[admin]

I've noticed in Texas a growing anti-Washington sentiment for a long time but more so recently starting when Perry rejected the $550 million in federal economic stimulus money, The Mexican drug cartel violence spilling over into Texas and Washington so far refusing to do much of anything about it, Texas recently demanding that the federal government reduce taxes on Texas oil, The Texas Ag chief demanding the Cuban embargo be fully lifted, and so on. A little while ago I was watching CNN and apparently Rick Perry got so fired up about the tea parties today that he actually hinted at the idea of a Texas secession to reporters.

Quote

Later, answering news reporters' questions, Perry suggested Texans might at some point get so fed up they would want to secede from the union, though he said he sees no reason why Texas should do that.

"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."

Although a Texas secession is highly highly highly unlikely it does make for a good boiler room topic. If Texas, or any other state for that matter, were to secede in this 21 century what do you think would happen?

[Kenadian_2006]

Assuming the Union stayed together, I think they come crawling back eventually.

[shoe the fifth]

probably what happened the first time states tried to secede.

[Lamuella]

there's an inherent irony in someone wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about "the American people" while raising the possibility of, in essence, breaking the Union.

[Duncan King]

I get the feeling the US would declare war on Texas if it did that, and while Texans are very conservative, they are very pro American (or at least the Americans who comport with their views).

Them leaving would solve illegal immigration a bit though.

[Kenadian_2006]

Lamuella, on Apr 15 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

there's an inherent irony in someone wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about "the American people" while raising the possibility of, in essence, breaking the Union.

I've always found that contradiction perplexing when I hear CSA nationalists talk about American nationalism and other such things. How can you be nationalistic for a state that was treasonous to the country you also claim to be patriotic for? I mean, you'll hear them talk about violating the constitution and what makes America great. It's just, as you said, inherent irony.

[Action Hank]

I wouldn't mind if Texas left. It might help alleviate the stranglehold they have on the American textbook industry.

I mean, sure, we'd be dominated by California, but California educators are nowhere near as crazy left as Texas educators are crazy right. Plus the books will have some actual content, rather than just the bullcrap milquetoast compromise nonsense that they have these days.

[Loki Ire]

shoe the fifth, on Apr 15 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

probably what happened the first time states tried to secede.

Unlikely. Americans don't have the stomach for war in the era of 24-hr news and that's when it's thousands of miles away. The first time the American people see downtown Dallas being shelled or bombed, you'll see a march on Washington the likes of which you would have never before imagined. If a state broke away from the union, it'd be diplomatically isolated until either it cracked or others cracked and established relations.

Lamuella, on Apr 15 2009, 09:52 PM, said:

there's an inherent irony in someone wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about "the American people" while raising the possibility of, in essence, breaking the Union.

Kenadian_2006, on Apr 15 2009, 09:57 PM, said:

I've always found that contradiction perplexing when I hear CSA nationalists talk about American nationalism and other such things. How can you be nationalistic for a state that was treasonous to the country you also claim to be patriotic for? I mean, you'll hear them talk about violating the constitution and what makes America great. It's just, as you said, inherent irony.

I think because you guys aren't Americans, you don't share the unique perspective of Americans (especially southern Americans) on this issue. In fact, plenty of Americans don't get the perspective either. What it comes down to is that we're nationalist to a point, and that point is where the actions of the Federal government violate the ideals enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution beyond our individual ability to tolerate. Our ultimate loyalty lies not with a government or a nation, but with ideals of liberty and freedom. So long as our nation and our government support those ideals (or at least don't oppose them past our ability to tolerate it), we support the nation and its government.

Part of the confusion here comes from different perspectives on just what the US is exactly. If you think of it as a singular entity like Mexico, Canada, or France, then you won't get the mindset. If you think of it as it originally was - a group of sovereign states banding together for a common purpose - then you're halfway there. The other half comes when you can answer the question of what the logical thing to do is when the majority no longer support the common purpose that brought you together in the first place.

[KCToker]

We wouldn't need to bomb or shell anyone. The best they'd have is the National Guard. The National Guard swears an oath to both the President and the Governor, President first (I know, a Guardsman swore in during the same ceremony as me). President federalizes the Guard, they have to obey that (even if it goes against the wishes of the Governor).

All they'd have left is a rag-tag militia. We march in, most would surrender. Austin would fold and repeal the declaration of secession within a couple weeks.

[thedestro]

The states are so wrapped in interstate affairs that it would be just hell to secede.

Not to mention that every State in the union is better off, no need to worry about maintaining borders or any of that junk.

[edikroma]

First of all, Admin...whaaaa??!!!

Second... Texas wouldn't secede from the Union. Well, unless it joined the rest of the South in Civil War II. No one state would fare well as an independent country. And let's not forget that they would face quite a lot of resistance from the other 49.

[GTTofAK]

Ah I think the red states can take the blue states. The east and left coast are all service economies now I don't think they can sustain a war on their own, much less feed themselves.

[Mack Truck]

Lamuella, on Apr 16 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

there's an inherent irony in someone wrapping themselves in the flag and talking about "the American people" while raising the possibility of, in essence, breaking the Union.

It makes perfect sense for me to claim that the Australian government isn't 'Australian' enough (not that I would), just as it makes sense to be patriotic but dislike the federal government. It's just a government after all, not the country and its values incarnate.

[Mongrel]

Hmmm, we have LBJ and GW Bush to blame on Texas, seems they should have left the union about 50 years ago.

[Arkantos]

Secession is illegal by the Constitution. Supreme Court ruling in Texas v. White. /debate

This post has been edited by Arkantos: 15 April 2009 - 09:53 PM

[Lamuella]

Loki Ire, on Apr 15 2009, 11:15 PM, said:

Unlikely. Americans don't have the stomach for war in the era of 24-hr news and that's when it's thousands of miles away. The first time the American people see downtown Dallas being shelled or bombed, you'll see a march on Washington the likes of which you would have never before imagined. If a state broke away from the union, it'd be diplomatically isolated until either it cracked or others cracked and established relations.





I think because you guys aren't Americans, you don't share the unique perspective of Americans (especially southern Americans) on this issue. In fact, plenty of Americans don't get the perspective either. What it comes down to is that we're nationalist to a point, and that point is where the actions of the Federal government violate the ideals enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution beyond our individual ability to tolerate. Our ultimate loyalty lies not with a government or a nation, but with ideals of liberty and freedom. So long as our nation and our government support those ideals (or at least don't oppose them past our ability to tolerate it), we support the nation and its government.

Part of the confusion here comes from different perspectives on just what the US is exactly. If you think of it as a singular entity like Mexico, Canada, or France, then you won't get the mindset. If you think of it as it originally was - a group of sovereign states banding together for a common purpose - then you're halfway there. The other half comes when you can answer the question of what the logical thing to do is when the majority no longer support the common purpose that brought you together in the first place.

and yet these sentiments seem to only emerge when there is a democrat in office. Rick Perry wasn't making these pronouncements about breaking the union when Bush was in power.

I think there are people on the right (and I will stress not all of them) who identify "American" as meaning mainly identification with their political views. And that's a bit sad.

[mastab]

Texas won't leave. They are not capable of sustaining themselves, especially if the US responds to their secession with an embargo or war. If a state did leave, mutually assured destruction would make war very unlikely. But there's no way the federal government would sit and let a state get to the point of secession without doing anything to stop it.

GTTofAK, on Apr 15 2009, 08:34 PM, said:

Ah I think the red states can take the blue states. The east and left coast are all service economies now I don't think they can sustain a war on their own, much less feed themselves.

Where do you think all the money for those guns comes from? And who makes it possible for the red states to give less to the federal government than the federal government spends on them?

[Lord GVChamp]

Depends on the scenario. IMO, the US isn't anywhere near as regional as it was prior to the Civil War (it really did seem like two different countries back then). Today, though, a dissolution does seem like a remote possibility, and if Texas and other states seceded, the Union might not have the political capital necessary to actually bring back them into the fold.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Reminds you of Shattered Union, doesn't it? It's always us Texans that start it all...

mastab, on Apr 15 2009, 10:59 PM, said:

Texas won't leave. They are not capable of sustaining themselves, especially if the US responds to their secession with an embargo or war. If a state did leave, mutually assured destruction would make war very unlikely. But there's no way the federal government would sit and let a state get to the point of secession without doing anything to stop it.


Where do you think all the money for those guns comes from? And who makes it possible for the red states to give less to the federal government than the federal government spends on them?

Texas is probably one of the few states that could sustain itself. If the entire U.S. attacked us then of course we would lose, but I seriously doubt that would happen.


The money comes from oil and other natural resources created, manufactured, and distributed in Texas and exported out to other areas around the world. Texas is one of the wealthiest states, my brother. I don't know about the rest of the south or the midwest but Texas certainly has a lot of wealth. California could probably sustain itself too... it is relatively big and has a decent amount of resources and industries and wealth in general. Plus you got Ahnold, all we got is that douchebag Rick Perry.

This post has been edited by Dennis Von Bremen: 15 April 2009 - 10:10 PM

[Fokker Aeroplanbau]

Go Texas! Give them hell!