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Sweet mother of pearl, Norway releases info Transparency about every individual and their earnings Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Barron von Hammer 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:42 AM

Social democracy or tax porno fueled by envy?

http://www.msnbc.msn...ld_news-europe/


Quote

Who makes what? In Norway, it's all online
Release of income and wealth data stirs media frenzy, playground taunts

The Associated Press
updated 11:03 a.m. CT, Thurs., Oct . 22, 2009

OSLO - It's the moment nosy neighbors have been waiting for — the release of official records showing the annual income and overall wealth of nearly every Norwegian taxpayer.

In a move that would be unthinkable in most countries, tax authorities in left-leaning Norway have issued the "skatteliste," or "tax list," for 2008 to domestic media under a law designed to safeguard the country's tradition of transparency.

The annual list includes data about fishermen on the western fjords, Sami reindeer herders in the north, city folk in Oslo and even members of the committee that awarded President Barack Obama the Nobel Peace Prize.

To non-Scandinavians, it appears to be a gross violation of privacy. At home, it has stirred up a media frenzy, with splashy headlines revealing who is oil-rich Norway's wealthiest man, woman and celebrity couple.

The data shows that former cross-country skiing great Bjoern Daehlie still has plenty of cash — 29.3 million kroner — $5.4 million — to be exact. The finances of other famous Norwegians, including actress and director Liv Ullmann, former marathon champion Grete Waitz or writer Jostein Gaarder, are also unveiled.

'Tax porno'
Defenders of the system say it enhances transparency, which is essential for an open democracy.

"Isn't this how a social democracy ought to work, with openness, transparency and social equality as ideals?" wrote Jan Omdahl, a columnist for the tabloid Dagbladet. He acknowledged, however, that many treat the list like "tax porno" — furtively checking neighbors' or co-workers' incomes.

Critics say the list poses a threat to the very society whose freedom it's meant to protect.

"What each Norwegian earns and what you have in wealth is a private matter between the taxpayer and the government," said Jon Stordrange, director of the Norwegian Taxpayer's Association.


Besides providing criminals with a useful tool to find prime targets, he claimed the list generates my-dad-is-richer-than-yours taunts in the playground.

"The children of people with low wages are being teased about it in the schools," Stordrange said Thursday. "People with low salaries are being met with comments at the grocery store, 'How can you live on these low wages?'"

Tapping into databases
Many media outlets use the tax records to produce their own searchable online databases. In national broadcaster NRK's database, you can type a name, hit search and within moments get information on exactly what that person made last year, paid in taxes and his or her total wealth.

It also gives an overview of how those figures compare with Norway's national averages for men and women, and averages for that person's city of residence.

The information had been available to media until 2004, when a right-wing government banned the publication of tax records. Three years later, a new, left-leaning government reversed its predecessor's legislation and also made it possible for media to obtain tax information digitally and disseminate it online.

Norway's 2007 law emphasized that "first and foremost, it's the press that can contribute to a critical debate" on wealth and the elaborate tax scheme that, along with the country's vast oil wealth, keeps Norway's extensive — and expensive — welfare system afloat.

Who is richest man?
The country of 4.8 million people had the third highest income tax among industrialized countries in 2007, according to the latest OECD statistics, behind Denmark and New Zealand.

Since the latest tax data was released Wednesday, national media have scrambled to analyze it, building top-10 lists and graphic breakdowns of income differentials between sexes, age groups, cities and towns.


So who's Norway's richest man? Tobacco mogul Johan Henrik Andresen, worth $2 billion, has surpassed last year's No. 1, industrialist Kjell Inge Roekke, according to Dagbladet.

Norway's richest woman was stock market investor Tone Bjoerseth-Andersen, whose wealth of $107 million placed her behind 24 men, the paper said.

Members of the royal family are not on the list because they don't pay taxes. Others excluded from the list include people whose details are kept secret for security reasons and the homeless.


'Super-duels'
NRK's online edition compared the income of Norwegian celebrity couples — called "super-duels" — while newspaper Aftenposten's Web site ranked common Norwegian first names by wealth under the headline "How rich is your name?"

It found men named Terje tend to do very well, while among women, Marit is a sure winner.

Most other European countries, including Britain, Italy and the Netherlands, have very different attitudes toward transparency and privacy and would be horrified at such a scheme. Last week the Spanish government for the first time released information on how much each member of the Cabinet is worth — assets and debts — but data on private citizens is still private.

In Norway's neighbor Sweden, however, anyone can order a printed edition of the Taxation Calendar, which lists the earnings of people in mid-to-high-end income brackets. The information is also available online, but anonymous checks were barred in 2007 after a public outcry. Swedes whose finances have been viewed online are now notified by mail about who checked their details.

Christine Ingebritsen, a professor at the University of Washington who studies Scandinavian economics, said the Norwegian tax list exemplifies a time-tested, distinctly Scandinavian custom of egalitarianism.

"This is how you make sure that you're being legitimate in the eyes of the community — you show that the wealth of a CEO isn't off the charts," she said. Unlike the U.S., Norway "places the wealth and health of all as a priority above the individual success stories."


Still, even in egalitarian Norway the tax list has plenty of opponents. A 2007 survey by research group Synovate revealed that only 32 percent of the Norwegian public wanted the tax list published, while 46 percent were against it.

Georg Apnes, the director of Norway's Data Inspectorate and a member of the Conservative Party, called the tradition of publishing and combing through the tax list "repulsive" and "disgusting" on an NRK morning news program.

"It reflects very poorly on our culture and on our society," he commented.


Here is one of the skattelister sites online listed by municipalities, etc. http://translate.goo...elist%26hl%3Den

Edited to include the following: Imagine the implications within industry. One can now see if his fellow worker (doing the same job) is getting paid more or less. There will be social implications as well as neighbors will suddenly feel different toward each other (though certainly not in every case, it depends; for example how would you feel knowing what your neighbors, family members, fellow workers make a year?). This was a Norwegian practice until 2004 but now that the right leaning gov was replaced by a left leaning one they have reinstated this policy. It certainly enforces accountability though, grossly massive salaries will be much harder to justify and maintain.

This post has been edited by Barron von Hammer: 22 October 2009 - 10:50 AM


#2 User is offline   edikroma 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:47 AM

Best. Idea. Ever. :awesome:

#3 User is offline   Arcturus Jefferson 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:49 AM

Quote

Members of the royal family are not on the list because they don't pay taxes. Others excluded from the list include people whose details are kept secret for security reasons...

How egalitarian. :rolleyes:

#4 User is offline   Flatlander 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:50 AM

Gold-diggers and conmen in Norway no longer have to rely on Facebook to pick their targets ... hurrah for progress.

#5 User is offline   edikroma 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 10:55 AM

Well, to be fair, I think currently, if you work for a major state University, your income is already public knowledge. But an entire nation?

#6 User is offline   Lord GVChamp 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 11:10 AM

Quote

"Isn't this how a social democracy ought to work, with openness, transparency and social equality as ideals?" wrote Jan Omdahl, a columnist for the tabloid Dagbladet.


:facepalm:


The government publishing tax information on private citizens...incredible. How far do we go?


EDIT:

Quote

But an entire nation?

Why not? You don't work for yourself, you work for the glory and welfare of the nation. Now people can see your income so they can decide if you are making too much and they can decide how much of your income they want. This is indeed how a social democracy ought to work

This post has been edited by Lord GVChamp: 22 October 2009 - 11:12 AM


#7 User is offline   Kenadian_2006 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 11:35 AM

That's not transparency, that's just a gross violation of individual privacy. If someone wants their neighbour to know how much they make they'll bloody well tell them.

#8 User is offline   Sal Paradise 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 11:38 AM

Why do they think people need to know this?

#9 User is offline   Tyler DurdenCC 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 11:39 AM

Quote

The data shows that former cross-country skiing great Bjoern Daehlie still has plenty of cash — 29.3 million kroner — $5.4 million — to be exact.


I knew I should have taken up skiing!

#10 User is offline   deja 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 12:13 PM

Quote

Defenders of the system say it enhances transparency, which is essential for an open democracy.

I wish someone would explain to me how this type of transparency furthers "open" democracy.

"Well see, I know it seems like it violates your privacy, but transparency is important in a democracy, so while you may at first feel embarrassed about everyone knowing you had syphilis a few times back in college, you're missing the big picture!"

#11 User is offline   Barron von Hammer 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 12:18 PM

View Postdeja, on Oct 22 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

I wish someone would explain to me how this type of transparency furthers "open" democracy.

"Well see, I know it seems like it violates your privacy, but transparency is important in a democracy, so while you may at first feel embarrassed about everyone knowing you had syphilis a few times back in college, you're missing the big picture!"



And that is the problem I have with it, at the very least this opens up a door to all kind of problems. Here in the States employers can check one's credit, legal status (do you have a record, etc), and in some cases even your college transcript. Imagine having your gpa posted.

It also takes away any leverage you have as prospective companies can see what you are making ad reward pay not on ability but on what you are used to, etc.

#12 User is offline   deSouza 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 12:32 PM

Norway keeps going up on my concept

#13 User is offline   flak attack 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 02:36 PM

So, who else thinks this is going to lead to a spike of burglaries?

#14 User is offline   Chrono 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 02:48 PM

So, I guess this falls under the Ministry of Truth?

#15 User is offline   Kenadian_2006 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 02:49 PM

I guess that falls under laughable 1984 comparison and hyperbole.

#16 User is offline   Lord GVChamp 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:40 PM

View PostKenadian_2006, on Oct 22 2009, 03:49 PM, said:

I guess that falls under laughable 1984 comparison and hyperbole.

Nope. When you follow the assumption that all of what you produce is rightfully the property of the state if it decides it must redistribute them in the interest of welfare, it is only natural that the state will want to look at all of your finances in order to determine what you should owe. When you follow the assumption that democracy is right and just and that voters must be perfectly informed, it is only natural to release all asset information to the public so that voters can decide for themselves how just society is and how much needs to be changed.

Social democracy is such a beautiful thing

These are YOUR beliefs in action.
Disgusted by them?
Good. You SHOULD be.

#17 User is offline   Bob Janova 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 03:53 PM

It's funny how some people go completely mad when another country with different cultural norms does something that they would disagree with. I actually think it's a great idea, it makes it much harder to have hidden discrimination in pay, and easier to trim inequality.

As the quote says, Norway already did this except during 2004-7 under a rightist government.

#18 User is offline   deSouza 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:01 PM

View Postflak attack, on Oct 22 2009, 06:36 PM, said:

So, who else thinks this is going to lead to a spike of burglaries?


I'd be impressed if there was a burglary hype since this is going on since 2007

View PostChrono, on Oct 22 2009, 06:48 PM, said:

So, I guess this falls under the Ministry of Truth?



Protip: The government has that sort of information.
It doesn't often publishes, but Id say that the ministry of truth would keep that kind of info to itself.

View PostLord GVChamp, on Oct 22 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

Nope. When you follow the assumption that all of what you produce is rightfully the property of the state if it decides it must redistribute them in the interest of welfare, it is only natural that the state will want to look at all of your finances in order to determine what you should owe. When you follow the assumption that democracy is right and just and that voters must be perfectly informed, it is only natural to release all asset information to the public so that voters can decide for themselves how just society is and how much needs to be changed.

Social democracy is such a beautiful thing

These are YOUR beliefs in action.
Disgusted by them?
Good. You SHOULD be.



This has nothing to do with following assumptions of material goods belonging to the state.
The state already has that kind of information and effectively acts as owner of people in most countries, even preventing them from coming and going as it pleases. I dont see you complaining about barring illegal immigrants...
This is the state loosening its grip and giving society information.
All those things that were carefully guarded by bureaucrats are now (or, better said, since 2007) available to the public, and not just available, easily available, making sure people actually know each other's economic situation beyond appearances. Yes, it follows the assumption that democracy is right, yes it is releasing asset information so that voters can decide how just society is (and how crooked some might or might not be!), and that is essentially a beautiful thing. Thats how it should be everywhere.

#19 User is offline   Lord GVChamp 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:07 PM

View PostdeSouza, on Oct 22 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

This has nothing to do with following assumptions of material goods belonging to the state.
The state already has that kind of information and effectively acts as owner of people in most countries, even preventing them from coming and going as it pleases. I dont see you complaining about barring illegal immigrants...
This is the state loosening its grip and giving society information.
All those things that were carefully guarded by bureaucrats are now (or, better said, since 2007) available to the public, and not just available, easily available, making sure people actually know each other's economic situation beyond appearances. Yes, it follows the assumption that democracy is right, yes it is releasing asset information so that voters can decide how just society is (and how crooked some might or might not be!), and that is essentially a beautiful thing. Thats how it should be everywhere.

This entirely follows the principle of material goods belonging to the state when the state is carrying out social justice. Otherwise, there is absolutely no need for this information to be distributed.

I suspect this MAY be a political ploy, but I'm not up-to-date on Norwegian politics

#20 User is offline   deSouza 

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Posted 22 October 2009 - 04:13 PM

View PostLord GVChamp, on Oct 22 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

This entirely follows the principle of material goods belonging to the state when the state is carrying out social justice. Otherwise, there is absolutely no need for this information to be distributed.

I suspect this MAY be a political ploy, but I'm not up-to-date on Norwegian politics


It follows the principle that society is open and people have nothing to hide.
Taxes follow the principle that material goods belong to the state...
What state has no taxation, by the way?

Its not a political ploy, its an habitual practice there that was interrupted in 2004-2007 and is now back.

This post has been edited by deSouza: 22 October 2009 - 04:15 PM


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