[Mongol Federation]

I found this article (an op ed piece) that makes an interesting argument for universal healthcare.

When the Cuban system is better then America's, you know somethings up...

[Darth Andrew]

http://www.miscelane...df...Press.pdf\

I've only just begun reading it, but here's an interesting tidbit:

Quote

Eliciting critical narratives regarding the health care system therefore necessitated
informal research methods, and much of the information I gathered on these topics is fragmented
and anecdotal. This should not be taken to mean that the data are insignificant. To the contrary,
it is worth pointing out that a number of the conclusions social scientists have previously made
about Cuba and the Cuban health care system have not been based on any ethnographic or
qualitative research. When social scientists interested in health care have gone to Cuba, their
research appears to have been of short duration and most likely mediated through the use of
government-provided translators or guides (3). As Paul Hollander has pointed out, short term
“hosted” visits to socialist countries have historically resulted in painfully inaccurate
assumptions about the nature of life in these societies (Hollander, 1998).

[Isildur]

Quote

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, United Nation, Dec. 10, 1948

Article 25: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."

I always found this one interesting. Its my opinion that government cannot guarantee any rights for which it has to violate the rights of others to provide them.

In order to provide the "right" to a standard of living, government must use its force to infringe upon the propery or freedom of others. This one seems to be directly or at least indirectly at odds with several earlier rights declared in this document, such as:

Quote

Article 4
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.
...
Article 8
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
...
Article 12
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
...
Article 17
Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

In that a government, to provide such services, must seize the property or garnish the labor of others.

Anyway, that aside, the reason America's healthcare system is flawed is too much government, not too little.

Been wanting to write something up on this in detail but haven't gotten around to it. Some key points to consider:

1) The WHO rankings include factors that measure how nationalized a system is -- that is, a nationalized system that performs on all other metrics equivalent to a private one will be favored in the rankings. Thats irrelevant.

2) On comparisons between system, metrics like life expectancy that are often highlighted usually don't take into account natural death rates versus things not relevant to health systems like unnatural death. meaning a society that engages in more risky behavior gets ranked lower.

3) A huge portion of costs in the American system are end-of-life costs. Because of third party payment like insurance, etc., without government imposed rationing, these costs rise exorbitantly in our system. I haven't yet found a good comparison of the ratio of total health care costs to end of life costs for different countries, but I suspect that they would be a much higher percentage in the U.S. system as opposed to those where there are indeed some decisions being made about when to stop spending

Oh well, maybe I'll try and bite the bullet and pull something together this week. It'll be tl;dr for anybody but policy wonks but been wanting to do it for my own sake so maybe this will give me a good reason to do it.

[Zarfef]

Ah, seeing as we now have a topic on US health care, this just came out on Yahoo News today, something that might be of interest. It seems to hold bias towards the more liberal crowd all the same (you can tell from the authors attitude) but ultimately any piece shows bias. It does back up it's arguments nicely I believe though.

http://news.yahoo.co...care_fact_check

Despite the fact that China's dedication to humanity is something I question, it is notable that this quote resonates well with me:

Quote

In civilized countries, medicine and medical attention is not really a business, but a dedication, as is music, art, science, or any profession. To profess a discipline is not the same as what is commonly called in strongly capitalist American society, 'making money' or earning wages from someone else's 'money making'.

As a physicist, I can concur. People who have a "Profession" do their labor because it something desire to do. A physicist enjoys discovering new features of the universe for others to enjoy and so a doctor should do their works to enjoy saving and healing those who are sick (And I fully agree they should have the right to snap and give people who use them like parasites as I have heard about a "good stern talking to" that would scare the NPO). Any doctor who does his work for the money and not for the profession in and of itself is not worth his paycheck or the right to see patients.

This post has been edited by Zarfef: 02 August 2009 - 12:42 PM

[Chrono]

Fact: Almost 90% of Americans have health insurance.

Fact: Almost 80% of Americans are happy with their health care.

[Kenadian_2006]

Chrono, on Aug 2 2009, 02:15 PM, said:

Fact: Almost 90% of Americans have health insurance.

Fact: Almost 80% of Americans are happy with their health care.

Another fact, you provided no source. I especially would like one for that second fact of yours.

[PrinceCaspian]

I think we should all move to Cuba. The country must be sooooo great!

[Kenadian_2006]

Hey, if it's all like the resorts it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

[Ethan Smith]

Cuba likely has the best mass healthcare in the world. They would probably have better facilities than us if we didn't allow them to buy medical necessities.

[Simon De Montfort]

Ethan Smith, on Aug 2 2009, 03:22 PM, said:

Cuba likely has the best mass healthcare in the world. They would probably have better facilities than us if we didn't allow them to buy medical necessities.

So why do people risk death the flee Cuba then? You wouldn't expect that from a nation with the "best mass healthcare in the world" now would you?

[Mongol Federation]

Simon De Montfort, on Aug 2 2009, 04:59 PM, said:

So why do people risk death the flee Cuba then? You wouldn't expect that from a nation with the "best mass healthcare in the world" now would you?

The same could be said of Americans (minus the death risk) fleeing to Canada, 8,750 in 2007.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Simon De Montfort, on Aug 2 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

So why do people risk death the flee Cuba then? You wouldn't expect that from a nation with the "best mass healthcare in the world" now would you?

Due to political differences. Obviously if you are not a communist you will like to leave, especially if you are right of center. As a result they could have the grandest health care system in the world (not saying they do) and there would still be people who will flee.

[SilverHawk]

New Inca Empire, on Aug 2 2009, 04:42 PM, said:

The same could be said of Americans (minus the death risk) fleeing to Canada, 8,750 in 2007.

How can you "flee" to Canada? I can take a nice jaunt through the forest and be in Canada with no one the wiser. Plus, Americans don't move to Canada for the Healthcare, Senior's do Prescription Loops for the cheap as dirt meds.

[Kenadian_2006]

SilverHawk, on Aug 2 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

How can you "flee" to Canada? I can take a nice jaunt through the forest and be in Canada with no one the wiser. Plus, Americans don't move to Canada for the Healthcare, Senior's do Prescription Loops for the cheap as dirt meds.

Ironically, our insurance doesn't cover meds.

[edikroma]

Simon De Montfort, on Aug 2 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

So why do people risk death the flee Cuba then? You wouldn't expect that from a nation with the "best mass healthcare in the world" now would you?

Because health care system has nothing to do with political freedoms? Because poverty and lack of political say make the trip across to the US seem worthwhile? I mean, I can't believe people keep bringing that argument up when someone says that Cuba's health care system gives them the best vital statistics in the region...

If you're going to fault these statistics, then look at things like how the data is collected, or reported by the Cuban authorities. Or the fact that foreign health care tourists who visit the country supposedly get the best care, while locals don't.

[Chrono]

Kenadian_2006, on Aug 2 2009, 07:47 PM, said:

Another fact, you provided no source. I especially would like one for that second fact of yours.

40 million without health insurance. 265/305 = 86.8%

As to point 2:
http://www.airliners...main/2095590/1/

Quote

"A survey conducted jointly by the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their own personal medical care, but only 44 percent were satisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system. The survey is the only recent poll for which data is publicly available that allows for a comparison of the satisfaction of insured and uninsured Americans."

Those with recent serious health problems, possibly the people with the best knowledge of how health care is working, were generally the most satisfied. Ninety-three percent of insured Americans who had recently suffered a serious illness were satisfied with their health care. So were 95 percent of those who suffered from chronic illness.

Uninsured Americans, not surprisingly, are not as satisfied as people who have insurance. Nonetheless, 70 percent of the uninsured who indicated their level of satisfaction said they were either "satisfied" or "very satisfied" with their health care, and only 17.5 percent said they were "very dissatisfied."

A majority of the uninsured, about 60 percent of them, have personal incomes over $50,000 per year and pay out of their own pockets when necessary, rather than paying for insurance. Others manage to obtain care at highly discounted rates as charity cases.

An interesting point was made that 14 million of the uninsured qualify for Medicaid and enroll when they require care.

This post has been edited by Chrono: 02 August 2009 - 04:09 PM

[Arcturus Jefferson]

I think the real problem is people keep getting sick.

[edikroma]

Arcturus Jefferson, on Aug 2 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

I think the real problem is people keep getting sick.

No, the real problem is that society apparently has some sort of duty to help those who get sick...

[Lord GVChamp]

More later, but:

New Inca Empire, on Aug 2 2009, 04:42 PM, said:

The same could be said of Americans (minus the death risk) fleeing to Canada, 8,750 in 2007.

8,750 is basically a rounding error in the population of a major city.

[juslen]

Zarfef, on Aug 2 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

Ah, seeing as we now have a topic on US health care, this just came out on Yahoo News today, something that might be of interest. It seems to hold bias towards the more liberal crowd all the same (you can tell from the authors attitude) but ultimately any piece shows bias. It does back up it's arguments nicely I believe though.

http://news.yahoo.co...care_fact_check

Despite the fact that China's dedication to humanity is something I question, it is notable that this quote resonates well with me:



As a physicist, I can concur. People who have a "Profession" do their labor because it something desire to do. A physicist enjoys discovering new features of the universe for others to enjoy and so a doctor should do their works to enjoy saving and healing those who are sick (And I fully agree they should have the right to snap and give people who use them like parasites as I have heard about a "good stern talking to" that would scare the NPO). Any doctor who does his work for the money and not for the profession in and of itself is not worth his paycheck or the right to see patients.

And you think that the government taking away choice is going to help these professionals focus more on helping people and less on money?

I have heard you bring up your education on several occasions in the forums here. Would you enjoy your career if you went to school for years, put yourself thousands of dollars in debt, and then had the government step in and tell you where you are needed most, and not give you a choice based on your own preferences. Or how would you like the government to regulate your wages so you make less?

Doctors go to school for 12 years or more. Many who are extremely specialized end up with college tuition costing them 100's of thousands of dollars. And when they get out of college, they have huge bills to pay. And when they are finally working, they can put 80+ hours in a week. You think people are doctors just so they can make money? No, a majority choose to be doctors because they want to make a difference and do something that most others could never do, whether they spent 12+ years in college or not. But they do need to be provided with competitive wages, just like any other profession.

Those who take the high road, and start talking about doctors as if they should be "starving artists" is ridiculous. Its this same high and mighty attitude that the political elite practice each and every day. They talk about our health like they are going to crusade for us, and make the world a better place. None of these politicians will have to have their health care rationed through a government health care system.

The rich, the elite, those in government will still be able to bypass the road of the common man all the while putting on a smile and telling you that they are working in your best interest.

The same politicians who are in it for the money and power, are the same ones telling others that health shouldn't be about money, it should be about helping people. They are hypocrits, and they will be the ones dictating the livelihood of others.

I am tired of other people sticking their noses up in the air and acting as if they know better because they are somehow more important than others.