Well,

This has been a suggestion that has been thrown around quite a few times in other threads but never formally suggested. The suggestion is to make more (or all) wonders indestructible.

The wording on the screens for National Wonders uses the wording "developed" when you make a wonder. It does not make sense that you can suddenly "un-develop" them. What happens, do the scientists get exiled and shot and the technology erased somehow?

Anyways, the suggestion is to simply make wonders more permanent. If you look at things that are on comparable levels in the real world there are a lot of wonders still around from a LONG time ago-
The Great Wall of China, Pyramids, random temples in South America, all the Cathedrals in Europe, etc. Those have been around a LONG time. Would it be possible to physically destroy them? Yes, but the point is that they have been around a long time and have survived many wars and situations which could destroy them.

Things like the Internet are also things which will *never* be destroyed.

Regardless, everyone knows this suggestion and what it is so debate away. I am fully in support of it (obviously).


edit --

More drawn out arguments in favor have been made throughout the thread. It is a suggestion that will only better gameplay.

Also, removing the upkeep cost for wonders is part of this suggestion for two reason-
1) upkeep cost for a nation which buys wonders is TRIVIAL and not a factor at all (5k per day for 20 wonders is still only 100k, not even 1/3 a daily improvement bill)
2) the only times it becomes relevant is in situations where the player has much more pressing problems to deal with, meaning that it becomes a NPE for them and causes them to have much less desire to keep playing.

Nations sacrifice significant amounts of nation growth to invest in wonders. To hold them hostage in wars is abominable.

Make wonders permanent.

Granted, the upkeep for wonders is negligible, but how do you suggest contending with that once a nation has been reduced beyond the means of maintaining them? I understand this is already a minor issue for people with Manhattan Project, but extending it across an entire palate of wonders might make things more complicated without a source of aid. I'm all for this, though; granted, it may be out of selfishness.

I was tempted to suggest no upkeep cost for wonders as well, due to the fact that 5k a pop is trivial to most nations who can afford them, but decided to keep this purely to wonder permanence instead.

So what are these wonders made of? Everything does not last forever.. If it was not possible to delete wonders, then there should be damage done to them in war.

To fix the issue with losing wonders in wars would be to have wonders work similar to improvements. Every wonder you have purchased 'unlocked' a new wonder slot. Then if you destroy a wonder it is possible to buy another one to replace it instantly. It would still cost you a fortune in money to destroy your wonders in a war but at least you could buy them back quickly if you had the money to do so.

This would fix the issue.

Idea, widespread, and organization wonders probably shouldn't be destroyable. Some others as well. Going down the list:

Agriculture Development Program
Central Intelligence Agency
Disaster Relief Agency
Fallout Shelter System
Federal Aid Commission
Internet
Manhattan Project *already invulnerable*
Mining Industry Consortium
Movie Industry
Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI)
Universal Health Care

as a first quick list.

You forgot:

Social Security System
Stock Market

Both aren't tangible things.

This would fix the issue.

Do this, and everyone will be satisfied.

It has been suggested before, with huge feedback & support, but it never happened/

I support this as well.

I agree with this notion.

I agree with this man.

I'm all for indestructible wonders.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by Zeke in this previous post.

If I hadn't bought any wonders I would have 285M to spend on Infrastructure. I chose wonders over Infrastructure for the use of that money because they were more permanent. I would like to keep that a reality.

Actually...

Most all the Wonders could be destroyed. Social Security systems can go bankrupt or society decide they are no longer worth having. Ditto Universal Health Care.

The standard should be: is the Wonder an invention or is it a service? Inventions rarely are simply forgotten. Services can simply be stopped, in which case the Wonder is lost.

This is the reasoning I agree with. I hate to see defensive wonders destroyed because someone lost a war.

Make wonders permanent please.

Still needs more 'damage'

There is always deleting wonders to get out of bill lock, but who honestly has EVER needed to do this?

I support this.

I agree with this as well.

Yeah but then you could have people do things like wonder swapping...

I partially disagree with this. I mean normally wonder swapping is less likely to be profitable ( i can't imagine swapping the ISS for a NRL for example), but thing is people will be able to go from full economical wonders to full military wonders instantly with this, provided they have A LOT of cash.

So if this does get implemented it should NOT allow swapping military wonders with eco ones and vice-versa, otherwise looks reasonable

or easily destroyed.

Manhattan Project - Currently indestructible
Weapons Research Complex - New one...it represents more gradual improvements in military tech vs. MhP

Debatable ones:
Fallout Shelter System - These were made to design a nuclear holocaust...they should thus be very hard to destroy, even intentionally and are usually built on bedrock making them fairly resistant to natural disasters.

Or what about if you could destroy a wonder, leaving you with a wonder slot, but ONLY that same wonder would be allowed to be built again in that slot. Prevents any type of "wonder swapping", although I wouldn't be concerned with it, at the price wonders are.

(ie if surrender terms include destroying Nuke Silo, you destroy it but still have that slot, and whenever you want, after surrender terms are over, you can build it again, without having to wait, and without disrupting your monthly wonder clock.)

Then all you have to do is set the upkeep to scale with the amount of infra you have. So if you get ZI'ed they cost nothing to support.

I disagree with the original suggestion, wonders should be "destroyable" [except those who are immaterial research, like the Manhattan Project]. But, once a national wonder is decommissioned, it should be marked as "disabled" and should not be deleted. If you have enough cash, a nation should be able to re-enable the wonder without this counting against the 30days waiting time.

Basically I agree, the forced disbandment of wonders sets back nations back for many months and there is no way to ever catch this up again, which is bad for gameplay at all.

But, a far easier implementation would be to count from the day where wonders were implemented and give all nations the equal amount of wonder "slots", counting from that day forward/30. If you have the cash to fill them, fill them. If you are forced to disband them (lost war), disband them - but you can rebuild them any time if you are out of the peace terms and have enough cash. Would be 10lines of code.

A potential exploit of this particular suggestion would be a new nation being aided 25 million for the cheapest wonder and thus starting their wonder clock MUCH earlier than would be otherwise. Then they could save up all of their wonder slots until they were able to start filling them. When they got up to wonder size, they may have 3 or 4 wonder slots ready to go.


I really like the suggestion to "disable" the wonder, and when you had the money to buy it again, you could, and it wouldn't count towards your 30 day wait.

like the disabling option, not the indestructable option.

I'd support allowing someone to temporarily disable a wonder so they no longer receive it's benefits but don't pay immediate bills on it. However a potential exploit of this is to disable all military wonders and only enable them when you are in a war and need them, and the same with economic wonders before collections. To solve that problem, I propose allowing the disabling of wonders and not having to pay the bills temporarily. However, to re-enable the wonder, you'd have to pay a fee that would add up all the bills for that wonder they didn't pay plus 2% interest for every day the wonder was disabled, or to make that math easy: $5000*DaysDisabled*(1+(.02*DaysDisabled)) This would allow someone to not be forced with the burden of wonders upkeep costs if they were stuck in bill lock, but force them to pay back those bills plus interest when they wanted to re-enable their wonders.

In general though, I support the idea of making wonders indestructible, at least some if not all.

The interest is a good idea, and I think the right amount (less than 1.5 million even after 90 days, it may be even a bit too small - Increasing wonder upkeep in general might be a good idea)

I think also you forget that to "enable" the wonder again you should have to pay full price, or a high percentage of the original price. (to prevent wonder swapping)

I think that the solution to re-enabling wonders might be accomplished a bit more elegantly by having re-activation take a one month refresh time.

For instance, if you had disabled your pentagon, presumably (IC) that means that you decommissioned your super generals, shut down the systems, fired the janitorial staff etc... It would take time to get it back to being active again.

So say you get defeated in a war, and your conquerors demand that you "turn off" your military wonders. This guarantees that you couldn't turn them back on for a month. You wouldn't have to add a bunch of back-bills stuff, just a kind of "timer."

Potentially you could double the upkeep cost of a wonder for the duration of the month in which it was being turned back on or refreshed in order to reflect the financial investment that such a restoration would require.

EDIT: The number of wonders that you could "refresh" in a month might also be limited so that a nation couldn't transform from Losderdom to Awesome in 30 days.

I think you misunderstood the suggestion. What I meant was: Take the day wonders were added to the game. Lets say 01.01.2007 [I don't know the exact day, but this one is good as example]. Now give ALL nations [even newly started ones] 1 wonder slot per 30days from that day forward. Since the 01.06.2008 is only a few days in the past, this would be 18 Wonder Slots for all nations. If you have the cash, fill them. You can raze them any time if you are forced to, but also rebuild them any time if you have the cash. Why is that better than the current situation? Because it offers younger nations a chance to catch up in wonders to the older ones, if they manage their nations profitable enough to buy them. Right now, newly created nations can *never* catch up to the older ones, because they are simply 15 wonders 'behind' and have never a chance to equal out this disadvantage, no matter how good or skilled they are playing the game. And that is, by default, bad for gameplay. Even if someone would play the game THAT good that he can grow maybe 10k infra in 6month, he would still have *no chance* to compete with anyone of his size, since he lacks 10 wonders which would basically make his nation absolutely unprofitable.

And, to be honest I do not see any disadvantage of allowing those who grow faster, to develop wonders faster (if they can afford them of course), they delay infragrowth for it, so you would always need to think very wisely what next step is more important: another wonder or another pack of infra. Right now, that decision is pretty simple: Every 30days a wonder. As said quite often before: CN has too many "choices" where the user can almost *never* do anything wrong, since there is only ONE right action. This leads to a large percentage of players growing almost exactly equal, one nation almost being a copy of the next. And thats boring. Basing wonders on slots, not on a 30days circle, would be incredible benefitial for the game.

Your "exploit" makes no sense at all btw, if a new nation gets aided 25M for the cheapest wonder, it would be *BY FAR* more benefitial to buy infra instead. Aiding a new nation 25M just to "start its wonder clock earlier" is also possible today, but no one does it because it simply makes absolutely no sense, that is never profitable at all.

If they spent $25 mil on FAC or MI rather than investing in infra, they should just delete their nation turn off their computer and carefully unplug their network card then give it away so they don't continue to act stupidly.

I did misunderstand the suggestion. I thought you were referring to the first wonder that nation bought.

And (although I don't often disagree with you) I disagree with your idea. One issue I see off the bat is all of those nations who are at the point where they wait for the 30 days to be up rather than to have enough money (most wonder capable nations) are going to buy up until they get all the wonders, and one reason admin put in the 30 days was to prevent people from getting to the end of the line and having nothing else to look forward to. I know if it were implemented I personally would put a wonder before infra (as would most people who have reasonably expensive infra costs).

thats the funny thing, there are 28 wonders in the game, but if 01.01.2007 is the correct day when wonders were implemented, all nations had only 18wonder slots. So, they had still 10months "to look forward to".

And if your decision would be to "only" buy wonders asap, fine for you, unfortunately that would not be the most clever idea from the efficiency point of view . As simple example: You can of course decide to tay at 4999infra (where you make around 3-4M profit per day) and only buy wonders from that point on. But you would need 10days at least to save up for one of the cheaper wonders, 20days for one of the medium wonders and more than 30 for one of the more expensive ones. Had you grown to 7999 first, where you make 7-8M profit, you could buy wonders twice as fast, but had to invest more cash in infra before. But after time X, that would be better than staying at 4999 and buying from there. Ideally a good balance between wonders and infra would be the most effiecient way, and it would be up to you to find it out.

The thing is, there are wonders that require you to invest quite heavily in infra before you can buy them, so not all of them can be bought instantly.

True enough. I was referring to my nation's situation, but I see what you mean. I'm still not a fan

Disabling a wonder fixes the problem stated by some, saying that it is unfair to have to decomm wonders and get set back 30 days. I think that's what should be done. Pay a certain amount to get the wonder back. Some wonders should be indestructible, but not all.

Yes, but what (DAC)Syzygy is suggesting not only addresses that issue, but it also makes it possible for new nations to catch up in growth to older nations as well. As it stands and as you advocate, small nations will never be able to buy the same number of wonders as a nation who started before them just because they played longer. The 30 day rule is quite arbitrary, if admin wants people to have to wait for certain wonders, he should put more requirements on them individually like he did with the newer ones.

and more infra dependant wonders should be used if this were to be in place.

While this does not entirely address the main topic of the thread directly, this idea would solve the problem addressed in the original post. Quoted for "Promoting Cybernations"ness.

there comes a point where, especially for wonders that lower infra cost/upkeep, the benifit of the woder per price-unit would outway the cost of investment in the same amount of infra though. in such situations it would only create a feed cycle to have no limit on wonder purchase.

There still is a limit, you can only get one every 30 days from when wonders were added to the game.

I agree with the premise that most wonders should not be destructible, only because it affects nations that lose wars and are forced to disband any of their military wonders too severely, IMHO. You could still push them to the point where they can't afford to maintain anything though. If there was a wonder that generated say $1 million cash/day, for a really inefficient cost, like $30-35 Million, that would allow people an option that would let them maintain their improvement/wonders, even if the rest of their infrastructure was destroyed. They would be losing a good wonder slot for the privilege though.

Here's a good point- my improvements cost more than 4x to maintain per day than what it costs me to maintain my 9 wonders.
Improvements: 210,000 Wonders: 45,000

The wonder upkeep is so insignificant that it barely touches upon my collection amount. In fact, to put it into perspective, the wonder upkeep (for all 9 mind you) costs me ~0.0031% of my daily income. There really is no reason to even have it unless the POINT is to force people to destroy them when faced with bill lock, which I find hard to imagine as forcing a nation to give up on all the many months of work it put into obtaining them just to prevent itself from deletion is despicable.

1 mil a day for only 35 mil? Gimme please.


Interesting concept but needs different numbers.

Syzygy wins. Split his stuff off, make it a new thread, and implement it. kthnxbai

How bout, When clicking delete this wonder it is disabled. From that point on you don't have to pay for it. Then if you want it to start back up you pay half the purchase cost of it.

Of course this disabled wonder would be able to be restored at any point (ie outside of the 30 day cycle)

The great wall of china can be destroyed at any time. The name decides that. Dont do it.

Meh, its unique to one area. If there were 'great' walls everywhere, it wouldnt be as special. Since lots of people have a lot of the same wonders here. they shouldnt be spared. Because really. I still dont understand why wonders and improvements dont get destroyed/get damage via war. >___>