[King Penchuk]

Let's say the League of Nations stomped on Hitler in 1938 and effectively ended his regime. Imagine the past 69 years are hereby re-written.

What do you see happening? Factor in the fact that this does not stop Imperialistic Japan and the Iron Curtain never exists.

[thedestro]

Well France would be farm country now.
Japan possibly conquering native territories?
And no nukes! *gasp*

[Heyman]

USSR would still be a superpower.

[Daver]

You took out such a large chunk of history I could say the T-Rex would live again and it'd be just as likely as anything else that has/will be posted.

[King Penchuk]

I see the British Empire remaining intact, with the United States of America greatly weakened from the Depression. I do not see a Hyperpower ever forming where one country is dominate over the rest.

Also, because the war never occurred, various technologies are not invented (or improvements are made much slower). It's possible the internet would not exist until much later.

It will also affect the lives of many families. A lot of people would not exist from the Baby Boom that did not happen. I personally would probably be an entirely different person living in a different country.

[Drake14]

There would be a different WW.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Drake14, on Nov 26 2007, 11:03 PM, said:

There would be a different WW.

Maybe against the Soviets? As Churchill seemed to suggest they should have done...

[Leguaris]

King Penchuk, on Nov 26 2007, 11:40 PM, said:

Let's say the League of Nations stomped on Hitler in 1938 and effectively ended his regime. Imagine the past 69 years are hereby re-written.

What do you see happening? Factor in the fact that this does not stop Imperialistic Japan and the Iron Curtain never exists.

Even if we could come close to accurately predicting seventy years of alternate history, we still need a lot more information about your assumption. Every little detail matters.

How an in what way did the League of Nations stomp on Hitler? How and in what way did his regime come to an end? When did this "stomping" begin and end? What events led to the stomping? Which of those events was the key moment in leading to the stompage?

[Drake14]

Yeah, I think the USA would become a super power because WW2 didn't take us out of the depression. Maybe a WiC?

[John Fire]

WW2 would just have been against Stalin and the USSR.

The USSR would have taken the opportunity to expand into eastern Europe without a militarized Germany to stop his advance. The Axis powers (or their equivalent) would have consisted of Russia, China, and possibly Spain. The communist revolutionaries would likely have succeeded in China much earlier. The Fascists would have lost Spain to the socialists. France may or may not have succumbed to socialist/communist influenced without an enemy in Germany, but undoubtedly would be to weak to fight. The Allies would undoubtedly consist of Japan, England, Poland, the Scandinavian countries, and possibly at a later date the United States

Due to Japanese imperialistic demands Pearl Harbor would have never happened as Russia and China formed a more immediate threat. Italy would be neutral initially but would join the fight against communism. Germany and Manchuria would be the major theaters of the war.

The Holocaust would never have happened and a Gulag of Germans by the communists would be the single worst atrocity to date.

It is hard to say who would have gotten the bomb first, resentment of the Allies would possibly lead German scientists to work for the Russians. The most likely outcome is a Communist nuking of London and the subsequent destruction of Britain. However, the United States would not likely quit. A Russian/Chinese victory seems to be apparent due to the leftist leaning of continental Europe in many countries and the vast population and land resources by the Russian/Chinese side. In short Europe would fall eventually. However the Japanese/American alliance in the east would set the stage for a long drawn out war. A land invasion by the British from India and the Japanese/Americans through Manchuria would focus the remainder of the war in China. Naval supremacy in the war would belong to the Japanese/American alliance. A peace settlement would likely be reached after a 8-12 year war.

Europe would be then a warzone of competing communist/fascist/capitalist civil wars for the duration of an inevitable nuclear stalemate as the US would likely get the bomb a few years after the soviets. A cold war would ensue in which proxy wars would be occurring throughout Europe. Asia would remain relatively peaceful due to the MAD of the competing alliances. Oil interests would lead Russia to establish dominance in the Middle East and the US in South and Central America. There would be no peaceful end as both sides would be relatively powerful and WW3 would erupt as a full blown nuclear war, likely instigated by the US.

[Gustave5436]

USSR's military was crap until the 1940s, no way by then is the USSR going to single-handedly invade Europe. Without Hitler commanding Germany the European powers would probably all gather in an anti-Russian alliance and crush the USSR.

I doubt we would have landed on the moon in 1969 in this scenario. Firstly, the Nazis wouldn't advance missile technology as much as they did, US wouldn't capture those scientists, etc. Secondly, without the USSR's expansion into Europe and becoming a superpower there probably wouldn't be such a big space race. Without the innovations of war we would probably not be as technologically advanced as we are today. Without the destruction of war, European economies would probably be stronger than they were historically and thus less reliant on the US, US wouldn't be such an uncontested superpower. Not sure what would happen with the EU though, and without a strong USSR there wouldn't be any other strong powers capable of matching the US on their own.

This post has been edited by Gustave5436: 26 November 2007 - 11:18 PM

[Triyun]

Soviet Union would have collapsed earlier due to Stalin's mismanagment, and the lack of unity brought about by the Great Patriotic War (the IRL one). The British Empire would have started its collapse sometime in the 1950s or 60s, though it probably would have lost India at around the same time because Japan would still weaken its presence in Asia.

Japan probably would have been defeated earlier due with the US still entering against it. The Versailles Peace Accords endorsed Japanese Imperialism in Asia against China, so I doubt League of Nations would move the same way as they did against Germany. Eventually there would be war, Japan would lose, but probably not demilitarize, it'd be stopped earlier. Guomindang probably wouldn't have been as weakened as they took the main beating from Japan. Jiang probably would have beaten Mao.

The world would largely be run by an uneasy alliance of America and Britain, with France feeling the odd man out and possibly pairing up with the Russians like in the 19th Century again. Germany and Japan would be reintegrated eventually and would regain their former power in due time, cause problems sometime in the 80s.

Oh also the Middle East especially would look a lot different with a stronger British Imperialist presence for some time, and I think a better solution to Palestine, without the holocaust having happened.

[John Fire]

Gustave5436, on Nov 26 2007, 09:14 PM, said:

USSR's military was crap until the 1940s, no way by then is the USSR going to single-handedly invade Europe. Without Hitler commanding Germany the European powers would probably all gather in an anti-Russian alliance and crush the USSR.

I doubt we would have landed on the moon in 1969 in this scenario. Firstly, the Nazis wouldn't advance missile technology as much as they did, US wouldn't capture those scientists, etc. Secondly, without the USSR's expansion into Europe and becoming a superpower there probably wouldn't be such a big space race. Without the innovations of war we would probably not be as technologically advanced as we are today. Without the destruction of war, European economies would probably be stronger than they were historically and thus less reliant on the US, US wouldn't be such an uncontested superpower. Not sure what would happen with the EU though, and without a strong USSR there wouldn't be any other strong powers capable of matching the US on their own.

You seriously underestimate the influence of communist and socialist forces in Europe at the time. The Spanish Civil War was between fascists and thinly veiled socialists and communists. Also the communist victory in China would have been accelerated due to a lack of a common enemy for the nationalist and communists, the communists would have won. Russia's weakness during this time would be precisely the reason for invading eastern Europe, but instead of taking what it had historically, it would have gone for the whole enchilada. Stalin was not so different from Hitler. It is very easy to assume that he would have taken aggressive actions in absense of a German power, and the war in Europe would be only opposed by a weak France, Scandinavia, and England which could never field a large army in Europe to match the Russians.

[Kenadian_2006]

You could probably see something more similar to Red Alert, IE: Stalin going for a stroll through every European capital.

[Emperor Mccole]

the world would be a much suckier place. or maybe a much better one. or maybe about the same. it depends.

[Megami]

John Fire has a point, but he gives the USSR too much credit.

In a similar scenario, you'd have the USSR vs. the "allies" of the UK, France, Italy, Germany, and the remnants of eastern europe to the west, with Nationalist China and Japan collaborating against a soviet invasion of China. The USSR will fair rather badly due to the british and japanese naval power, and britain's long range bombers. When the US enters, it's all over for the USSR as they face Eisenhower, Patton, Montgomery, and Rommel in the west, and MacArthur backed up by Nimitz and Yamato in the east. Add to that the USAAF's massive strategic bombing force, and the soviets would be finished. Likewise the final shot being a german atomic bomb dropped on Moscow via USAAF B-29.

The Soviet Union would have been utterly crushed.

[Gustave5436]

John Fire, on Nov 26 2007, 09:57 PM, said:

You seriously underestimate the influence of communist and socialist forces in Europe at the time. The Spanish Civil War was between fascists and thinly veiled socialists and communists. Also the communist victory in China would have been accelerated due to a lack of a common enemy for the nationalist and communists, the communists would have won. Russia's weakness during this time would be precisely the reason for invading eastern Europe, but instead of taking what it had historically, it would have gone for the whole enchilada. Stalin was not so different from Hitler. It is very easy to assume that he would have taken aggressive actions in absense of a German power, and the war in Europe would be only opposed by a weak France, Scandinavia, and England which could never field a large army in Europe to match the Russians.

What am I underestimating? I included the possibility of Germany going Communist before the Nazis even have a chance of coming to power...

The Spanish Civil War was launched by the fascists, if Germany never becomes Nazi/collapses early it's unlikely that it will happen or last long, which means the USSR won't have as much of a chance to destroy the legitimate Republican Spanish government in favor of its own Stalinist puppet regime. Yes, there were a lot of socialists there, but not all of them were Stalinists. For example, Orwell. Fought the fascists, wasn't a Stalinist.

The Communists only won in China because the Kuomintang forces were severely weakened by the war with Japan; Nationalist China did most of the fighting, the Communists just did "guerilla attacks" and preserved their forces, and were in an excellent position by the end to attack the Nationalists, especially with Soviet aid. With Japan isolated (no American "Germany first" strategy) the Nationalists will probably take less damage, and with the USSR possibly openly hostile the Americans would directly aid the Nationalist forces.

In 1938 the USSR was in NO position to attack anyone. Seriously, it was still screwed by the purges and even in real history when Germany attacked in 1941 it was in no condition to seriously resist the German forces. Further, Stalin only captured all that territory from the Axis beginning in 1944, before that he had not been able to advance out of actual Russian territory. If Germany isn't Nazi but also isn't Communist, I highly doubt that the USSR alone would be able to overrun Europe, etc., especially not before the 1940s. With Communist Germany in the 20s, more countries may have gone Communist, the USSR been able to reclaim the Baltics, Poland, etc. so it's possible in that circumstance that the USSR could overrun Europe. Not with a Germany losing Hitler in 1938 scenario though.

[SynthFG]

Japan would have conqured China and then probably taken a bite out of Siberia,
No way they would have gone south with the British, French and Dutch Empires not elsewhise destracted

A more likely scenario for your orignial premmise, is that If in Sept 1939 the french and British had launched an immidiate invasion from the west as Germany attacked Poland, before the USSR became involved.

Germany would have had to withdraw or face defeat, Hitler would have lost face and been forced to resign and National Socialism would have collapsed (Perhaps), Germany would have again become a large weak power in the middle of Europe and Probably splintered by the late 60's

The West was never really interested in the China conflict and would have cheared Japan vs the Soviets
Depending on who won, would then dominate Asian History for the remainder of the 20th Cent,
But there would have been no Korea or Vietnam.

The Empires would not have collapsed so readily, tho India would have soon become self governing within the empire,

Britain would have retained control of Arabia and been enriched by control of not only the North Sea but also the arabian oil supplies.

Whilst the Mandate to control Palestine would still have expired in 1947, there would have been no drive in Jewish settlement, and the corresponding surge in Arab Nationalism would have been much muted. Nassr woldn't have been able to precipitate the Suez crisis for instance

Africa would still be a hole tho some of the smaller mineral rich territories on the west coast may have prospered without the decent into couruption and chaos that folloewd indipendance

America would have never shaken off her isolationalist tendancies, and may have swung even more firmly into the grip of the religious right

[Xiao Weng]

If the Germans hadn't declared their war, the Soviets would have.

[Smallfrog]

King Penchuk, on Nov 27 2007, 04:40 AM, said:

Let's say the League of Nations stomped on Hitler in 1938 and effectively ended his regime. Imagine the past 69 years are hereby re-written.

What do you see happening? Factor in the fact that this does not stop Imperialistic Japan and the Iron Curtain never exists.

In 1938 the League of Nations couldn't even tell someone off, let alone stop Hitler.


And if you follow the course of History from 1919, you will see that there where at least 3 opportunities for WWII before the invasion of Poland.


Manchuria, Abyssinia, Czechoslovakia. So the idea that WWII would not have happened requires you to assume that WWI didn't happen, which requires you to assume that the Franco-Prussian war never happened, which requires you to assume......


See my point?