[Arcturus Jefferson]

http://news.antiwar....attack-somalia/

Quote

Following confirmation by the French military that they definitely weren’t in the process of invading Somalia, the United States military is now confirming that it is, in fact, American forces that are pouring into the southern portion of the country in a helicopter-backed invasion.

So how will Black Hawk Down II: The Revenge of Black Hawk Down play at the box office?

[Lord GVChamp]

http://www.cnn.com/2...ters/index.html

Far as I can tell, only a SF raid. Not some new invasion...

[Moridin]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Sep 14 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

http://news.antiwar....attack-somalia/



So how will Black Hawk Down II: The Revenge of Black Hawk Down play at the box office?

As "antiwar.com" doesn't seem like the most unbiased source, is this being reported by any major news outlet? Or by "pouring into" Somalia do they mean a small special forces raid that killed an Al-Qaida operative?

[Arcturus Jefferson]

Moridin, on Sep 15 2009, 01:24 AM, said:

As "antiwar.com" doesn't seem like the most unbiased source, is this being reported by any major news outlet? Or by "pouring into" Somalia do they mean a small special forces raid that killed an Al-Qaida operative?

Before you get snippy about a source you should browse the article for corroborating links like ones from the AP. This was linked to in the article:
http://www.google.co...lWmrrwD9ANARF80

Lord GVChamp said:

Far as I can tell, only a SF raid. Not some new invasion...

So that "doesn't count" as an act of war anymore?

[Arrnea]

Uh-oh. That's all I can say.

[Aeternos Astramora]

I support this action.

Also, raid =/= war, especially considering al-Shabab is not the legally recognized government.

[Moridin]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Sep 14 2009, 10:27 PM, said:

Before you get snippy about a source you should browse the article for corroborating links like ones from the AP. This was linked to in the article:
http://www.google.co...lWmrrwD9ANARF80

The two say entirely different things - antiwar.com is saying our troops are "pouring into" Somalia, in a "helicopter-backed invasion" which is worlds apart from a commando raid with the goal of killing a single terrorist. And, I would probably be opposed to this action if it was any country but Somalia, but they have no government so speak of in the first place and are already engaged in a civil war - so forgive me if I don't consider special forces killing an Al Qaida suspect in Somalia a severe wrong.

edit: spelling/cohesion

This post has been edited by Moridin: 14 September 2009 - 11:37 PM

[Arcturus Jefferson]

And people get all incredulous when it is stated that we have an empire.

[Moridin]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Sep 14 2009, 10:37 PM, said:

And people get all incredulous when it is stated that we have an empire.

The 50 states and a few islands does not an empire make... I agree that we have an overly interventionist foreign policy, but does killing a terrorist in a lawless country constitute imperialism?

[Aeternos Astramora]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Sep 15 2009, 12:37 AM, said:

And people get all incredulous when it is stated that we have an empire.

Yes, we do. It's because we don't have an empire. A small raid into Somalia does not make an empire.

Edit:

The official said a total of four Somalis were killed while the Somali government source said that Nabhan and four others died.

"These young fighters do not have the same skills as their colleagues in Afghanistan or elsewhere when it comes to foreign air strikes," the government source told Reuters. "They are in confusion now. I hope the world takes action."

http://www.nytimes.c...flict.html?_r=1

Yes, Somalia seems very upset with us.

This post has been edited by Aeternos Astramora: 14 September 2009 - 11:41 PM

[Rebel Virginia]

Aeternos Astramora, on Sep 15 2009, 01:39 AM, said:

Yes, Somalia seems very upset with us.

I don't think I'll use any sleep over it. Anyway, I think we ought to just bomb the pirate bases as well. The Navy can handle it. Can be done with that scum while being hundreds of miles away.

[popsumpot]

Moridin, on Sep 15 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

The 50 states and a few islands does not an empire make... I agree that we have an overly interventionist foreign policy, but does killing a terrorist in a lawless country constitute imperialism?

Actually - it does. Imperialism is the control of one country over anther's affairs. Also, if a country has colonies, it is infact Imperialistic. The 50 states and the 3 colonies does make the United States and empire.

[Moridin]

popsumpot, on Sep 15 2009, 01:38 AM, said:

Actually - it does. Imperialism is the control of one country over anther's affairs. Also, if a country has colonies, it is infact Imperialistic. The 50 states and the 3 colonies does make the United States and empire.

Wonderful, then by that definition Britain is an empire, France is an empire, Portugal is an empire, New Zealand is an empire, even Chile is an empire if you count Easter Island, as your definition of what constitutes a "colony" seems to be geographic distance from the rest of the country. Point is, the possession of territory not contiguous to the rest of the country does not suddenly make you an empire, and sending in 6 helicopters with special forces to kill a terrorist in an lawless nation has almost nothing to do with it at all.

This post has been edited by Moridin: 15 September 2009 - 02:44 AM

[popsumpot]

Moridin, on Sep 15 2009, 06:46 PM, said:

Wonderful, then by that definition Britain is an empire, France is an empire, Portugal is an empire, New Zealand is an empire, even Chile is an empire if you count Easter Island... point is, the possession of territory not contiguous to the rest of the country does not suddenly make you an empire, and sending in 6 helicopters with special forces to kill a terrorist in an lawless nation has almost nothing to do with empire.

Yes, Britain is an empire. Yes, France is an empire. Yes Portugal is an empire. What's your point? You have put negative connotations on the word empire yourself.

Sending 6 helicopters with special forces into another country is imperialistic. When you install military bases and missiles around the world, that's imperialistic. I am not saying it is not justified, I don't know the details, but the fact is it is imperialistic.

[Foggers]

You want a real empire? Come with me when they make time machines and I'm heading straight to the 19th Century to be a cavalry officer.

[Moridin]

popsumpot, on Sep 15 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

Sending 6 helicopters with special forces into another country is imperialistic. When you install military bases and missiles around the world, that's imperialistic. I am not saying it is not justified, I don't know the details, but the fact is it is imperialistic.

Somalia cannot be considered a "country" by any definition other than that its neighbors have decided their country ends at a particular point and what's left is this entity we call Somalia. There is no government to speak of (at least that governs more than a few city blocks), so there is no authority to allow or deny us access, and a person who is probably responsible for attacking the United States is within this area. We are not controlling Somalian affairs in any way shape or form, we are not seeking to colonize them... unless you've come up with a new definition for "empire" already, this does not even come close to being imperialistic.

[Foggers]

Wait, so any act of war these days is considered imperialistic?

[Mussolandia]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Sep 15 2009, 06:27 AM, said:

Before you get snippy about a source you should browse the article for corroborating links like ones from the AP. This was linked to in the article:
http://www.google.co...lWmrrwD9ANARF80


So that "doesn't count" as an act of war anymore?

I think you need a state to attack for it to be an act of war. I doubt the Somalian government will protest. In fact, they'll probably cheer it.

This post has been edited by Mussolandia: 15 September 2009 - 03:01 AM

[Loki Ire]

Foggers, on Sep 15 2009, 04:59 AM, said:

Wait, so any act of war these days is considered imperialistic?

Didn't you get the memo? A helicopter shooting at a car =

Also, the "government" of Somalia is welcoming the attack as they're thankful to be rid of another terrorist from their lands.
http://cnnwire.blogs...killed-in-raid/

[-Wolverine-]

But Obama was going to bring our troops home!

Oh wait, just another empty promise.