[The Mod]

I recently read an interesting article on CNN, here, about what's wrong with "Black America".

Quote

As the mug shots of the alleged killers of NFL star Sean Taylor were shown on television, I kept wondering when we were going to see their parents step forward. I saw a couple of mothers, but their dads were missing in action.


Roland Martin credits two strong parents with raising him to do right by them.

Dads matter, and it's ridiculous for us to act as if all it takes is a loving mom.

Now, I don't know what it means not to have a father in your life. I'm not familiar with a mom being strung out on a crack binge. And when my parents were called to the school when there was a discipline problem, Mom and Dad didn't go off on the teacher or principal. In fact, I can still feel the pain of my elementary school principal's paddle being applied to my butt when I acted a fool. The principal could only pop me three times. Dad? He had no limit.

Bottom line: I can sit here today and celebrate them and enjoy a wonderful life because my parents were hell-bent on raising their children to do right by them, especially my dad.

We can spend all day talking about the ills afflicting urban America -- and there are plenty that are institutional -- but the decaying value of life in inner cities clearly can be traced to the exodus of fathers from the lives of so many young men. Excuses often are tossed about as to why black men leave their children (and their children's moms) to fend for themselves. But a lot of them are just sorry and refuse to accept the responsibility that comes with raising a child.

A lot of my colleagues will suggest it's too simplistic to assign such a high value to a dad being in the life of a child. But just take a visit to your local jail, juvenile hall or state prison. You likely will be confronted with a sea of black men -- strong, able-bodied, creative and restless -- who have spent or will spend years and years with a prison number identifying who they are.

According to the U.S. Justice Department, of all the black men in the U.S. between the ages of 25 and 29 in 2002, 10.4 percent were incarcerated. Hispanic and white men? Just 2.4 percent and 1.2 percent respectively. If a poll were done on how many grew up without fathers, I can guarantee you the numbers would be staggering.

But you see, when nearly 70 percent of black kids are born to unmarried parents, likely to a too-young mom, that puts tremendous pressure on grandmothers (and some grandfathers), sisters and brothers to take up the slack. But if the person who impregnated that woman were on the scene, not only helping to pay for the raising of the child but also serving as a strong influence, I just don't believe we would see such a chronic condition.

And the black men who have done their job are scared to death about what the tendency for black men to leave relationships means for their daughters.

The day before leaving for vacation, I got word that a good friend, Chicago attorney Reynaldo Glover, had died of pancreatic cancer.

He was 64.

In our last extensive conversation before he was diagnosed in July, Reynaldo pleaded with me to use my national media stage to be a voice to sound the alarm about what's happening to black men in America, because he wanted to know that his daughter would have a respectable man to marry one day. (I'm sure if she chose to marry someone who's not black, Reynaldo wouldn't mind, but he realized that as a nation, we mostly marry within our race.)

I promised Reynaldo that I would do all I can, because this has been an issue for me for many years. In fact, my mom gets angry because I'm always talking about my dad on television, radio and in my books. That's because when you see black men who have "made it," the accolades are plenty for their moms, and their dads are hardly mentioned. I just think it's critical to show daddy some love, too.

This is not an issue that black America can continue to sweep under the rug. I've heard countless folks talk about it, such as Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, who noted that his dad left his family when he was a toddler and didn't see much of him growing up. Even in the Republican CNN-YouTube debate, GOP candidate Mitt Romney said fathers are part of the answer to addressing crime in inner cities.

We shouldn't shame our young girls who get pregnant, but surely it shouldn't be seen as a blue-ribbon day. Teenage black girls and black boys should be focused on picking colleges, not the names of babies. When a young girl wants a baby christened, her pastor should be asking to meet with the father as well, even if the two don't get along. We also should be telling black women not to lie down with any fool. A moment of pleasure could lead you to a lifetime of raising that child. Alone.

A friend of mine suggested more black men need to mentor young black men. I agree. But that's a bandage. If we get black men to handle their business in the first place, no one else would have to stand in the gap.

Unless black America owns up to this problem -- and fast -- we are going to see another generation of young black men who are angry with their lot in life. And the result will be more discipline problems in school, which will lead to folks dropping out, and that is nothing but a one-way ticket to jail.

Black men, it's time to man up. Enough with the sperm donors. We need real men to stand up and accept their responsibility. The state of our boys is on us. And no one else.

Opinions?

I for one agree with what he is saying, things need to change before they get worse.

[Soviet Sindorin]

Sounds like a bad version of 'Boyz In Da Hood'

[Smallfrog]

The Mod, on Dec 12 2007, 06:26 PM, said:

I recently read an interesting article on CNN, here, about what's wrong with "Black America".



Opinions?

I for one agree with what he is saying, things need to change before they get worse.

basically, social development and economic aid in the form of Job creation is needed. If the Blacks are entering crime as a result of economic failings and social deprivations, prison sentances obviously don't help. Those are the problems that need to be dealt with.

I also feel that Prison is overused in America. I once saw a stat which said that there where 100 thousand more Americans in jail on drug offenses than there are for all offenses in the EU. And the EU has 100 million more citizens.

[The Mod]

Smallfrog, on Dec 12 2007, 12:31 PM, said:

basically, social development and economic aid in the form of Job creation is needed. If the Blacks are entering crime as a result of economic failings and social deprivations, prison sentances obviously don't help. Those are the problems that need to be dealt with.

I also feel that Prison is overused in America. I once saw a stat which said that there where 100 thousand more Americans in jail on drug offenses than there are for all offenses in the EU. And the EU has 100 million more citizens.

So you'd rather not send them to prison for breaking the law? Breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter if your white, black, purple, or green. I think we need not to focus on the prison aspect, but more of what the article is saying: having a father figure around to prevent the repeat cycle that is running rampant in society.

[Bakunin's Dream]

Interesting take, but I think he gets it wrong here:

Quote

We can spend all day talking about the ills afflicting urban America -- and there are plenty that are institutional -- but the decaying value of life in inner cities clearly can be traced to the exodus of fathers from the lives of so many young men. Excuses often are tossed about as to why black men leave their children (and their children's moms) to fend for themselves. But a lot of them are just sorry and refuse to accept the responsibility that comes with raising a child.

The tendency of black children living in lower-class conditions to grow up without fathers around is itself an institutional problem that can (in principle) be traced to socioeconomic and cultural causes. Any social fact disproportionately affecting a given segment of the population (in this case poor black men tending not to be around to raise their children as often as the average father) will ultimately have a cause that is rooted in the ambient material conditions of their existence. For instance, the tendency of young black males to become incarcerated is likely a contributing factor to their absence from family life, and that itself is a product of institutional and socioeconomic factors causing them to engage in mean-reducing behavior like committing crimes. I'm sure the decreased overall availability and use of contraceptives among black Americans, which leads to more unwanted pregnancies and therefore a higher proportion of fathers unable or unwilling to raise a child, plays a significant role too. Even if they are "just sorry and refuse to accept the responsibility that comes with raising a child," that is not a tendency that exists in a vacuum, but rather one which is created by the relevant material causes. In short, the author is utilizing an explanatory framework that just pushes back the question instead of answering it, and his thought process needs to be turned on its head in order to arrive at the real reasons for the phenomenon.

This post has been edited by Bakunin's Dream: 12 December 2007 - 12:42 PM

[SoxNation]

www.stopthedrugwar.org

that would help, first of all it would take drug dealing out of the ghetto's, it would no longer be a way to "make it" instead, sports and education would be the way to make it and get out of the ghetto, it's too easy for these kids to get caught up in the drug game, trying to drag themselves out, when it just drags them down further..


yes father figures would be huge, but it's often a matter of who comes first, the chicken or the egg? does not having a dad make a kid bad and then run out on his kids? how do you end this cycle?

Education and good jobs really are the way, and ending the drug war, the drug war is destroying the inner cities..

[Soviet Sindorin]

Education will never work. The black ghetto culture sees education as becoming a "Whitey". People are beaten for trying to get ahead via college. You'd be left with Sports or the Military.

[Soviet Sindorin]

The Mod, on Dec 12 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

So you'd rather not send them to prison for breaking the law? Breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter if your white, black, purple, or green. I think we need not to focus on the prison aspect, but more of what the article is saying: having a father figure around to prevent the repeat cycle that is running rampant in society.

In some cases, yea, it is the law. But alot of people get off due to social status and profiles. Celebrities, and Singers are routinely charged with drug crimes and get off easier due to the money they make and their status in hollywood.

[SoxNation]

Soviet Sindorin, on Dec 12 2007, 01:42 PM, said:

Education will never work. The black ghetto culture sees education as becoming a "Whitey". People are beaten for trying to get ahead via college. You'd be left with Sports or the Military.

that culture is precisely what needs to be changed, and as i said if they didn't have a quit way to make a buck at 10 or 12, selling on the streets, they might actually go to school and we can change that culture.

[Elyat]

It's a real problem, and a self-perpetuating one. 31% of black men in my state are felons (as of 2000). I think the problems are so numerous and so institutionalised both by government and cultural figures that it's going to take decades of awareness programmes before people even realise anything is wrong. When you have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton blaming it on the white man, Fifty Cent promoting drug use, crime, objectification of women, etc., "liberals" institutionalising the inferiority of African-Americans via Affirmative Action, and ongoing economic decay that takes away jobs from the poor and resources from the working/middle class it's hardly a wonder that things aren't going well in certain sectors of society.

[Varses]

Soviet Sindorin, on Dec 12 2007, 01:42 PM, said:

Education will never work. The black ghetto culture sees education as becoming a "Whitey". People are beaten for trying to get ahead via college. You'd be left with Sports or the Military.

I agree completely. I have a friend who is black (I'm white) and he was constantly harassed throughout high school for 'acting white'. By the way, 'acting white' means caring about your grades and actually trying to get something out of school. I'm getting tired of hearing all this stuff about the 'white man keeping the black man down' when the majority of black people choose not to take advantage of the second most influential factor of social class (following what class you were born into). And I emphasize 'choose'.

[josiptito]

Soviet Sindorin, on Dec 12 2007, 06:42 PM, said:

Education will never work. The black ghetto culture sees education as becoming a "Whitey". People are beaten for trying to get ahead via college. You'd be left with Sports or the Military.

That honestly sounds like propaganda like this:

Example

Education levels in inner cities suck. A public school in Manhattan is most superior to one in Crenshaw Boulevard- public schooling at least. True, the facilities are good- like gyms, library, PCs, A/C classrooms etc- the quality of teachers are attrocious. Except for very rare cases. And private schooling is beyond the financial reach of most inner city folk. And demographically, most Blacks happen to be in the inner cities. So much for "free market" economics....that's a reality, nothing like "Blacks are more prone to beat up Whiey like boys" or somesuch.

Schools in inner cities do a piss ant poor job in imparting a good value system & overall development of a student. And to make things more complex, most parents in inner cities work double time, and 2x working. This I guess is "US culture" which is fine, but schools should play the role. Most of them, I'm afraid to say, are below quality- esp. for the world's richest country. Teachers of that quality you see in most inner city schools should be sent to gulags for utter incompetence.

And most youths perhaps have a hostile view on education because most schools where Black folk are concentrated- esp. inner cities- have not "made the grade" for a semi decent college selection on scholarship. And many get disillusioned and take up crime. Even if there's someone in suburbia, they would know someone close to them who suffered because of this. That would sort of incubate a hostile attitude towards the institution. Most of the inner cities have just about poverty line income levels, considering costs of living in the US.

And getting decent college level scores means (on a percentile level- which most use in US)- having a good high school education, except in rare cases of exceptionally bright students. This is something which is denied to them.....most for sure, not saying all. I knew Black people in Princeton University- not just 1 or 2- several, Yale too. But on a agregate scale, inner cities (where Blacks lay concentrated) have an ultra substandard quality of education.

This post has been edited by josiptito: 12 December 2007 - 01:06 PM

[Varses]

josiptito, on Dec 12 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

That honestly sounds like propaganda like this:

Example

Education levels in inner cities suck. A public school in Manhattan is most superior to one in Crenshaw Boulevard- public schooling at least. True, the facilities are good- like gyms, library, PCs, A/C classrooms etc- the quality of teachers are attrocious. Except for very rare cases. And private schooling is beyond the financial reach of most inner city folk. And demographically, most Blacks happen to be in the inner cities. So much for "free market" economics....that's a reality, nothing like "Blacks are more prone to beat up Whiey like boys" or somesuch.

The quality of teachers is atrocious because of the horrible environment they're put in (kids beyond apathetic). Likewise, the environment is horrible because there aren't good teachers. It's a downward spiral and someone needs to break it.

[Smallfrog]

The Mod, on Dec 12 2007, 06:35 PM, said:

So you'd rather not send them to prison for breaking the law? Breaking the law is breaking the law, no matter if your white, black, purple, or green. I think we need not to focus on the prison aspect, but more of what the article is saying: having a father figure around to prevent the repeat cycle that is running rampant in society.

Yes, i do feel that. You send someone to Prison for a minor offense, they get taught hard crime and drugs while there in there. It also means they lose there job if they have one, so when they come out they have no money, work, so end up back in crime.

I prefer community service punishments for small offenses.

[Elyat]

Varses, on Dec 12 2007, 02:01 PM, said:

The quality of teachers is atrocious because of the horrible environment they're put in (kids beyond apathetic). Likewise, the environment is horrible because there aren't good teachers. It's a downward spiral and someone needs to break it.

The only incentive would be to raise pay for exemplary teachers in low-income areas. As it is, though, teachers are paid horribly and funding is generally distributed proportionally relative to an area's tax revenue. High-income areas get better funding and low-income areas get worse funding, and when they perform poorly they lose even more funding (that's how it works in Florida, anyway). It's absolutely ridiculous.

[Varses]

Doitzel, on Dec 12 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

The only incentive would be to raise pay for exemplary teachers in low-income areas. As it is, though, teachers are paid horribly and funding is generally distributed proportionally relative to an area's tax revenue. High-income areas get better funding and low-income areas get worse funding, and when they perform poorly they lose even more funding (that's how it works in Florida, anyway). It's absolutely ridiculous.

It works similarly in Michigan as well. However, poorer school districts get more funding from the state while richer districts get less. Ideally it should at least bring the disparities closer together.

[josiptito]

Quote

The quality of teachers is atrocious because of the horrible environment they're put in (kids beyond apathetic). Likewise, the environment is horrible because there aren't good teachers. It's a downward spiral and someone needs to break it.

I don't know whether this will work in US but at least in my experience, nationalization of education yields pretty good results, wherever it has been tried out. At least as far as HS & basic college (UG) education went, a public school in say- Dzhambul was as good & uniform as the one in Moscow or Talinn. And it was free. Even in Non Soviet Europe, say- SFR Yugoslav- there was no diff between school & UG college in Western Hezegovina or Belgrade.

A benefit of nationalized education is that good quality teachers are apportioned & rationed according to areas of urgent need, rather than be lured by prebuilt bunglaws or a 6 digit figure in an ICSC school...kids are there to make mistakes, obviously. Even in physical development, like martial arts. Which is why people still go to dojos instead of DIY DVDs. A white belt is there to make mistakes. It's the black belt's DUTY to show him the error of his ways & correct him. Same w/ teachers.

If they are unable to do this, they don't deserve to teach. Whoever gave them approval stamps should be sent to a gulag. If the US had the living conditions like say- Liberia, one can perhaps understand, but the US educ. system has more than enough $$$ in its treasury to guarantee quality, world class education- for 1/100th the price of the war in Iraq.

Either the teacher's credential approval selection committee is utterly incompetent, or teachers- as national resources- are misappropriated demographically. Usually, combination of both.

[SoxNation]

Doitzel, on Dec 12 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

The only incentive would be to raise pay for exemplary teachers in low-income areas. As it is, though, teachers are paid horribly and funding is generally distributed proportionally relative to an area's tax revenue. High-income areas get better funding and low-income areas get worse funding, and when they perform poorly they lose even more funding (that's how it works in Florida, anyway). It's absolutely ridiculous.

i don't always buy the more money idea.. i can work, but paying a crappy teacher more isn't going to further education.

1. get rid of teacher tenure... a teacher that can't lose their job except for gross negligence has no incentive to teach well. no job should be secure for life, if you aren't cutting it, you need to be fired.

2. restructuring of where money goes, i know at least in Maine, some places where teachers aren't paid much and they can't afford good school, the superintendent's are being paid well over 100,000, if your school isn't making the grade, move money from administration into actual areas that help students, supplies/teachers, etc...

[SoxNation]

josiptito, on Dec 12 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

I don't know whether this will work in US but at least in my experience, nationalization of education yields pretty good results, wherever it has been tried out. At least as far as HS & basic college (UG) education went, a public school in say- Dzhambul was as good & uniform as the one in Moscow or Talinn. And it was free. Even in Non Soviet Europe, say- SFR Yugoslav- there was no diff between school & UG college in Western Hezegovina or Belgrade.

A benefit of nationalized education is that good quality teachers are apportioned & rationed according to areas of urgent need, rather than be lured by prebuilt bunglaws or a 6 digit figure in an ICSC school...kids are there to make mistakes, obviously. Even in physical development, like martial arts. Which is why people still go to dojos instead of DIY DVDs. A white belt is there to make mistakes. It's the black belt's DUTY to show him the error of his ways & correct him. Same w/ teachers.

If they are unable to do this, they don't deserve to teach. Whoever gave them approval stamps should be sent to a gulag. If the US had the living conditions like say- Liberia, one can perhaps understand, but the US educ. system has more than enough $$$ in its treasury to guarantee quality, world class education- for 1/100th the price of the war in Iraq.

Either the teacher's credential approval selection committee is utterly incompetent, or teachers- as national resources- are misappropriated demographically. Usually, combination of both.

well for one thing, when you speak of apportioning teachers, are you saying that if there are too many good teachers in California and they are needed in Alabama, teachers would be forced to move to alabama? How do you apportion teachers?


secondly education in the US is a state right issue, it was not given to the U.S. Government to handle, therefore each state runs it, we do have national standards, but how to achieve those is up to the states...

[josiptito]

Quote

The only incentive would be to raise pay for exemplary teachers in low-income areas. As it is, though, teachers are paid horribly and funding is generally distributed proportionally relative to an area's tax revenue. High-income areas get better funding and low-income areas get worse funding, and when they perform poorly they lose even more funding (that's how it works in Florida, anyway). It's absolutely ridiculous.

My HS teacher had to save up for MONTHS to get us a good imported English lang. text from the UK. And salaries & living standards compared to income were much more severe in South Asia in 70s than Florida teachers. But the selection committee was good & educational resources like teachers were rationed. And was appropriated on a per need basis. And since we had price floors & ceilings, the diff. in incomes for a teacher wasn't too diff from that of a commercial bank manager. So ppl who chose the teaching field did so because it was their passion, rather than out of a career dead end.

MANY- certainly alarming levels- of teachers I talked to in Crenshaw felt that way. Most (Not saying all but most) "Exemplary teachers" in US system will find it lot more profitable to teach in a IB baccalaurate private school or a privately funded International school. When everything is weighed in terms of "assets & liabilities" these things tend to happen....

This post has been edited by josiptito: 12 December 2007 - 01:26 PM