I think WE is going far away from where it should be. If we continue down this path we will be at war we never asked for. We are letting ourselves be controlled in exchange for protection. Protection over freedom is what MCXA has given us. It's clear as day light this war is about the controllers versus the controlled, The liberators and the tyrants, puppets versus puppet masters. If you haven't realized by now MCXA is a puppet master. MCXA sees us much like Pyramid as puppets to do their bidding and nothing more.

Our "protectors" are not the only thing wrong with this alliance. Even within our own ranks and government there are dirty plotters who hide their true intentions. Racism and communism are both things WE and CN should not stand for it has killed millions of people and there is nothing "cool" about gulags and genocide. All forms of Communism are pure evil. I absolutely cant stand it. Why? Communism as glorious as it may seem has failed countless times because of one reason. Humans are greedy and with power they become tyrants. One of the worst communist leaders, Josef Stalin, invented political correctness. Stalin and Lenin both killed millions of innocent people. I mean he killed more Russians than Hitler ever did. Political correctness is tyranny with manners. This reminds me of someone I know as well as do you. Lord Frost is a communist Neo-liberal. Now with him I let the liberal part pass by but he just had to be a communist.Before you judge me know that I am not a conservative. I believe that Frost is a tyrant of actions and ideals. His views have clouded his choices and ruined relations with great alliances most recently the libertarians and good people at United Federation of Armatus.

I have always been opposed to our relationship with CPCN. I realize that I failed to speak my opinion when I should have and Frost told me this himself. I don't just oppose it because they are communist but rather because of one of their treaties. To be specific the ODP with =SE=. I dislike this because their leaders are openly Stalinist. I believe if you think Stalin was a good leader you are worse than Hitler. Lastly I would like to inform you that as I hit post I am resigning from WE. I'd rather not explain but if you must know ask me on IRC. I can't stress enough that I love WE. I just can't stand to see where its going and won't stand for it.

You did what you felt was right and I respect that.
You have friends at UFA.

Stalin has as much to do with Communism as Hamas does with Democracy.

But I think this is something you should have discussed with your government through private channels. I doubt they will be happy with you posting your complaints here publicly.

Otherwise, please have a nice day and good luck eliminating corruption, and removing you protectors:)

believe me im not

Of course you aren't frost.
You have been exposed for what you really are.

OOC attacking me in Public. despicable really

Dear OP: Do you have an issue with communism because you disagree with the policies and ideals its is based on? Or is it that you just do not like what Joseph Stalin did [that entire murder/gulag/mayhem thing]? This question was out of curiosity.

Also this really shouldn't be discussed here. I believe your concerns would be best addressed within your alliance and not in public where people either don't care or are glad to see strife within your alliance. Also, if you disagree with the path taken by your Alliance, you could just stop being a part of it and go elsewhere, as many do, in all alliances, daily. Your post seems to me more of an attempt to create a problem between MCXA and WE. I could be wrong in this assumption, but thats how it seemed to me.

So, posting this on our forums for everyone to see wasn't good enough?

Maybe if you didn't vanish from time to time, and I dunno, got on IRC, you would feel more comfortable.

But no, it's all Frost's fault, for having his own beliefs.

Poor show.

Don't let the door hit you.

Somehow, I think we'll survive without class acts like yourself.

Somehow.

OOC attacks are for the weak =\.

Bah honesrlt this could of been settled in much better ways
=WE= is a good alliance we are still worken out lil kinks here and there.
Frost dos a great job altho he dos mistakes. But we all do, I spoke out what i thoguht of him just like mmmm was it yesterday? And frankly i think i was wrong lol, But just doing this is a shame -.-

You really believe that? Someone thinking that might be a bit dense, but worse than Adolf Hitler??

As an Anti-Stalinist Communist Nation, the People's Republic of Madonia strongly condemns the statements of the original poster and recognizes said statements as being representative of a view born of ignorance and fear of the unknown.

If you think the -SE- or the CPCN are really all that Stalinist, you're forgetting that we've collectively rid ourselves of dictatorial traitors like Demokratikos and Silent during the course of our warming relations with one another. You should come by and visit us sometime. We have cake (and it's not a lie

Also, would a Stalinist protect those silly wacky anarchist Black Guards over at the LSF? Mind you, the Party was founded by LSF members.

Also,

male chickens


This post reflects the opinions of a former LSFer and a current CPCN member of the General Assembly, which is a direct-democratic voting bloc of all active forum members, open to all members of the Party. Pretty effin 'Stalinist' if I do say so, myself.

Also, good job embarrassing your government, though I applaud you for speaking your mind so bravely. I still like you guise, though.

Great job posting about how much you hate us and or allies.

Anyway, if you were so opposed speak out and if you really hate =WE= just leave. Thats it, sure SE may have been first founded by silent and some definantnly still value him as a friend, but no doubt they have rejected many of his ideas. SE is independent of silent and all those ideologies. the CPCN has always been committed to democracy and SE has held elections.

Your accusations are false and misplaced.

Go easy on the kid, he can't be older than 12, judging by the OP.

As another Anti-Stalinist Marxist nation, Aquarius also condemns the OP.

Try actually reading Marx and not lumping Communism with Stalin.

You don't lump Communism with Stalin, and we won't lump Capitalism with Saddam. Savvy?

It would make a lot more sense if communists were religious, because thinking their economic theories will work requires a belief in a bigger miracle than Jesus ever is recorded as performing.

Sounds like Vox Populi is for you.

I am highly insulted by your grouping us commies with the racist scum. It is obvious that you are an ignorant person, probably relatively young, who has no graps on the basics of marxist theory. You think of the propaganda your government has fed you about Soviet Union and only connect that to Communism. Of course all of this is actually OOC and has nothing to do with Cybernations so...

Lets just say that I, as the Chairman of the Communist Party of Cybernations, am highly offended by your ignorant statements and I only hope that one day you will have the proper knowledge to really judge our ideals.
PS. I am yet to purge anyone and I have never sent anyone to gulags.

ZOMG! reds under the -WE- bed!!

I think it is now quite apparant that this was not an anouncement at all, but nothing more or less than an excuse to troll those of us who are proud enough to call ourselves communists. Communism has, historically, been responsible for only the deaths of criminals, scoundrels, and oppressive capitalists.

Furthermore, your grouping of communism and racism together is nothing more than a blatant attempt to discredit an ideology which has a lot of respect in the Cyberverse. There are over half a dozen communist alliances, and none of them are racist.



Hmm, sounds a bit out-of-character, no? I should remind you that this is an in-character thread. Since you started it, however...

Lenin killed no one who did not fight against him. Stalin killed many people, and many of them deserved it. Not all, mind, I do not deny that Stalin killed many inocent people. The majority of those he killed, however, were criminals. If someone is killed in the United States for something that constitutes a crime in the United States, and not in other countries, no one questions it. So why do people question those actions of Stalin that were in fact lawful within the Soviet Union?

More importantly, what about the power (and corruption) of captalists, and large corporations, nowadays? Should Wal-Mart be allowed to be corrupt, and corrupt many other government officials?

I am deeply troubled by this out-of-character, biased, and underanded attack.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=33411

everyone plz view the above link. He has made his apology under threat of continued tech raiding due to the fact he promised he would when he realized that he made an OOC attack in public and felt terrible about it. Despite the fact he will continue to dislike me because of my RL beliefs, he has been forgiven...

Before you directly insult communism, learn a little bit about it. Study it.

And Stalin is a disgrace to communism. He is just one person, because Stalin was a bad ruler, doesnt mean communism is that bad. Sure others things are better, maybe. It depends on what you like. But dont go dissing Lenin though, for he was a true and good leader. the USSR could have been a truly great nation if he would have lived. But the killings during Lenin's time was actually Stalin. He came up with it and encouraged Lenin to go through with it. Lenin didnt support it at first. And the ones that were killed were against Lenin. He didnt kill people just for the fun of it or if he though something.

And Hitler just doesnt compare to communsim, Stalin or Lenin at all.


This is just my opinion but it contains facts.

OOC: Comrade General, FTW


psst. stop by #cn-va CG

In the end people its just a game.....

You can hold any believe you like Frost, ether you be a commi, Republican or anything else, Its your choice not anyone elses

Unless you try and push your religion or believes on anyone else, i have no trouble with you being a communist. (If you are one )

I first saw this thread a couple of days ago, but didn't want to gravedig it. Now that it's been gravedug, here goes.


I gather from these two sentences that you think racism and communism are analagous, or that one is directly and intimately linked to the other, or that the praxis of one comes from that of the other. Nothing could be further from the truth. The communist movement was the first explicitly internationalist movement, proclaiming openly the "workers have no country" (The Communist Manifesto), that human liberation can only be achieved once humans give up their parochial definitions of identify and nationhood (On the Jewish Question), and the racism is bad (no source for this one, or rather, too many sources that don't reduce their statements to this simple form). Similarly, modern racialists have ever been supporters of capitalism (racialism came into being along with capitalism as a result of the transatlantic slave trade, and was developed in its modern form by Gobeneau, who declared that modern industrial development emerged where aryans were the most concentrated: England, northern France, west Germany, the Low Countries).

Then again, there is the subjectification of ideas inherent in your second sentence, which is perhaps worse than the confusions as to what racism and communism are. Apparently, "racismandcommunism" [the removal of spaces is to show that the two idea systems are analogous in your mind] has a body, walks, talks, and carries out life functions. Racismandcommunism doesn't kill people. People kill people using any number of justifications that salve their consciences.

Also, about gulags, and genocide, I absolutely agree. However, you fail to link these to communism (I won't defend racism; someone else of either a far higher or far lower moral character than I may do so) in these sentences. Do you succeed later? We shall see.


I guess you don't succeed in linking gulags and genocide to communism[ists]. For one thing, you don't seem to have a clear idea as to what communism is. Here's what I conceive communism to be: a system of analysis that views progress in society as the result of class struggle, which identifies the working class in capitalist society as the historical bearer of a post-capitalist society, and which sees that post-capitalist society as having the basic features that all property is socialized, work ceases to be an alienating and unfulfilling activity, and all humans can realize their individual potentials and become self-actualized. Now, how is wanting to bring about a society in which all humans can become self-actualized evil? It would seem to me that this is the goal of every humanist. So, either humanism is also evil, or there is something distinguishing communism and humanism that makes communism specifically evil. What distinguishes communism from other forms of humanism is the historical analysis of class struggle and the programme of workers' revolution as the means towards that good society. Apparently, a mode of seeing the world and an achievable programme of action for improving it given the development of production is evil. But a mode of seeing the world can't be evil, since it is derived from observation of what is actually happening. Therefore, either what is actually happening is evil, or the programme of action is evil. Capitalism, what is actually happening, is not evil according to you, since you claim to be a conservative and state that you can live with liberals in your next sentences, and both conservatism and liberalism are essentially accepting of capitalism. Therefore, the only thing that can be evil is the workers' revolution. Why? Because it threatens private property as the foundation of capitalist society and the major obstacle in the path towards post-capitalist society. i.e., it is evil because it threatens the status quo.

BUT WAIT! Communism is not evil, according to you, because it threatens the status quo! It is evil, according to you, "because it has failed countless times...because humans are greedy." That is, it is evil because it is against human nature, and because "it has failed". To address the second point first, communism as a method of analysis and a programme of action has not "failed." A method of analysis can only "fail" if proved wrong, which hasn't happened. Communists have certainly failed in their efforts to realize the programme of action, but this is primarily due to their individual qualities and even more so to the conditions in which they were operating. To bring up your own example, Lenin and the party he led failed to realize post-capitalism in Russia because the world working class failed to follow the example of the Russian working class to a great enough extent, i.e., to the seizure of power. In Germany, for example, it failed to do this because it was befuddled to an extent by the machinations and deceptions of the SPD, and because of the failure of revolutionaries to organize themselves in such a way as to maintain clarity and combat these campaigns. Because post-capitalist society can only be truly realized in an international framework (workers have no country), the failure of the world working class led to the collapse of the revolution in Russia and the regression of Russia back to capitalism within a short period of time. This point will come up again.

Now, to go on to the subject of human nature, I defy you to prove that all human beings are greedy at all times, and that this greed represents itself at all times in the form of acquisitiveness. Obviously this is impossible, but if you make an assertion about something, it is really your responsibility to prove it. If you cannot do you, you have no business making the assertion. You could cite a source by someone who has attempted to prove this, but upon closer examination, you would find that your source actually contradicts your assertion. One of the more common sources for this assertion is Adam Smith (I apologize for arguing against a straw man here, since I have no idea what you would actually say in this situation, but the argument needs to go more into depth). However, Smith in his Theory of Moral Sentiments clearly states that different classes of society have different ethics based on their relation towards labor. He also states that the happiest man is not the ambitious, acquisitive man, but the prudent man whose conditions of life stay pretty much constant throughout his life, steadily and barely noticeably improving. This meshes rather well with the communist assertion that different societies spawn different ethical systems, and that the ethical system of post-capitalist society will be based on improving the common good and solidarity and fellow-feeling with one's fellow man.

Furthermore, even if we do take it as true that all humans are greedy at all times and that this greed manifests itself at all times in the form of acquisitiveness, where does this leave us? It actually lends further support to the communist programme of action! A major point in this programme is that social property is managed by those who use it. The workers control the means of production. Does this not mean that they are actually acquiring more under post-capitalist society than they are under capitalist society, where the most any worker gets is a moderate collection of commodities and perhaps, if lucky, a bit of real estate?

If communism is not evil because it contradicts the status quo, if it is not evil because it “has failed”, if it is not evil because it “goes against human nature”, then why is it evil?

It must be because certain communists (or self-professed communists, more on this later) did despicable things. Now, apart from the fact that this doesn’t discredit either the mode of analysis or the programme of action, but only the specific actions of these specific individuals, these actions have to be analyzed in their context. The enclosure system in England was certainly an amoral action, putting many people out of work, causing a minor famine, and, not incidentally, disrupting the status quo. However, it led to the migration to industrial towns, thus laying the foundation of the English working class and thus post-capitalist society (which is good because it helps people develop self-actualization and thus happiness) in England. The Bolshevik seizure of power, while undemocratic, conniving, and in other ways amoral, was a necessary step towards the success of the world revolution (other necessary steps were not taken, leading to its failure). The Red Terror certainly resulted in the deaths of thousands of people, and was carried out to the extent that it was due to Lenin’s personal need for revenge for an assassination attempt, but in the first few months was used in order to safeguard the revolution. Thereafter it became an instrument for dismantling the same, particularly after 1921, at which point it ceases to be something that communists can be blamed for, since every action taken at about that time or thereafter actually harmed the revolution and was protested by what would become the Left Communist current.

This brings us to Stalin, the Communist Bugbear. There are two reasons why arguments using Stalin’s actions to discredit communism are weak. First, Stalin was a specific individual, prone to individual failings. Second, he did not rule a state presiding over post-capitalist society and in fact the figurehead of the counterrevolution! The policies of abandoning the international revolution, of concentrating power in the hands of the state rather than the soviets, of the reintroduction of Russian imperialism, while they may not have originated with him found their greatest expression in the state which he ruled. All these policies are contrary to everything in the communist programme of action. Furthermore, he was a rather bad dialectician and so couldn’t really get into the communist mode of looking at the world. Also, inventing political correctness (I have my doubts about this claim, but they’re not really relevant) is again something you can attribute to an individual and not to a mode of looking at the world and a programme of action. Political correctness has virtually nothing to do with the mode of looking at the world (it seeks to dampen and hide conflicts, causing them to fester, rather than to let them reach their conclusions, as in the dialectical method), nor does it have any real place in the communist programme of action, which demands the destruction of all conception of nationality as a barrier to human freedom rather that “multicultural” “respect” and “toleration” of all nationalities and their “traditions”, as in political correctness.

Now, if communism isn’t evil for any of the reasons you cite, then you cannot prove that it is evil, thus you have no basis for your claims.


While I haven’t talked to Lord Frost at any great length, and thus can’t really dispute your claims, I find the concept of a “communist neo-liberal” rather odd. Certainly, not having witnessed the events which you talk about, I cannot confirm or deny your accusations of Lord Frost’s tyranny or bad judgment. However, I will say that Western Empire seems to be, from an outsider’s point of view, on a positive path, and it certainly hasn’t gotten into major trouble recently.


I only wish our relationship was good enough that you would feel compelled to speak out against it. After all, from what I can find, =WE= has no embassy on our boards, we have no treaties, and there exists virtually no relationship whatsoever outside of IRC. As for our treaty with -SE-, if you actually looked at the history of our relationship with them post-Demokratikos, you will notice that we got progressively friendlier the more they adopted a democratic style of government, i.e., the farther away from implementing a CN approximation of Stalinism they got. As for Stalinists being worse than Hitler, it depends on the individual.

[/gravedig]

Heh actually Sovyet =WE= DO have an embassy, problem is I never got any real activity from CPCN diplomats >.>

Perhaps the reason, more for my mistake rather than the lack of activity, is that i's misnamed "Western Coalition" rather than "Western Empire".

You were right to speak your mind about things, but you are wrong in what you say. SE is not stalinist in the slightest, all traces of Stalinism and Silentism have been washed away IC. OOC beliefs and ideals are completely their choice, as with any alliance, as long as they dont set foot in CN for a second.

You damage your government in what you say hugely. =WE= is a thriving, and excellent alliance, and Communist members may well have played a part in rising it up. Certainly CPCN stands by and supports the government of =WE=, who we signed the PIAT with. We would never allow such a government to fall to coup, even by people claiming to stand under the same ideals as us.

IN this you are wrong for mistrusting CPCN.

TGEF.

Heh? people still hating on Communism? *sigh*

It is an ideology like any other, the proponents of Capitalism, communism [any flavor] etc. are free to manage and run their economies and society as they deem fit. Seriously, to attempt to taint a belief system just because of a couple of aberrations is folly. The good or bad of an ideology is in itself, not in how a couple of its adherents twist said ideology to carry out their own agenda. Its akin to saying that a religion is pro-terrorism just because some of its followers are violent.

All right guess I might as well post now.

Ok first off =WE= is not corrupt. The government is here to listen to the people and we act on their behalf.
Secondly. =WE= likes the communist alliances on CN. There good people and ive seen time and time again how they are willing to help friends in need.
Thirdly. =WE= welcomes all Communist alliances to our forums if they wish to try to have relations with us. =WE= have friendly relations with -SE- and other alliances and I only hope they can get even better.

Fourth. CPCN. Ill make sure we get some more diplomats to your forums so we can get friendlyer.

Yum, new diplomats.

/me licks chops and starts putting on ridiculous plastic bib.

/me wonders if SG knows the meaning of the words "Concise and to the point"

All the same, he is right.

I do, I just think "exhaustive" and "pedantic" fit better with my personality. So does the phrase "kind of a jackass".

As much was shown by our argument on the CPCN boards

Indeed, sir...

What was your alias on the CPCN forum?

lol thx

and alright.

Only evil and wicked people mourn the death of the exploiters and parasites who have oppressed humanity for decades, the people who died as a result of class struggle were fascists and other backward monsters who preyed on humanity, to steal like pirates from the labor of the poor and hungry.

After all, the French Revolution was just as bloody as the Revolution in Russia, yet the French revolution has found it's respectable place in history as the event with abrogated feudalism and the aristocracy and serfdom.

The only reason the socialist revolutions of the last century are still scorned and attacked maliciously with lies and slander, is because socialism is the system which is the gravedigger of capitalism. The capitalists all know that they are doomed.

you sure are

Just how many times has this thread been dug up? At any rate I'm surprised I missed this when it was posted. You obviously know nothing of -SE- or the people who have kept the flame of socialism burning all this time. We have a policy of leftist pluralism, which means any and all left leaning individuals, be they anarchists or Stalinists have a place in the people’s empire. In fact we have had this policy since the Silentist era.

I won't pretend to be as knowledgeable on Marxist theory as Gelibolu but I can see ignorance a mile away.

I find it rather humorous how the OP managed to lump Hitler in with Communism, lmao.

Try to study an ideology before you speak out of your rear-end. And if you are still not convinced, catch me on IRC.

Good day

/occ