[steeldor]

Hi. Right now I have a trade circle going on with these resources: coal, gold, silver, gems, iron, water, aluminum, lead, oil, lumber, rubber, and marble. I have these bonus resources: Steel, automobiles, construction, technology, radiation cleanup, scholars, asphalt, and fine jewelry.

This is a pretty good trade set, but the only thing is that I have no population boost. I was wondering if it would be beneficial to cancel 2 trades, and lose 4 resources to get wheat, fish, cattle, and pigs for a 24.5% population boost. Then I would buy all the improvements I can, and then go back to my original trades, and have negative improvements, but still benefit from the ones I bought.

My current population is 26,681 so 24.5% is 6527, which would allow me to buy 7 more improvements.

Is this a good idea? Thanks.

[thaone]

Without taking a very in depth look, your TC is probably the worst collection TC swapping would often be worth the effort.

[steeldor]

thaone, on Jun 7 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

Without taking a very in depth look, your TC is probably the worst collection TC swapping would often be worth the effort.

Why is it so bad? I'm getting pretty much the best of everything except population. I've experimented with the cybernations resource calculator and I can't find a better set then what I have now, even without a population bonus. If anybody finds a better set let me know.

This post has been edited by steeldor: 07 June 2009 - 02:55 PM

[Viluin]

steeldor, on Jun 7 2009, 10:53 PM, said:

Why is it so bad? I'm getting pretty much the best of everything except population. I've experimented with the cybernations resource calculator and I can't find a better set then what I have now, even without a population bonus. If anybody finds a better set let me know.

The 7 or 8-bonus trade set isn't necessarily bad, but it's more of a warmonger trade set since it focuses on military costs, low bills, soldier efficiency and radiation reduction (= better env in nuclear wars and more citizens). However, you have gems and silver instead of fish and wheat, which is really hurting you. Everyone should always have fish and wheat. If you swap out those resources (permanently) you'll have a decent trade set.

EDIT: I just noticed you have silver as a native resource. You may want to consider a different trade set. Water is often discarded for uranium eventually in the 7/8 bonus set, which means there is no room for different resources without giving up fish and/or wheat.

This post has been edited by Viluin: 07 June 2009 - 03:53 PM

[steeldor]

Viluin, on Jun 7 2009, 04:41 PM, said:

The 7 or 8-bonus trade set isn't necessarily bad, but it's more of a warmonger trade set since it focuses on military costs, low bills, soldier efficiency and radiation reduction (= better env in nuclear wars and more citizens). However, you have gems and silver instead of fish and wheat, which is really hurting you. Everyone should always have fish and wheat. If you swap out those resources (permanently) you'll have a decent trade set.

EDIT: I just noticed you have silver as a native resource. You may want to consider a different trade set. Water is often swapped for uranium eventually, which means there is no room for different resources without giving up fish and/or wheat.

Actually, I am mainly focusing on Income and infra cost/upkeep reduction. I'm getting the maximum infra cost reduction, tech cost reduction, environment, almost maximum land bonus and infra upkeep reduction. The military benefits happen to come with the other. And without significantly lowering the others, I can't find better income (happiness is included with income).

[Viluin]

steeldor, on Jun 7 2009, 11:54 PM, said:

Actually, I am mainly focusing on Income and infra cost/upkeep reduction. I'm getting the maximum infra cost reduction, tech cost reduction, environment, almost maximum land bonus and infra upkeep reduction. The military benefits happen to come with the other. And without significantly lowering the others, I can't find better income (happiness is included with income).

Your citizen count is directly proportional to your tax collections. Fish and wheat are the best resources in the game.

This post has been edited by Viluin: 07 June 2009 - 04:14 PM

[steeldor]

Viluin, on Jun 7 2009, 05:13 PM, said:

Your citizen count is directly proportional to your tax collections. Fish and wheat are the best resources in the game.

I know, but the happiness/income per citizen I get gives me more total income in taxes then what I would get with more population and less happiness/income per citizen.

[Count Rupert]

steeldor, on Jun 7 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

I know, but the happiness/income per citizen I get gives me more total income in taxes then what I would get with more population and less happiness/income per citizen.

Well, you're right only because you're not factoring in that the nation with your starting resources with say the 3BR would have 8 more improvements than you have and would be gaining new ones faster than you are. I'm not even going to address your improvement selection which is a completely different topic, but those 8 extra would or should be a mix of banks and more stadiums. The remaining 3 stadiums you have left to buy and all 5 banks. That's 9 more happiness and a 35% in citizen income you're not factoring in your straight up comparsion. A 5BR would be getting 6 more improvements than what you have, say 2 stadiums and 4 banks. Either one would be way ahead of the income you're getting from your current set. Let's look at the numbers.


Your Set:

Citizens: 26,681
Income: $9.50
Happiness: 16.5

So you have $9.50+(16.5*$2.00) = $42.50 income per citizen from your build, that's:

26,681*$42.50 = $1,133,942.50


3BR:

Citizens: 34,845
Income: $2.00
Happiness: 11.5

Extra Improvement Benefits:
Income: +35%
Happiness: 9

The 3BR has $2.00 + (11.5*$2.00) + (9*$2.00) = $43.00*1.35 = $58.05 income per citizen. That's:

34,845*$58.05 = $2,022,752.25



5BR:

Citizens: 32,684
Income: $2.00
Happiness: 11.00

Extra Improvement Benefits:
Income: +28%
Happiness: 6

The 5BR has $2.00 + (11.00*$2.00) + (6*$2.00) = $36.00*1.28 = $46.08 income per citizen. That's:

32,684*$46.08 = $1,506,078.72


That means the 3BR provides 78% more income than your current set and the 5 BR would provide 33% more. This is not even factoring if the one of the improvements purchased was the remaining clinic, it would provide enough citizens for another improvement meaning the above citizen counts for the 3BR and 5BR could be inceased by another 2%.

[steeldor]

For one thing, I'm improvement swapping at the moment. If you don't include the improvements, the my current set gives me more income. With my idea, I could keep my set and get 8 more improvements, so wouldn't that give me more income? Also I would still have the other benefits like purchasing/upkeep reductions.

This post has been edited by steeldor: 07 June 2009 - 06:47 PM

[Count Rupert]

steeldor, on Jun 7 2009, 08:43 PM, said:

For one thing, I'm improvement swapping at the moment. If you don't include the improvements, the my current set gives me more income. With my idea, I could keep my set and get 8 more improvements, so wouldn't that give me more income? Also I would still have the other benefits like purchasing/upkeep reductions.

Yes it will by the value of the 8 additional improvements whatever they turn out to be. But you'll be at -8 improvements once you return to your set. Other builds will again get an edge once once you've bought enough infrastructure to normally get an improvement under the other set. Because you'll be getting fewer citizens per point of infrastructure, your infrastructure costs and upkeep will climb higher at a faster pace than the other sets. Meaning they'll being not only gaining more citizens than you but also outbuilding you.

[steeldor]

Count Rupert, on Jun 7 2009, 07:57 PM, said:

Yes it will by the value of the 8 additional improvements whatever they turn out to be. But you'll be at -8 improvements once you return to your set. Other builds will again get an edge once once you've bought enough infrastructure to normally get an improvement under the other set. Because you'll be getting fewer citizens per point of infrastructure, your infrastructure costs and upkeep will climb higher at a faster pace than the other sets. Meaning they'll being not only gaining more citizens than you but also outbuilding you.

What do you mean I'll be gaining less citizens?

[Count Rupert]

For purposes of the discussion we won't talk about environment effects on population. For infrastructure you're getting currently 7.5 citizens per point modified by your clinics and hospital. That's 7.5*1.08*1.06 or 8.586 citizens per infrastructure point you buy under your set. Under a 3BR with Fast Food and Fish it looks like this, 7.5*1.08*1.08*1.05*1.035*1.03*1.08*1.06 or 11.210. They're getting 2.624 more citizens to per point than you are. Meaning if they had spent the same amount of money on infrastructure as you they would even further ahead. To achieve your current citizen population under your set required you to make the 3k jump which increased your costs and upkeep quite a bit. They would be around 2400 infrastructure to have the same citizen count. Applying what you spent for the 800+ infrastructure difference between the two sets to achieve the same citizen count to the 3BR nation, they could be around 12-14 improvements ahead of you and not just the 8 swapping sets implies.

[steeldor]

Would that be better then the other benefits? Also, I'm not saying you're wrong, but where exactly did you find out that population boosters also increase citizens gained when buying infra?

[Count Rupert]

steeldor, on Jun 7 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

Would that be better then the other benefits? Also, I'm not saying you're wrong, but where exactly did you find out that population boosters also increase citizens gained when buying infra?

The game's Information Index states you get 7-10 citizens per point of infrastructure. But it's been over three years now since the game went into live beta so it's general knowledge that the base value per point is 7.5 citizens. The other modifers are based on their stated benefits. Clinics give 2%. Like improvements add together, different modifiers multiple. You have 4 Clinics that means you have 2% times 4 or 8% or for multiplication purposes 1.08. The hospital is worth 6% or 1.06, Wheat is 8% as is Fish. Cattle is 5%, Pigs, 3.5% and Sugar 3%. Cattle, Pigs, Wheat, Sugar and Spices are needed for Fast Food one of the main bonuses given by the 3BR.

The 3BR is better than your set as far as environment points go since your set minus the dirty resources it has to import is a net loss of one while the 3BR gains 1. That's not considering GRL which floats. When it's like it is right now at 5, your set comes out ahead by half a point. Your benefits for infrastructure purchase/upkeep reduction is 4.1% difference in the upkeep and 6.2% difference in the cost to purchase to your benefit. That's good, but to achieve the same citizen count over the 3BR set, you need to purchase 23% more infrastructure. So your purchase/upkeep costs at base are higher due to needing so much more infrastructure than the 3BR to achieve the same citizen count. The main benefit you get from your set is the military cost reductions on purchases/upkeep. Problem with that is a developing nation shouldn't be maintaining much of a military. As was mentioned your set is an excellent set for war. Even an older nation where those upkeep costs on infrastructure are insane and you need every point you can find. It's less beneficial at in the lower ranks. As was mentioned in another thread, you'd benefit from the AP, FJ, Construction, Steel set as well. Your resources may make that a more achieveable set that a 3BR.

You're fine with your set if you're able to continue to swap it out for a 3BR to collect and buy improvements and pay bills and buy infrastructure with your current set.

[steeldor]

Well, I switched out lead, oil, rubber, and lumber for fish, wheat, pigs, and cattle. I then threw away my 5 labor camps and bought 1 clinic, 5 banks, 3 stadiums, and 3 police headquarters. My net income went up 233%. I can increase it more by going back to my other set. I will then have -6 improvements (because the clinic will have let me get another improvement). My infra upkeep bills are 1.5M, so labor camp swapping is beneficial, but I don't have the money and if I delete the improvements I can't buy more at the moment. What do you suggest I do now?

[Count Rupert]

Wait another day with the new set and collect taxes again. That should give you the money to swap improvements. After the swap switch back to your original set and pay bills.

[steeldor]

Count Rupert, on Jun 7 2009, 10:16 PM, said:

Wait another day with the new set and collect taxes again. That should give you the money to swap improvements. After the swap switch back to your original set and pay bills.

I mean, if I collect tomorrow, I can improvement swap. Then if I went back to my other trade set, I would be stuck with 5 factories. Would I make more net income with -50% infra upkeep and -2 stadiums/-3 police headquarters and -5 happiness?

[phillip110]

After finally changing your resources, your current set is built more for population/income, which is fine if you have no intention of buying infra. My nation is an example of that, I don't plan on buying infra for a while, so I am maxing out my collections. But that would of course be stupid at 3300 infra where you are at. You will need to gain the resources necessary for construction if you want to help out with any future infra purchases. As Count Rupert stated (and I stated in our PMs), the 3BR set is not only excellent for income, it also gives you great infra reducing costs. It has been and still is the best balanced set in the game for growing nations. Your set would be the 3BR set plus fish and silver if I am not crazy.

What I learned quickly early on here in CN is that Count Rupert is pretty much always right and I don't have the time, energy or motivation to do all the math. I just listened to the guys who actually knew what they were talking about and my nation grew a LOT faster than the idiots with the 8 bonus set.

Oh, and now would be a great time to start buying tech rather than selling it, and you should be preparing to buy a wonder at the 3999 mark typically. It takes far too long to build a decent amount of tech and wonders, and they are necessary for nation growth and, well, war.

edit: this is the "lazy" way to do it. if you can deal with the pain of constantly swapping out resources to maximize infra purchasing and collections at different times, go for it. I guess I would rather die a horrible death than go through all that...

This post has been edited by phillip110: 08 June 2009 - 12:16 AM

[steeldor]

Which 3 resources is everyone talking about? Beer, Fast food, construction, silver, and fish seem the best to me.

[King Irwin]

phillip110, on Jun 8 2009, 02:12 AM, said:

What I learned quickly early on here in CN is that Count Rupert is pretty much always right and I don't have the time, energy or motivation to do all the math. I just listened to the guys who actually knew what they were talking about and my nation grew a LOT faster than the idiots with the 8 bonus set.

Yeah, take it from an "idot with the 8 bonus set" It is certainly inferior. I am phillip's camp of thinking that it's not worth the effort of resource swapping. However, if you are willing to put in the legwork and do things right, you WILL grow much faster...I'm just not willing to put in that effort. In fact, that is the sole reason I switched from a hodgepodge of trades for my 5BR set (and constantly replacing cancelled trades) to a stable circle with the inferior 8BR.

Like phillip said, the 3BR (fast food, beer, construction + fish and uranium, maybe...I actually can't recall exactly what's in some of these sets, so correct me if I'm wrong, folks) is widely considered the best for almost everyone if you don't swap. If you don't have those resources, the 5BR set is almost as good (steel, construction, autos, beer, asphalt + fish and uranium?).

Ideally, you could work out swapping such that it falls in line with your improvement swapping. Maximize all of the bill reduction resources during your sledding period. Then switch out temporarily for income/pop boosters to collect. Buy infra in large batches as needed and get a temporary trade for that just before your income trade as well (and swap in factories for this). To do this, you need a lot of patient and active trading partners though, but like I said, if you can make it work, it would be a huge advantage.