(If this is in the wrong section of the forum, I apologize.)

I am sure I will probably be irking a good group of people by posting this, but it's getting ridiculous and has no effect whatsoever on anything anyone posts.

What I'm referring to is people making a post in a thread that states "Place Holder". The reason this usually happen is either a.) The OP is a wall-of-text and the poster does not want to wait until they have finished reading it before making a post, usually stating that they will "read it later", or b.) the infamous "first!" post that for some reason everyone in clambering all over these threads to get. It's a tad irritating when a thread is filled with tons of "place holders" that are edited long after the first few pages of the thread have been filled up.

If you want to post in a thread, read the OP. Whether your post is the first or the fifteenth, it's going to be read by someone.

Your not "irking" me, I agree with you 100%

It's annoying to read a thread that's 30 pages, the first 5 are placeholders, the rest are either "o/'s" or trolling. Personally I think that ALL "firsts" and posts containing nothing but "o/" should be banned, regardless of if there is anything worthwhile in the post.

That's my 2.5 cents. (Stupid economy)

Only place a placeholder should be allowed is a "datadump" thread (Alliance statistics, etc)

I agree with you on the trolling, but "o/" doesn't bother me too much. Because unlike "place holder", at least you know that o/ means the person posting agrees with the OP (or whatever they're talking about).

You wont be able to work this.

Simply because I could put "o/" or whatever in my original post then suddenly have a sudden flash of brilliance and decide I want to write something else in - but because of this policy on place holding Id get whacked with a warn by the mods so to get around that Id simply make a new post.

All this will do is fill threads up with more drivel than most of them already are due to people deliberately avoiding warns by making a new post - I know I would; besides it doesnt bother me that people do it, Im not going to get all bitter because someone beat me to post #2 or even 100 as Ill have my say regardless.


EDIT* Damn why did you put this in moderation? I wouldnt have posted here if I had realized prior to posting - suggestion box ftw!

Take a look at the rest of the topics here, and you'll quickly see why.
"Ban on hailing of any kind"
"Censorship of acronyms representing profanity"
etc.


Then there's no need for a place holder then, is there?

I think placeholders can often be very valuable, and I really don't see them used often at all. Many people only read the first page of a thread and then skip to the end, so it's important for closely involved government members to get their say in quickly, where it will be read.

Just a note that this discussion is about "Place Holders", not the "ban all hailing"-debate all over again.

o/ by itself is considered spam, it has no more relevance than a smiley.

Also, this is the correct forum for this. Moderation main forum is for discussion of moderation issues just like this one.

Looking at it from a bit of a different angle, is it within roleplaying guidelines? You cant really just yell out PLACEHOLDER in an assembly of world leaders.

I seriously just LOL'd. As trivial as that sounds, he actually has a point.

he does

True, but in such assemblies, generally whoever begins speaking first gets heard first. On forums, whoever can type the fastest or makes the shortest statement gets heard first. That means long posts full of useful content will get lost in the general shuffle buried several pages in whereas the first several pages will be general hailing, agreement posts (QFT) or assorted one liners. Place holder is very much that, walking up to the microphone before anybody else and opening your mouth so you get heard before they do.

From an RP point of view, it is actually sensible, though I admit the imagery was funny. And, so long as something worthwhile gets added, it probably isn't a bad policy to keep it legal. If people begin abusing it to edit in "first" and that crap, then start slapping them down.

I once made a CN wiki page for EDEN, but before adding all the information in, I put "Information Coming" to let everyone know it was in the process of being posted. My page got deleted because the mod stated "Then don't create the page until you have all the information. There's no need for just "Information Coming" "

Thinking back on it, I totally agree.

If you have a post to make, then make it, don't just put "information coming" until you think of something to say, even if it's as simple posting a quick statement saying you have more to say on the subject and will post it shortly. THEN if you want to edit your original post, include the link to your new post. By doing this, people who are just starting the thread can see the link to the post containing the information, but for those who have already read past the first post (and don't know you edited it) can still see it later on in the thread.

I haven't seen very many of these, but when people post them, it's usually in the threads that everyone knows are going to be the 800 post behemoths that get skipped over by anyone coming in late. If the relevant replies are on the top, then at least they'll get read, while the rest of the thread becomes the type of arguments we all love this game for.

So I say they probably don't hurt.

Posting just to get the first reply is a little more annoying though.

/me glares at Atlas. You Mod's run in packs dont you.... You told him to say that didn't you Atlas?




All kidding aside, I agree 100%, simply placing "Place holder" on a thread in the AP section is just plain irritating and in my opinion is just trying to be an attention whore. Trying to make sure that your ideas are read first.... If you think that your opinion is so important then you are probably wrong.

Depending on who is the one marking the place, they very well could be important enough to warrant their post being read first. For example, say the one having the place held is Moo. Generally if he is bothering posting at all, it is important and needs to be read by most of the game, given he carries the biggest stick amongst the player base. When used correctly, placeholding actually can serve a valuable purpose. When abused by people who actually have nothing to say, just want to be first, then I think it a good idea to moderate it.



Or you can include a link back to the OP in the thread indicating you edited it, as I did in my first thread as Viceroy of Legion when Moo agreed to give Legion protection.

This is true, however...

If the topic at hand were so important, wouldn't another thread be more prudent? If it did not merit another thread, then couldn't you wait the few minutes it took you to type up a post and post it, even if it is a page or so later?

No post of any one player is considered more important than that of another so it seems the determination that needs to be made is how often the "place holding" practice is used for high-quality posts as opposed to "first" [insert contentless words to keep more than one word and on-topic] and other such posts. If it's more abused than anything perhaps we need to do away with it as suggested by the OP.

In my experience, since I first saw it happening over a year ago, it is only abused or used by posturing alliance leaders to get their message conveyed on the first page, aware that many users only read the first and last pages of a thread. I would like to see it put to an end but I am unsure how enforceable it would be, as it requires moderators to catch such posts before they are edited with more content.

Yes, I agree, it would be quite hard, and not to mention time consuming to find these posts. Although it is a good idea, it does seem like a lot of effort for something that seems so minor. I am a mod on several forums and I know that it can be time consuming just looking out for the bad stuff, let alone stuff that might not be there for 5 minutes and then disappear.

It seems like when I first joined "Firsting" was huge, but it died down for a while and now it's back. I agree that it's nothing more than spam.

The concept is good, but how can you find all the people "placeholding" are we going to have anyone that edited within the first page warned for placeholding. It would take a lot more mods just to catch people placeholding because there are tons of new threads a day. Like i said its a good concept but not plausible within the confines of the CN Forums.

Doitzel, I believe that mods can see posts pre-edited by clicking on a "history" button for the post. I am not sure if these forums has that feature, but that is how you can catch something like this a little later then trying to catch it right when they are posted.

I believe that getting rid of "placeholder" posts is an excellent idea. For one it basically gets rid of some trivial posts like the infamous "firsts". Since no one person has a more important voice on the forums than another(yes we are all equals), it shouldn't be needed by anyone.

I'd actually be in favour of getting rid of editing altogether - if you need to clarify something then make a new post!

I agree. The only time placeholders serve a purpose are in Statistic threads because sometimes it is easier to read in depth stats is they are broken up over multiple posts. Other than that it is just an annoyance.

Like Doitzel said though it would be a near impossible rule to enforce.

Placeholders have some usefulness in certain threads.

And IMO, they're not REALLY an issue elsewhere, maybe a minor annoyance. I'd say banning these posts is more trouble than worth.

Ban placeholding in certain contexts.

Probably the simplest thing is to take away that which the poster desires by placeholding.
Ban "edit first" or "first!" or whatever words the user posts that convey the same meaning.

That sill allows users to post "Reserved" and then type out an essay response as the second post without incurring punishment. Still allows for stats threads and the like.

As for the rationale that people post this crap to make sure they make the front page... if the crap was banned they would have less worry over having to race for the front page. It'd be much easier.

I don't understand all this ridiculous talk about how 'enforceable' it is... If it's made illegal to do so, the vast majority of people won't do it. And if they do, they'll be reported.

It's illegal to post one word posts, or 'spam' posts - moderators manage to enforce the rules in that situation without too much trouble.

The question should be if it's necessary, not whether it's possible or not. I personally think it'd be great, I'm the kind of person that would love to see a ban put on all 'firsts' and any form of hailing in the OWF.

Edit: Also, as for alliance leaders and officials needing to get a post in on the first page of a thread... What's wrong with copy/paste? If you have a pre-set reply for a thread about to go up, just be ready to hit reply, hit 'cntrl+v' and hit post. That's just as quick as typing: 'Reserved.' and then going back and editting.

This is a much different situation than spam posts. Placeholders are, as a rule, edited after the fact to look like perfectly acceptable posts. The reason this will be near impossible to moderate is that a moderator would have to catch the placeholder before it was edited which in most cases is only a matter of minutes.

No, but if it's not legal then high officials from big alliances will not go out of their way to break the rule. And if it really is an important post, then there will be a lot of people looking at it (going off the same logic as was used to allow the officials to 'placehold' in the first place), and we'll all get to see if someone tries to 'placehold' and I'm sure there will be someone with a grudge against said alliance that would be happy to report it.

I honestly don't see enforceability as an issue here.

The trouble is if it is decreed that "Members who post place-hold will be warned" the members who currently use place-holding will just disguise their posts as something else.

For example, I could go into a new thread, not read the OP and just post "Interesting read, good post" or something. Before going back to read the OP and editing my post to respond. On the surface, that probably wont look suspicious enough to any mod who sees it to earn me a warn (even though I would clearly be place-holding) as they would be un-able to tell if I was trying to place hold or if I just posted something and then later decided to add more to it.

True, but the majority of posts in any thread and not just on the first page basically only say, 'Interesting post, good read' anyway.

Meh, I don't think place-holding is as big of a deal as 'firsting' and just general hailing.

At least that would be more enjoyable to read than "place holding".

I think you guys are reading this with the wrong mindset. I'm not saying "We should make it against the rules to go back and edit your post with more information", just the whole "place holding" bit. I would rather read "Interesting read, good post" than "place holding" or "first!"

Agree.

I'd go so far as to say editing in 'First' shouldn't be allowed at all. Presumably anyone who reads the thread like a normal person (ie, scrolling down) already knows the first post after the OP is first, we don't need a reminder. Sitting F5'ing the topic list isn't some kind of achievement, either.

Why not just require more characters to be in a post? If you set it to say Twenty before you are allowed to post, then that would get rid of a lot of short phrase. Common ones would be "first," "o/ <Alliance> (unless they decided to type it out)," or "I agree." Numerous others would be gone as well. Sure, it'd be annoying to people who just like to post "Yes," "Sad but necessary," etc. and probably force people to elaborate a bit more, but where is the harm in that? I mean, you could even make it thirty (or fifty!) characters. That may seem like a lot, but a phrase like "Sad but necessary. o/ The Victorious Alliances!" is 47 characters (including spaces). Seems like making a minimum requirement to posts (which I know can be done) could solve some problems.

I like that idea, but I doubt it'll ever happen seeing as the majority of posters on here arn't worried about content..

I don't have the feeling that "Place Holding" is that big annoyance. Either it's done with a constructive purpose - and it shouldn't be banned IMHO as we don't have the right to limit the way others choose to express meaningful thoughts - or it's done with the silly but almost harmless purpose of scoring a "first", that is not anyway worse than hails and CN memes.

A community isn't only hard rules, it's culture. If so many people are annoyed by "firsts" why don't they just start making fun and/or frowning upon them? If "place holding" was a good way to have many people lose a bit of their respect for you, you wouldn't do it (unless you're an unaware noob that would do it anyway, even if it was against the rules).

tl;dr: OP raises a valid point but suggests using the wrong tool (the Rules). The community's disapproval would IMO work better.

It's a good idea.... in theory. What will happen is you get people posting even more dribble to satisfy their "o/ Polaris" or "Sad, but neccesary" posts. Back to the topic.


This has been probably said before in this thread, but why not disallow "place holding" in the RP sections of the forums. Areas like the water cooler & the boiler room, people have a use for place holding. Setting a required amount of characters can backfire because then all you need to do is place so many spaces and then you got your "o/" posts.

Warnings should be handed out for "First!" posts, as well as "place holder" posts. Both are needless spam.

I'm fairly sure IPB doesn't come with this feature.



Not sure if IPB counts those, but it it does, having just o\ and a bunch of spaces to slip by would/should be prosecuted as spam.

Placeholding is a fair annoyance...but a solution, know not, I.

We do not need to combat this problem by instituting a minimum limit of some arbitrary number of characters. I, for one, enjoy many of Electron Sponge's one-two word posts. In fact, many users add to the discussion and make very sharp points with very few characters.

But the vast majority don't.

annoying for some? yes

added stress on the servers? maybe

should be warnable? no, maybe the most important information will show up in that edit.

enforceable? not easily,

Why not put the information in there, rather than a placeholder? You do realize that clicking the post number will copy the link so others may go directly do it if you repost it, yes?