Stalemate

[Johnny Apocalypse]

Hello, I don't make many threads here but I figure I might as well start now.

As many of you know there has been increasing stagnation on this planet. Wars are very hard to come by, the only wars we see these days are tech raids. Not very exciting for those of us who either; don't like raiding or are too strong to find raid targets. The last large scale war we saw was the Bi-Polar conflict almost a year ago now. Sure we've had the SF-NSO war but that was quite uneventful because nobody wanted to escalate.

The main issue we have today is this perpetual stalemate plaguing us and starving us of any action. Both sides are too afraid to make any bold moves or decisions for fear that the opposing side will crush them and impose heavy reps making it impossible to grow back up. So what we have is a case of both sides thinking the exact same thing; they will not make a move until the opponent does because it is too risky for them to do so.

This is partially down to the slow rebuilding time making any gamble extremely risky. So as a result we have leaders clinging to their infrastructure instead of waging war to dominate the planet/their little corner of the world. In other words we have realized that war is extremely unprofitable due to the risks that come with it. Which wouldn't be a problem if there were other things we could do as leaders to entertain ourselves in peacetime, however there are not. There are very limited methods to keeping communities alive, and if there is nothing happening on the planet, sometimes leaders just resign never to return. We're noticing this problem more and more these days yet we have no solution.

However we could change that.

As some of you know there is some controversy currently about NEW raiding protected nations still on residing the AA of the disbanded alliance Dark Fist. Currently there are negotiations taking place to ease this situation and resolve it as quickly and cleanly as possible.

Stop it.

You could very easily turn this situation into a rather delicious cluster$%&@ with regards to the treaty web(another reason for the stagnation in this game, it's gotten to the point where every alliance is effectively tied to one another) It could cause all kinds of situations to arise if you play your cards right. I am of the opinion that this needs to happen, regardless of the consequences. I believe if this did morph into something on a larger scale it would be highly cathartic for us. We've been waiting for so long to get our war face on; to vaporize the cities of another nation and to have something which makes it worth being leaders.

I am aware that I could be getting ahead of myself, that this situation could just result in a small localized war. Either way it would open a door for alternate fates for us all. But can you blame me for getting ahead of myself? I'm sure there are quite a few people doing the same. We're desperate for something to happen, I no longer care about who would win or lose I just want a reason to keep my nation alive. I want leaders worldwide to start doing dirty deeds and pissing all the wrong people off. I want to see the propaganda. I want to destroy and to be destroyed.

So please, I implore you; turn this into something violent and scandalous. Something to bust us out of this god-awful stalemate.

Or we'll go extinct sooner rather than later.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Dochartaigh]

well if the victor would cease the stupid reps, we may see more wars. but it appears that whoever the victor is wants to impose harsh reps so that the next war would be a long way coming or simply be a curbstomp with the victor winning until those on the victor's side decide they want to switch sides.

until that happens, rebuilding will take a long time and diplomacy would be strived for. so if you want more wars, end the reps.

[Omniscient1]

Yes, I have to say this would be a fun war. Please don't back down NEW and TPE.

[TheyCallMeJeezy]

Pretty please?

[supercoolyellow]

Pls Pls Pls happen

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292721593' post='2543351']
well if the victor would cease the stupid reps, we may see more wars. but it appears that whoever the victor is wants to impose harsh reps so that the next war would be a long way coming or simply be a curbstomp with the victor winning until those on the victor's side decide they want to switch sides.

until that happens, rebuilding will take a long time and diplomacy would be strived for. so if you want more wars, end the reps.
[/quote]

IRON is still paying reps from bi-polar. 'course they started late thanks to Gre, and then certain alliances wanted all their reps funneled to select nations limiting slots, but still, that's a hella long time for reps. Same goes for NPO's Karma reps, it took forever just to clear reps, and thanks to the restrictions on who could pay the reps, their ability to rebuild was significantly reduced.

While there is a growing number of Alliances that are forgoing reps or even approaching white peace in their war policies, any great war will run up against those AAs that still want to win the lottery.

[Kim Jaym Il]

This particular situation if allowed to play out would probably be one of the most unpredictable wars we've had in a long time, if you don't count the bipolar roller coaster.

When was the last time we had a war that wasn't based on predetermined sides, but instead was the result of an unexpected fissure in the treaty web?

[Locke]

Two issues I take with this:
1) I don't think it's even so much fear of defeat and reps as fear of the ordinary consequences of war. People build up their nations to use them when it counts (hopefully, at least), and so alliances aren't keen on throwing away a potential advantage in a future fight for something less important immediately.
2) The problem with this incident in particular, or any single incident, is that it takes more than just the immediately involved parties to take a reckless stance. For a full-on war to occur, for it to drag in treaty partners, it needs the cooperation of an awful lot of people to get something to happen. Unless all parties involved want a war, it's not going to happen.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1292721593' post='2543351']
well if the victor would cease the stupid reps, we may see more wars. but it appears that whoever the victor is wants to impose harsh reps so that the next war would be a long way coming or simply be a curbstomp with the victor winning until those on the victor's side decide they want to switch sides.

until that happens, rebuilding will take a long time and diplomacy would be strived for. so if you want more wars, end the reps.
[/quote]
Since when can a victor FORCE another alliance to pay reps? No one can force reps on anyone. Reps and the alliances that accept them are what created this problem. Stop blaming the victors for taking what some cowards agreed to.

[Liberated Christian]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292726617' post='2543468']
Since when can a victor FORCE another alliance to pay reps? No one can force reps on anyone. Reps and the alliances that accept them are what created this problem. Stop blaming the victors for taking what some cowards agreed to.
[/quote]
The thing is, if reps are being imposed on an alliance, than they just lost a war. And that means they are weaker than the victors, and will get killed if they don't accept the reps.

[rabonnobar]

I fully agree, OP.

[LegendoftheSkies]

I agree.

Diplomacy must die.

[xoindotnler]

Will the "other side" please stand up.

[Finnish Commie]

I am sorry but we are going to exhaust all venues of diplomacy before doing anything... fun. Keep your fingers crossed that NEW remains on the level of reasonable they have been on this far
Also why do you always forget INT? We are in it as much TPE is god dangit!

[conistonslim]

I joined CN in March/09, just before the Karma war. NPO had 23m NS with IRON right behind them. Since then I have 53k casulaties of war with my nation. I wasn't assigned any targets in Bi-polar and went looking for and found a couple CSN targets, only to have peace declared two days later. You have no idea how disappointed I was when nothing came from the Kronos and \m/ incidents with the STA. PLEASE, PLEASE lets have a semi even global war sometime soon.

[King MyLife]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR! needs to break out soon before this game get played out..

[Kevanovia]

While I appreciate the time you put into creating this thread, I disagree. I think Bob is getting more interesting, people just need to take their blinders off. As a wise penguin once said, "Bob is what you make it".

[White Chocolate]

[quote name='Kevanovia' timestamp='1292741641' post='2544061']
While I appreciate the time you put into creating this thread, I disagree. I think Bob is getting more interesting, people just need to take their blinders off. As a wise penguin once said, "Bob is what you make it".
[/quote]

Things are getting way more interesting, I agree. I personally think the seemingly long period of no large war is a part of the process of change. People are just unsure, so alliance leaders are more likely to work for peace because they don't want to end up on the wrong "end" of a war they are not absolutely sure can be won. It's a race to see how long common sense can prevail over that nasty war maker - boredom.

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1292721118' post='2543337']
I no longer care about who would win or lose I just want a reason to keep my nation alive.
[/quote]

Welcome to the first half of becoming truly free, friend

[lebubu]

War isn't as fun as people make it out to be.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1292779403' post='2544541']
War isn't as fun as people make it out to be.
[/quote]
It's not the actual war that people crave, it's the change in the power structure they hope happens as a result of a war.

[lebubu]

Guess Johnny is a masochist, then.

[Schad]

A large part of the issue that we have had is the worrying tendency of alliance leaders to make sensible decisions. Now, sensible decisions in moderation are good...if the world consisted solely of idiots doing idiotic things, it would get very dull very quickly for all save those whose diets consist largely of paste. But in recent months, we've had far too many sensible decisions; near wars averted by common sense and diplomacy, political directions determined with caution, idiocy trumped by rationality. The few spasms of idiocy that reached fruition were contained to relatively small corners of the web.

If everyone makes the rational decision every time, pretty much nothing happens; we need people to take huge and poorly-considered risks, screw up magnificently, and be catalysts for change. And for that reason, while I can't agree with anything that NEW has done, I have to applaud the fact that it appears that they have the rare courage to do something blitheringly silly and stick to it.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1292785223' post='2544668']
Guess Johnny is a masochist, then.
[/quote]

I've been here nearly 4 years. There's no other explanation.

[quote name='Schad' timestamp='1292787476' post='2544722']
A large part of the issue that we have had is the worrying tendency of alliance leaders to make sensible decisions. Now, sensible decisions in moderation are good...if the world consisted solely of idiots doing idiotic things, it would get very dull very quickly for all save those whose diets consist largely of paste. But in recent months, we've had far too many sensible decisions; near wars averted by common sense and diplomacy, political directions determined with caution, idiocy trumped by rationality. The few spasms of idiocy that reached fruition were contained to relatively small corners of the web.

If everyone makes the rational decision every time, pretty much nothing happens; we need people to take huge and poorly-considered risks, screw up magnificently, and be catalysts for change. And for that reason, while I can't agree with anything that NEW has done, I have to applaud the fact that it appears that they have the rare courage to do something blitheringly silly and stick to it.
[/quote]

Exactly. Nothing fun ever came from sensible decisions or actions. Now I'm sure it is fun(or at least a little bit interesting) for the govt. officials who are actually involved in back channel discussions to end potential conflicts. This is not the case for those of us who just get to sit and watch. How likely is it that the average member of an alliance genuinely thinks this: "Wonderful, another potential conflict has been resolved peacefully!"

Edited December 19, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Kowalski]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1292781449' post='2544577']
It's not the actual war that people crave, it's the change in the power structure they hope happens as a result of a war.
[/quote]
No, it's the war.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1292794107' post='2544854']
No, it's the war.
[/quote]

Yeah. Lebubu is right though; war isn't very interesting but it is better than hoarding for an eternity and constant war is also mundane. We need a happy middle ground.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Johnny Apocalypse