent of the da Silva dynasty

awesome !
cheer !

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Leave this kind of pseudo-intellectual stuff to those who are good at it.

I'm not sure why 'atrocities' committed by Vox Populi are any worse than the acts of war performed by their opponents, or FAN, or any other alliance at war. You are succumbing to lazy branding of the two sides into 'good' and 'evil' – Vox could simply take your essay, reverse the words and print it as their own, as that's exactly what they preach too.

The purpose of this thread is for the civilized world to better understand the nature of the evil it faces, not to directly attack Vox Populi per say.

See picture.

i) Per se. Learn to spell if you want to sound clever.
ii) I say: "You are succumbing to lazy branding of the two sides into 'good' and 'evil'"
You say: "The purpose of this thread is for the civilized world to better understand the nature of the evil it faces"
Notice anything stupid about that?

Well, you should also understand the ways the word evil can be used. There is evil as in moral evil, and evil as in harmful and injurious. I don't necessarily view them to be a moral evil, but rather an enemy of civilization.

so now you speak of morality? that is a very fine line to walk. Everyone's definition of morality differs from their neighbor. what you see as evil, someone else sees as good. what you see as good, someone else sees as evil. to claim your side is the good side is ridiculous. in war, no side is good as both fight for survival. no side is evil, since both fight for survival. that is the basis of all war. Yes, there are reasons and CBs and all that flashy stuff, but mostly CBs as of late are weak and useless, if not outright made up. The reasons tend to be little more than "because we can", "you looked at me wrong", or similar items.

also, to claim that Vox does not have a civilization is rather arrogant of you. it seems they have an alliance that is full of several intellectuals. Many of them articulate their arguments far better than you do. Yet, with absolutely no proof, you label them as barbarians and state their goal is the destruction of all civilization.

I will admit, they may wish to destroy your civilization, but that does not make them the enemy of all civilization. to claim that, is to attempt to claim that you and yours are everything, and again we enter into the realm of arrogance.

"I don't necessarily view them to be a moral evil"



Let's grab a brief definition, shall we, of civilization:

A civilization is a society or culture group normally defined as a complex society characterized by the practice of agriculture and settlement in towns and cities. Compared with other cultures, members of a civilization are organized into a diverse division of labor and an intricate social hierarchy.

and another:

An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

SO, while Vox may certainly have their own culture, that does not mean they are a civilization. They cannot be described as a complex society with divisions of labor (in NATO, 200 nations work with many divisions of labor, including technology and resource trade, defense, foreign affairs, internal affairs, legal department, and so forth). Vox Populi's purpose is not to grow and thrive like a civilization does (i.e. agriculture and urban development), although they have attempted to mimick civilization with the inclusion of a legal "charter." Vox Populi is inherently a militant group at perpetual war with much, if not all, of the civilized world.

Vox Populi is not civilization, it is exactly the opposite, a radical extremist group that engages in terror attacks and other forms of warfare with no other purpose than death and destruction, from what I see.



The problem is, is that Vox Populi's leaders have declared that the "treaty web must be destroyed," and other such nonsense. Guess who is part of the treaty web? Almost every alliance, in essence civilization as a whole. How can Vox Populi possibly break up this treaty web of higher civilization without the consent of those within it, without engaging in war upon all civilization to do so?

They say they are just at war with Continuum, or with NPO, or what have you, and try to legitimize themselves as some sort of nihilistic alliance concept, but dig a little deeper and you may just well find who and what they really are at war with.

But I have to admit I don't understand their goals better than the next man does, which is why I earnestly hope at least one of them will fill out the questionaire.

As fun as it might be to point out the many logical gaps in what you've written, I see others have beaten me to it. The fact that what you've written could (after simply changing a few names) be used by most alliances to describe other alliances they dislike means that there is nothing original or substantive here.



Stupid is as stupid does, I suppose.

You write a lot of words if you don't understand them.

I notice you neither read the whole topic, nor my replies, because those would help answer your questions.

As someone combating Vox Populi I need to learn more.

I love this Junkalunka. You make a powergrab in Vox, and get shot down horribly, then decide to whine for the next month about your ideas and how we should listen. Eventually, you leave. Then, you re-roll, and join an alliance in The Continuum, and begin writing anti-Vox essays. Did you only hate the NPO because they rejected you? Now, it seems you hate Vox because we thought your ideas were terrible.

What are you babbling about now? Why don't you fill out the questionaire?

so wait, VP does not have leaders? wait, yes they do, thus social hierarchy. Not to mention it has been mentioned by many within VP and from outside, that the Founders typically enjoy a form of respect given solely to them from VP members. This is another form of social hierarchy.

As for the second definition, VP has many intellectuals within their ranks. And you have even stated several times the amount of writing that VP members tend to make.

so by using both those definitions, we can establish that VP has a civilization. As for being hell-bent on destroying all of civilization, the goal of taking down the treaty web does not solely entail destroying all other alliances. In fact, VP has stated several times they only wish to go after the Pacifican based hegemon (typically seen as The Continuum and possibly One Vision). That does not mean all alliances are at risk.

Also, getting people to drop treaties for whatever reasons, does not destroy any civilization. Thus, there are other methods that can be used to "destroy the treaty web" without actually destroying any alliance.

you seem to be using considerable stretching efforts to make your argument seem the least bit coherent. You repeatedly fail to take into account anything that does not specifically support (no matter how weak that support is) your hypothesis.

I love how you are violating your own professed IC/OOC stance on re-rolls.

Hey since Count da Silva is under attack by you is it safe to assume that the player behind Count da Silva-Junkalunka or whatever is on Vox's eternal-ZI list?

That does not make civilization, you can also find that in a street gang or nomadic tribe.



No, we can't, they don't meet the other requirements, or even those ones.



Ok, how exactly would they accomplish destroying the treaty web? Why, they'd have to use military power and other leverage to force alliances to leave it, basically putting alliances between the grim choice of destruction by Vox or diplomatic isolation. The treaty web is itself the highest form of civilization in the world, Vox is directly targeting that and so they can plunge the world into a new round of dark ages and constant warfare, and presumably use their military ability to rise to the top and administer their version of a "benevolent" government.

An agenda that involves forcing alliances and nations to chose between political isolation and death by Vox, friends to cut ties and bond, all and so the world can be plunged into chaos? I can think of few more insidious things...



Examples, please.

That's ironic coming from an NPOer. Besides, he has not changed at all to be considered a different player. A different name, and avatar, and nothing more.

I wasn't aware we had an EZI list though, and I attacked him before I knew he was Junkalunka. I only found out once he began making posts saying the same thing he said to us in Vox before leaving.

How are you "combating" Vox when you only have just joined in December and barely know what they are actually fighting for and what they are about. If I remember correctly Vox and NATO rarely even trolled each other, or responded to each other until you came to these forums. If you really want to know what they are about, I suggest taking the research approach and read a variety of their essays that some of them have written and posted on these forums.

EZI is only bad when it is used on him. If they disagree with or are at war with someone, however, then it is perfectly acceptable to try to pin it on their enemy and even try to help others enforce it.

We can truly see a glimpse of a Vox Populi controlled world, now can't we? No principles, only hatred and a thirst for power...

The University of Silva employs a number of professors who are dedicated to solving the global terror phenomena, due to their research and efforts I have been briefed quite adequately. Appreciate the concern.



My professors have done so, although I will certainly also do some additional research myself and see what Vox populi stands for.

Its not ironic at all. We have practiced EZI for years rather unapologetically. The irony is you doing it. You need to grab a dictionary.



Damn that kind of rhetoric sounds familiar. Oh the Irony



Likely story. You guys have been accusing him of being a reroll for weeks. If he is Junkalunka you knew it a whole hell of a lot sooner than 3 and a half days ago. So please dont pee on my back and tell me its raining. You suspected he was Junkalunka for weeks and that played a large part in your decision to attack him dont pretend otherwise.

And you dont need to have a written list. You are attacking him both in the game and on the forums for being a re-roll of someone you dont like. And then when called on it you use the same reasoning for you actions as we in the order use. Pacifican words came right out of your moth. Oh the irony. You are bitter hypocrites nothing more.

You know what's funny is that Junkalunka left what everyone calls a "bunch of butthurt outcast" as a butthurt outcast and is now turning around to call us "butthurt outcasts" because even we won't associate with him.

Take a hint, Junka: nobody listented to this tripe when you were in Vox and nobody's going to listen to it now. Nobody will ever listen to it. Go try squeezing charisma from rocks, you need anything you can get.

"A civilization is a society or culture group normally defined as a complex society characterized by the practice of agriculture and settlement in towns and cities. Compared with other cultures, members of a civilization are organized into a diverse division of labor and an intricate social hierarchy."

that is the definition used by you. looking at this, VP has a social hierarchy. as for division of labor, they have leaders and members. that is a division of labor. thus, this one fits VP. also, gangs are part of a civilization as they usually live within a society. Nomads, have their own civilization.

though, you are correct, one portion of the definition is left out. It is also left out of every alliance within CN. that is the practice of agriculture. To my knowledge not a single alliance practices agriculture. so by your first definition, you are correct VP is not civilized, but neither are any alliances within CN.

Now, every nation of CN is a civilization. These individual civilizations gather together and form alliances. The alliances are then, in essence, extensions of the multitude of civilizations within the alliance. That gives the alliance its own form of civilization. thus, VP has a civilization.

onwards to the next rebuttal.

For one, again Vox does not need to use military force (in fact, it truly can't) to destroy the treaty web. Also, the treaty web by your own definitions, do not resemble civilization in the least. How can, what is essentially, an inanimate object have a civilization? There is no social hierarchy within the treaty web. There is no division of labor. There is no agricultural practice. No towns or cities. Thus, the treaty web is not any form of civilization, let alone the highest one.

Also, what military power? Vox has none. also, they have stated that they wish to destroy the current hegemony but not establish a new one. Thus, how will they rise to be the new one, when that contradicts their very goal? just because you say it does not make it true.

CN has periods of peace, broken up by curbstomps, where individual alliances are sacrificed to assuage the boredom (yes there are CBs but never the need for 3+ alliances on a single alliance) of the ones in power.

"An agenda that involves forcing alliances and nations to chose between political isolation and death by Vox, friends to cut ties and bond, all and so the world can be plunged into chaos? I can think of few more insidious things..."

The irony of this statement is rib-cracking hilarious. and in more than one way.

as for examples, their campaign on the forums. More and more individuals are becoming outspoken than has been in years. More and more individuals are questioning the actions of basically anyone (including but not limited to the current hegemony). At least a few of those individuals will become leaders of their alliance, or of one they create. Thus, the actions of today and tomorrow are seen, known, and will make an impact in the unknown future. but fact is, since VP, more individuals have began to speak out against what they deem atrocious behavior, than has been seen since the world was polarized.

All this energy and still no response to my questionaire...

We have not called him Junkalunka for weeks. Only a mere couple days. I don't even think he has actively posted for weeks. So, really, I am not sure where you are getting all of this from.

It is ironic though, because you called him Junkalunka the entire time he was under Mobius I. I have always respected the OOC/IC line, but this breaks nothing. All he did was change his name and avatar and apparently thinks that when I call him on who he is, he can use it against me. He is the same character, only wearing a top hat.

that could be because most, if not all, of those questions have been answered before. If you would find and read every thread by Vox Populi, then you will have your answer.

OMG now Doitzel is violating your own professed IC/OOC stance. Starfox I can kind of expect because well its starfox. Short of taking down the Order he doesnt believe in anything. He'll put a knife in your back the second he thinks it may cause Moo an hour of trouble on some idle Wednesday. But you! There has been no greater champion against eternal ZI and going after re-roll than you yet here you stand flaming him in an IC forum for being a re-roll. And the most funny part is that at no time has Count da Silva ever said 'hey guys I'm Junkalunka' which is what gets re-rolls in trouble with the Order. In fact he has been very strict on keep things strictly IC. You on the other hand not so much.

to be honest, the fact that you continue to call him Junkalunka and state that he is the same character, only wearing a top hat, does not respect the OOC/IC line. ICwise, Count da Silva is just that, Count da Silva. OOC he is whoever he is. if it is Junka, then that does not matter IC wise in the least.

according to you and others, a reroll's past should be erased. the same should be done with Silva. Junka/Mobius have ceased to exist.

We aren't the ones who formed professing the rights of re-rolls. The irony isn't with us. Its you.



OMG there it is a agian Pacifican reasoning coming right out of you mouth. But usually we wait until the guy says 'hey I'm so and so give me a government position.'

Its a lot different when the shoes on the other foot isn't it. Now you think someone you really dont like has re-rolled and suddenly all those words about IC/OOC are just that words. Suddenly you start talking like a Pacifican.

And so what if he talks and acts like Junkalunka. Does that mean if you ever re-roll you have to be gung ho for the order?

OOC: There's plenty wrong with Da Silva's attempt at 'argument' on his own merits. The fact that this character may or may not be played by a player who has previous history with Vox is not really relevant, and bringing that into the discussion does rather go against your professed antipathy to EZI and breaching the IC/OOC line.

Upon reading this, the scholars of Bat Country, ever committed to academic integrity, have decided to no longer recognize the academic credentials of people educated at the learning institutions of the Mines of Silva. If these are the fruits of Silvan academia, we don't want such people teaching our children, building our bridges or caring for our sick.



You probably couldn't have misspelled familiar any worse without it being unintelligible. That's actually very interesting.

OOC: The problem is that I have quoted ooc wikipedia, and they use "agriculture" as an example. True, in the technical sense it does not exist in CN, but in a practical matter that would be organized technology trading, aidfalls, defended peace, developmental strategies and so forth.

So, if an equivalent IC definition of civilization were to be used it would probably involve an alliance sovereign authority, divisions of labor for the purpose of growth, and the general mission of advancing the alliance materially and otherwise, providing members an opportunity to reach their potential. I think Vladimir defined it pretty well somewhere.



But can a Vox Populi nation, who's sole purpose is engaging in offensive warfare and peddling extremism, be called a civilization in the true sense? Or are they closer to militant organizations, not even rogue states? Are they developing above the primitive level, or free of war long enough to engage in the normal activities of civilization?



The treaty web of course is just paper, but it is a form of legal framework that bonds all the different alliances together, allowing them to function essentially as a larger civilization and engage in trade and all the things we see.

Another question though, how exactly is Vox to destroy this web without military force? The only way people will leave the treaty web is by convincing them that it is in their self interest to do so... only way I can see to do that, is by threatening said people with military force if they do not. That's incidentally why Vox Populi and other terrorists can never be allowed peace or the chance to grow so long as they profess these goals.



It is easy for a politician to pronounce all sorts of promises, but by looking at their histories we can properly see them to be liars.



Enlighten me.



It is a good development that more and varied viewpoints are seen, I see this as one of Vox's more positive legacies. However, not all of these viewpoints are valid, and it is good to be able to defeat them logically. Ultimately rulers like starfox will never be a threat because they don't comprehend sophisticated logic, the only potential theats are rational, logical people, and they will be persuaded by the correct points of view.

edit

I think people made it clear at this point that they aren't interested in your questionnaire...

I'm going to assume that's because they know that they will have a difficult time answering it honestly.

from what i see, VP has everything the bolded section has. again everything you state they don't have.




tech-raiders use war for growth purposes. in fact many alliances across CN use tech-raiding for growth. War is something that has nothing to do with civilization and almost all alliances in CN have warred at one point or another. to prove a point, FAN has grown despite being in constant warfare with several alliances. Alliances allied to NATO engage in offensive warfare and many peddle extremism as well. you are in fact peddling extremism in this very thread.



the treaty web does no such thing. the friendships and sentiments behind said paperwork does that. That is why several alliances review their treaties at some point and then drop many due to the fact that the friendship or communication behind them no longer exists at the level that was present at the time the treaty was written up. Thus, the treaty web does not allow for any such bond, nor does it function as a larger civilization. As for trade, trade can happen between enemies, friends, neutrals, unaligned, or anything in between. the Treaty web does not bring about trade as it existed long before this version of the treaty web.

and on that point, several versions of treaty webs have been existence before. this is only the current one. Thus, since the treaty web has been proven to be a temporary institution, how can it be a larger civilization. That is unless you are saying that the collapse of the minor treaty web that existed prior to the GPW (GW1), or the collapse of the treaty web after GWIII brought down the collapse of all of civilization (i.e. alliances) in CN at that time?



CN has watched as those you and your alliance are allied to, has forced alliances to drop treaties. Does that make them terrorists? Also, again, new leaders are born every day in CN. They may not be leaders currently but in the future they will. Thus, every action taken by anyone is under scrutiny and could very well be remembered. With the outspoken nature of CN today, this means that the leaders see much more than has been seen in a long time.

VP helped usher in this period of outspokenness.




can you provide proof that they are liars?




"An agenda that involves forcing alliances and nations to chose between political isolation and death by Vox, friends to cut ties and bond, all and so the world can be plunged into chaos? I can think of few more insidious things..."

for one, again alliances you and your alliance are allied to have done the very same thing. on more than one occasion. if it is so wrong, why are you in an alliance that actively supports(by supporting those who commit them) those activities?



For one, there are never any correct or valid points of view. The very nature of a point of view is that it is individualistic and thus, it is seen as right by the individual. only cold-hard facts can actually upset another's point of view. There are points of view that are more factual than others and that makes them more valid but since no one ever knows the whole story, no point of view can ever be 100%, unless you speak of your own personal action/thoughts within a story. In which case, that still does not provide the whole story.

That goes for everybody. Count da Silva is obviously very passionately opposed to Vox. Starfox is obviously very opposed to Silva. I'm never really one to say 'can't we all just get along', but the hamster will never get out of this wheel. There has to be more entertaining things to do than have the same fight over and over again.

i agree. though, i am amused sometimes by this.

Wow, you're funny.

Does the staff perhaps include a few [The] Scholars?


Just tell your member to shut up.

In before "I thought you were about the lifting of oppression."

Maybe Vox works that way, but Anu Drake is correct, all I see from Vox in this thread is general off topic behavior. Dochartaigh, however, has provided interesting commentary and debate, too bad you need him to do your thinking.

It's simpler than that. Count da Silva is so passionately opposed to Vox (way more than a new ruler should be) that he is making an idiot of himself, and various people are calling him on it.

Nice post though.

The idea that Vox is a terrorist cell is absurd. We have not used fear as a weapon for anything. In fact, our 1 rule(no OOC attacks) runs directly counter to us trying to intimidate anyone.

Now your trying to use a real world definition to proof an in game idea. Division of labor for example, is not needed in game as much as in Real life. Every nation can do everything. Even so, we do have all those things.

We have divisions of labor. We have Mods, senators and leaders which each have different roles in Vox, thus a division of labar.

We do certainly want to grow and thrive. Vox makes efforts to recruit new members, and for us to truly thrive would require the abolishment of certain current world orders, which we work our hardest to accomplish.

Might wanna ask starfox about his policy on policing members of EZI using IPs.

Who have I ever betrayed? You guys have thrown this around multiple times today, without providing any proof. I've been betrayed, stabbed in the back, and kicked around by supposed friends, but I've never done the same in return.


OOC: LennyNKarl asked for proof, I pointed him to our IRC channel, where Junkalunka and Count Da Silva sit on our ban list, with the same IP, essentially. I don't see how that is policing IP's.

Want an old example? How about asking someone to nuke an ally. I already listed how you were a hypocrite a post above.