Essentially i'm proposing that Tranks be weakened way down. Under the current system 50 tanks = 1 nuke. That's all fine and dandy but i'd take the nuke any day over 5,000 tanks much-less 50.

Also since the admin or mod staff has commented that raising Nuclear NS Value isn't an option I request
Tanks nation strength be destroyed and lowered to .5 for defending and .25 for attacking. I'd also like to see Infra and Tech values lowered. Essentially it would be nice to know nations aren't all military buildup.

So my question to you is......
Should 50 Tanks = Nuclear Weapon
Should 2 Aircrafts = Nuclear Weapon
Should 500 Soldiers = Nuclear Weapon

If you don't think it should then vote YES for changing it

Great Post TimLee

i voted yes.. cuz u like... told me so...
[16:43:31pm] <TimLee> http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=17430
[16:45:11pm] <youngceaser> yea so?
[16:45:41pm] <TimLee> support it NOW

Land Purchased * 2 + Tanks Deployed * .5 + Tanks Defending * .75 + Cruise Missiles * 1.5 + Nuclear Purchased * 200 + Technology Purchased * 3 + Infrastructure Purchased * 2 + Actual Military * .10 + (aircraft rating totals * 3) Would be a start IMHO.

I agree on the nuclear part however, they have no intent on raising values on lowering them.

I would go even lower than this.

Land Purchased * 1.5 + Tanks Deployed * .25 + Tanks Defending * .5 + Cruise Missiles * 1 + Nuclear Purchased * 250 + Technology Purchased * 5 + Infrastructure Purchased * 3 + Actual Military * .01 + (aircraft rating totals * 2)

No, I think it's good the way it is

Who knows? Maybe a CN nuke is a tactical nuke.

I guess the biggest question is: Should your NS change drastically based on how much military you have at the time. I can change almost 10k NS by getting rid of all my tanks and 80% soldiers. That doesnt mean that if I get into a war, that I am the same as a nation of the same NS, but with max mil. I buy soldiers/tanks and pummel them.

The one issue regarding nukes is that they are not used in 90% of all wars w/ nations who have nukes. Using a nuke has almost become a death sentence to the nation who sends it and are automatically labeled a rogue.

From my understanding, the main objection from the mod staff about raising the nuke quantifier in the NS calculations was NOT about the ratio of quantifiers, but rather about the overall inflation of NS. (I dont see the major problem with inflated NS numbers though)

If this is the case, why not just double the NS quantifier for nukes and shift all the others down by a factor of .9-.75. That should keep the average NS pretty static, but boost nuclear nations as they should be.

I like your ideas though TimLee. Fight the good fight!

-SW

The issue with raising nukes is that the ability to purchase nukes is largely limited by NS. So you get to a position where it's considerably harder to break into the top 5% and get nukes, because the nations above you have 20 nukes. At the proposed 250 NS per nuke, that's another 5k of NS you have to get.

Which is why lowering the NS of everything else is the only option.

This is why whatever the actual formula ends up for each component of the NS Formula, it should be based on the max possible for that nation and not what you actually have. NS is supposed to gauge military potential so it should include what a nation could easily add. Thus if a nation could field an army of 40,000 and yet was only maintaining ready forces of 10,000; it's NS would be based off the 40,000 and not the 10,000. It would greatly reduce the wide swings in NS possible simply based on military factors and whether you're at full military or not.

The biggest problem is that tanks and soldiers are way over-rated, and aircraft to a lesser extent.

I propose the following values.
1 Tank = .2 NS (I don't see a reason to distinguish between attacking and defending)
1 Soldier = .02 NS
1 Pt. Aircraft rating total = 2 NS

That way, a full level 9 (60 plane) airforce = 1080 NS
50,000 soldiers= 1,000 NS
5,000 tanks = 1,000 NS

Doing this would also make nukes a bit more exclusive, as right now the top 5% limit is really the top 10%, with the top 5-10% able to jump into the top 5% by maxing out soldiers and tanks, and then once they have bought 20 nukes decommissioning the soldiers and tanks to save on bills.

I like your numbers azaghul, until bubbler past him a few days ago Neo arcadia was actually the strongest nation in the game even though he's ranked like 19. When i calculate nation strength i assign land a value of 1.5, inf a value of 5 (3 base and the extra 2 from soldiers and tanks, keep in mind this number varies with trade setups etc...) and tech a value of 5, now i know this isn't that accurate and it doesn't take into account planes or nukes (i don't really care about them because any nation my level can max out these things fairly easily) but it's better than our current system where 50,000 soldiers that cost 2.00 each is worth the same amount of ns as 1,000 tech that costs me over 800k per lvl. Anyways sorry if this seems scatter brained i support this suggestions 100%.


-Veritas

Triple the NS value of tanks and airforce and use soldier effieciency as 1 point of efficiency = .04 would be better imho so

A full level 9 (60 plane) airforce = 3,240 NS
50,000 soldiers (with 5 barracks = 75k efficiency) = 3,000 NS
5,000 tanks = 3000 NS

And 1 nuke = 200 NS sounds good to me

The system needs changing regardless of what it goes to.

I would be careful about this if I were the OP.

Your previous suggestion was to raise Nuke NS, and the Mods were pissed and shot the idea down. So instead you want to lower the NS of bunch of other stuff.
It's sort of the same purpose.

They have reduced tech to devalue nation strength. I think another look at the system is due and as such I'm suggesting that things be reduced.

Remove the NS on tanks and soldiers totally. Both are easy to lose, and both are cheap so easy to buy.

EDIT: Btw, in terms of damage done to infa, 50 cruise missiles can do more, and have the same NS as nukes.

No. This will only make it nearly impossible for nations not currently in the top 5% to get there.

Also, many people and alliances have focused a ton of time and money into developing a ton of tech. Others into developing tech selling programs. The NS formula was already radically changed once. This alters CN strategy too much.

Why can't nuke NS be raised? I haven't seen the answer to that.

Admin said no essentially making this the only alternative.

I actually agree with this too. Because of the way wars are declared on CN, it's possible to decom your military to 25% soldiers, declare on someone half your size, then max military and jump about 10k NS.

This would not be a problem except that the intent (it seems) of the war system was not to allow this sort of action.

How many soldiers/tanks a nation has at any given time has almost no effect on its NS. The only effects I can think of that do are the population and soldier efficiency modifier number. More citizens => more soldiers/tanks, and obviously the soldier efficiency effects strength.

edit: your ACTUAL strength in a fight has so much more to do with tech/infrastructure than military. If "nation strength" is to adequately reflect your fighting abilities, then tanks/soldiers should not have anywhere near as much effect as they currently do.

I can't believe people think the NS calculations is as accurate as possible ;/

Right now money acts as an "secret" power booster. If you have enough money you can declare war on someone with just a minimum of soldiers then decom all your civil improvements in favor for war related once. When you max out your military too you are suddenly 4+ times stronger than your enemy. So money should count or atleast make it so that it takes time to prepare your nation for war. Maybe we could have a 24 hour delay on newly bought war supplies or something?

In any case the only downside right now with only having 20% soldiers in your nation at any time is that it increase the probability for you being anarchied if you are being jumped before and after update. But even anarchy have no effect on you if you have enough money laying around. You can just stop paying bills and collecting taxes until the war expires and everything returns to normal.

Do you have a link for this? I seem to recall in the nuke NS thread that I liked the calculation on nukes where the first one = 20, the second = 40, etc... but I wasn't sure what sort of equation to use. I don't want to nerf the NS of other items in the game. I did that with tech a few months ago and the resulting angry PMs and emails were not fun.

i think everything is fine. maybe raise the amount nukes give you tho.

I sent you a reply in your PM to what lead me to that assumption. It wouldn't let me forward but I believe from reading that you will see why I thought you wouldn't change nukes.

People always complain about change regardless of whether it's good or bad. In hindsight I think almost everyone would agree that the tech/infra ratio change was a good change, but at the time, most were opposed.

People might initially complain if tanks/soldiers lose a lot of their NS bonus, but after time, I am sure that almost everyone would agree that it was a necessary change. Because tanks and soldiers really do not contribute to what makes a nation strong. Population is more of a contributor than existing tanks/soldiers; having a large population with low military percent is MUCH more effective in having nation strength than a much smaller population and a maxed military.

People will complain no matter what you change in existing code. That's just human nature.

If you don't like angry PMs, just ban people who send them

I'm don't really know how to program equations into the game or anything, I just observe, but wouldn't the above equation be similar to the one used below?

Really to determine the equation would be simple the real question is how much do you want a full arsenal of 25 nukes to increase NS. currently 25 nukes gives you 1250 NS. Now given that nukes are impossible to get unless your in the top 5% or can afford 100million. So a high amount wouldn't be unreasonable so is 7000 NS for 20 nukes. and 15000 NS for 25 nukes due to the cost of buying a wonder should allow someone to increase their NS exponentially.

1-20
2-40
3-60
4-80
5-100
6-125
7-150
8-175
9-200
10-250
11-300
12-350
13-400
14-450
15-500
16-550
17-650
18-750
19-850
20-1000

Total is 7000

21-1200
22-1400
23-1600
24-1800
35-2000

total is 15000

I know it has no actual formula but actually coming up with something thats fair raises per nuke is difficult. Using a percentage will end up with alot of decimals and will end up with either a really low ending number or a really high number 25% leaves you with 6000 for 25 while 50% leaves you with 43000.

While we're at it, does anyone know why spies are not worth any NS? Spies can do some pretty harmful stuff (DEFCON change, destroying nukes) and a nation without them would be at a disadvantage versus a nation that does have them.

Spy count is supposed to be secret.

there are always complainers, but in the end imho the overwhelming majority of the Cyberverse argees that the Tech NS reduction was a good step to a more accurate strength-display.

Overall I agree with the discussion here, Tanks/Soldiers have *way* too much impact compared to the really hurting weapons. As formula for increasing nuke-NS you could use one similar to the Nuclear Cost/Upkeep formula.

NS = 250+(#ofNukes*25)
1 275
2 300
3 325
4 350
5 375
6 400
7 425
8 450
9 475
10 500
11 525
12 550
13 575
14 600
15 625
16 650
17 675
18 700
19 725
20 750
21 775
22 800
23 825
24 850
25 875

With 20 nukes: 10250
With 25 nukes: 14375

very easily adjustable, KISS like increase of +25 per nuke.

If you want the values start lower, just decrease the base cost and increase the multiplicator.
For example: NS = 25+(#Nukes*50) leads to:
1 75
2 115
3 160
4 205
5 250
6 295
7 340
8 385
9 430
10 475
11 520
12 565
13 610
14 655
15 700
16 745
17 790
18 835
19 880
20 925
21 970
22 1015
23 1060
24 1105
25 1150

With 20nukes: 9,955 NS
With 25nukes: 15,255 NS

However, Scenario 1 is more realistic imho

If spies gave you more NS I suppose someone could find out how many spies you have if they have too much time on their hands. Then again, the same could probably be done by using the estimated spy odds figure (You'd get pretty close to the actual amount of spies).

Is it really that important? All I care about is the odds anyways.

Send them to me, I'll deal with them

A warning to all: Don't yell at admin

I agree with this suggestion. I think that how NS is factored between individual aspects of ones nation growth, and military ought to be reflective of how much damage they can wreak on the enemy nation.
50 tanks can do no where near the amount of damage to a nation that a Nuclear weapon can. As such they ought not have the same affect on ones NS.

Edit:

That said however I think that should this be implimented, non-military purchases should have a greater affect on ones NS. e.g. Land : Infra. ratio. and Infra: Tech Ratio

This may be a very unpopular idea, but what about making soldiers and tanks add nothing to your NS?

admin already said that's exactly the thing he doesn't wanna do.

And it's a bad idea anyway.

Which? The Idea or removing soldiers and tanks from NS.

removing soldiers and tanks from NS would ruin the NS system.... its fine how it is now, so lets just leave it

I'm guessing he doesn't want to lower any.

Tbh, tanks and infantry do give too much to your NS. Not to mention other assets (non military) don't give you as much in comparison . . .

An idea:



This way, 50 Teir 9 planes gets 1350 NS, 10K soldiers defending is 1500 NS, 2000 Tanks is 1000 NS. This would reduce the weight Soldiers/tanks has on your nation, while making Infra, Land, an tech more valuable, and adding Population count to the formula. Perhaps even Wonders and Improvements could count.

As said before:
Soldiers: 0.02
Tanks: 0.2
CMs: 10
Planes: Level*5
Land: 1.5
Infra: 3
Tech: 5
Nukes: sliding scale (nukes^2)*10 = 1=10, 2=40 ... 20 = 4,000, 25 = 6,250

this way we have in the end:
100,000 soldiers = 4,000 NS (the same that 20nukes have)
10,000 tanks = 4,000 NS (the same that 20nukes have)
50 CMs = 500 NS
60 Lvl9 Planes = 2,250 NS
20nukes = 4,000 NS, 25nukes = 6,250 NS

Benefits:
- the impact of the real "powerful" weaponry is counted more. even 100,000 soldiers or 10,000tanks can die on one day. That is just "cannonfodder", cheap to replace and ready to be wasted. It shoud not add almost 20% to your total NS like now.
- nations can not longer *push* themselves up the ladder, they infact need to grow up the ranks
- its *by far* more realistic, in fact the nation itself counts a lot more then, not the standing army which is blown up or can be replaced in 1 minute.

If your not a game mod for CN you need to be

And this is one of the reasons why the gramlins are awesome. Great suggestion syzygy

Looks like your plan went through as outlined, (DAC)Syzygy. Keep the good suggestions coming.

Good show, admin, this was definitely needed!

Syz's version went through verbatim

Quoted for irony?

In all seriousness, though, while I agree something had to be changed, I'm not entirely sure a drastic revision of all the military stuff was the way to go about it. Combined with the revision to tech a while back, this further leads to even greater likelihood of larger nations in wars being able to pick fights with even weaker nations and do even more damage, as stronger nations will have a much larger impact to their NS than weaker nations. I personally do not see this change ending particularly well.

Quoted for admin.

How will this make it EASIER for big nations to hit little ones? All you had to do pre-NS change was put yourself to minimum military and you could hit a nation over 3k infra less then you.

Now it is harder to hop around NS's, unless you dig selling infra to do so.

-not only this, all the "mobilization orders" when rumors go that sanction audits are in order are now gone. Alliances cannot just buy mass-military any more to get a few points more score to get a sanction.

- during war the NS does not hop around this much any more, depending on who just destroyed whos troops, so it is less likely that a nation you are at war with suddenly drops out of your spying range because it lost a lot of soldiers. This was quite boring and confusing, wont happen that lot any more right now.

- the pop-modifier resources does not bring that much of an NS advantage any more. Basically if 1 nation has 20% more pop then another just from modifiery, but the other nation has a lot more infra-upkeep lowering resources, both can make the same daily profit - but the first one could build 120,000soldiers the second one only 100,000soldiers. But after the efficiency modifiers from coal/oil both armies would have the same overall strength, why has nation 1 4k more NS?

That change is great for gameplay and in a few days everyone will have a far better overview where he stands.