Londo Mollari Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 ATHENS ANNOUNCEMENT There is no difference, morally speaking, between attacking a single nation without his consent, and attacking 5 nations, or 10 nations, or 15 nations, or even 39 nations. In any of these cases, what you are doing is initiating a combative interaction with another person without his consent. This is generally an accepted behavior on Bob, because without it, the vast majority of wars would have never happened. Since enjoyment of war is quite widespread on this little globe of ours, it is hypocrisy of the highest order to condemn someone for making the first move of aggression in any circumstance, because you are attacking the causes of something you enjoy, most probably to gain some political advantage for yourself. In my view, what is fundamentally more important to wars is not the way in which they are begun, but the way in which they are conducted. Most of the grief that has come out of war in this realm has done so because people attempt to utterly crush their opponents, to wipe them out of the world, to prevent them from ever possibly threatening to do the same thing to them. This destroys nations. It destroys the enjoyment of nation rulers and they depart this world, often never to return. Curbstomps are less enjoyable for those who initiate them, as well as for those who are on the receiving end, compared to more even wars. Tech raiding, when it is properly conducted, is nothing more than an invitation to engage in a reasonably even war. The reason that tech raiding does not normally have the explicit backing of the alliance is to prevent overwhelming advantages of numbers from building up and making any tech raid into a curb stomp or threat of one. Is war itself, of any kind, necessarily wrong? Or is it one of the most meaningful types of interactions we can have in this world, far more so than monotonous exchanges of cash for technology or quests for fixed resource trades? People do not die in this realm, soldiers can be bought back instantly. The only thing that really matters in the end is the enjoyment of the nation ruler, and I feel that reasonably fair contests of skill and strength provide for this admirably. I am not happy with the state of things, where war is demonized at all times but pursued to the utter destruction of foes, with white peace even after weeks and weeks of beating being seen as 'merciful'. Is this more civilized than honorable raiding? I do not think it is. It has been brought to my attention that there exists vast and widespread social disapproval of the recent raid made by Athens and Federation of Buccaneers upon Knights of Ni! I feel that much of this disapproval is fundamentally rooted in the desire to gain social or political advantage, but I do accept it as the dominant paradigm. In recognition of this, I can assure all of Planet Bob that Athens will no longer be engaging in tech raids of any kind on nations that occupy an affiliation which is recognized and listed by the world itself. We do not have the strength or the support to gain acceptance for our worldview, which is that limited conflict is good and healthy but striving for the utter destruction of foes is bad and wrong. We invite the Knights of Ni! to discuss this issue with us government to government if they would seek redress for our actions. Thank you, and good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enrage Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) good luck Edited November 15, 2009 by Enrage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotillion Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 o/ the merciful Athens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamse06 Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 o/ Athens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Love the announcement, but people are only disapproving of Athens raiding. It's like that around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Andrew Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 May The Knights of Ni! have mercy on Athens' soul, for I have none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruggsymuggs Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 seems like cool beans to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Scream Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) So first you're all tough and now you're attempting to make excuses? I thought you had more dignity than that. I thought tech raiding was against your charter. Edited November 14, 2009 by Hell Scream Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRA KING Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Thank you for waking CN polotics, i was getting sick of seeing those ugly DoE's day in day out.. To you Sir i give the greatest graditude to. Edited November 14, 2009 by LRA KING Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacky Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Chaotic Neutral. Edited November 14, 2009 by Blacky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 So first you're all tough and now you're attempting to make excuses?I thought you had more dignity than that. Do you ever read anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scythegfx Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Welp, Lets hope this works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakamitai Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Thank you for pointing out, Londo, that all of NPO's so-called "wars of oppression" were the moral equivalents of tech raiding. We look forward to further announcements from Athens along these lines. Edit: minor correction Edited November 14, 2009 by bakamitai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Okay, here's my problem with this statement. People join alliances for protection. That is the number 1 reason that new people join alliances. So that they don't get raided. Then what happens? You go and raid this alliance. You can't just go raiding alliances, no matter how big they are. It defies the original point of having alliances in the first place. Sure, it's one thing if there's a reason for that war. People who screw up should be punished. But as far as I can tell, there was no reason for this war other than a tech raid. If you really needed to raid tech, you should have done it to people who weren't part of alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo Uruk Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Thank you for pointing out, Londo, that all of NPO's so-called "wars of aggression" are the moral equivalent of a tech raid. Er, no. He said that raiding different alliances is the same. Not extorting, disbanding, and generally destroying. I'm not saying NPO is the work of the devil, but you aren't simple tech raiders either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medtech Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) May The Knights of Ni! have mercy on Athens' soul, for I have none. So first you're all tough and now you're attempting to make excuses?I thought you had more dignity than that. I thought tech raiding was against your charter. It truely amazes me that no matter what someone says or does that there is always the drama vultures that continue to be demeaning no matter what. Any how o/ Londo well said Edited November 14, 2009 by medtech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted November 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Okay, here's my problem with this statement. People join alliances for protection. That is the number 1 reason that new people join alliances. So that they don't get raided. Then what happens? You go and raid this alliance. You can't just go raiding alliances, no matter how big they are. It defies the original point of having alliances in the first place. Sure, it's one thing if there's a reason for that war. People who screw up should be punished. But as far as I can tell, there was no reason for this war other than a tech raid. If you really needed to raid tech, you should have done it to people who weren't part of alliances. And yet, most people don't join alliances to hide from wars - or everyone would be in TDO or GPA. But nearly all wars are vicious curbstomps that cause nation rulers to depart this world. Does it not then follow, that most people want wars, but not ones that are so vicious as to utterly destroy them? Are we really going to keep it up with the curbstomps, year after year after year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Scream Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Do you ever read anything? Are you going to try and defeat my argument or try to insult me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill n ted Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) Wasnt this the kind of behavior that demonized Valhalla and a few other hegemony alliances? Then Karma came along to make the world nice again. It obviously failed. You have sown the wind. You shall reap the whirlwind. Ah Karma.... Edited November 14, 2009 by bill n ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Andrew Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 (edited) It's truely amazes me that no matter what someone says or does that there is always the drama vultures that continue to be demeaning no matter what. What, I can't respect Athens anymore because I don't agree with them at ALL: We do not have the strength or the support to gain acceptance for our worldview, which is that limited conflict is good and healthy but striving for the utter destruction of foes is bad and wrong. "Our war is a-ok because it makes Bob more fun!1!!!!1" Edited November 14, 2009 by Darth Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medtech Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Are you going to try and defeat my argument or try to insult me? spin spin spin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hell Scream Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Londo, you attacked 39 defenseless nations in an attempt to steal what is not yours and crumble their alliance. You expected them to lay down while you destroy their nations. You pressed the "declare war" button. That's called declaring war. You declared war without a reason, other than your amusement. I await the death of Athens. It will come, eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 And yet, most people don't join alliances to hide from wars - or everyone would be in TDO or GPA. But nearly all wars are vicious curbstomps that cause nation rulers to depart this world. Does it not then follow, that most people want wars, but not ones that are so vicious as to utterly destroy them? Are we really going to keep it up with the curbstomps, year after year after year? Actually, most people do join alliances to hide from wars. Think of all the recruitment messages sent to new people in this game every day. What is one of the top things included in all those recruitment messages? Something along protecting them from raiders. It's why alliances exist. A lot of those new people don't know about GPA or TDO, or they probably would be joining those alliances. And you have no right to complain about curbstomps. I don't care if this was a tech raid, or if it was because they were spying on you, what this is is a curbstomp. I hope Athens has plans to pay reps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael Nadal Posted November 14, 2009 Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 Thank you for pointing out, Londo, that all of NPO's so-called "wars of oppression" were the moral equivalents of tech raiding. We look forward to further announcements from Athens along these lines.Edit: minor correction So your "wars of oppression" were not full military operations, with nukes, and cm's and whatnot? And after you concluded military operations, you did not demand more tech? Please, I may not fully like the level of this raid, but you can just go home now, if you're going to try and convince us all that Athens' raid was equivalent to your alliance's actions, say regarding GPA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londo Mollari Posted November 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2009 I await the death of Athens. It will come, eventually. Everyone dies. Not everyone really lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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