Cyber Nations Forums: Who wants Universal Healthcare? - Cyber Nations Forums

Jump to content


  • (13 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Who wants Universal Healthcare? you might be surprised Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Vaal Satori 

  • Eternity beckons
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,103
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:Arkanodia
  • Alliance Name:TPMA

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:19 AM

http://www.reuters.c...E52C4VZ20090313

Quote

U.S. business leaders urged lawmakers on Thursday to act quickly on healthcare reform, saying American companies were losing out to other countries with cheaper healthcare and healthier workers.

The Business Roundtable, which represents the largest U.S. corporations, released a study showing that for every $100 spent in the United States on healthcare, a group of five leading economic competitors -- Canada, Japan, Germany, the United Kingdom and France -- spend about 63 cents.

"While today's economic challenges span the globe, companies in other countries may be better able to weather the storm in part because the value that their healthcare systems deliver," Business Roundtable Chairman Harold McGraw told reporters in a telephone conference. McGraw is chairman, president and chief executive of The McGraw-Hill Companies.

U.S. President Barack Obama has made reforming the expensive and inefficient U.S. healthcare system one of his top priorities and Democratic leaders in Congress hope to get a bill to him by the end of the year.

The United States spends more on healthcare than any other country, but some 46 million Americans are still uninsured.

Ivan Seidenberg, chairman and chief executive of Verizon Communications, said an overhaul of the U.S. healthcare system "should have been done yesterday."

The United States, where most workers get healthcare insurance through their employers, faces an even bigger competitive disadvantage against rising economic powers Brazil, India and China, the Business Roundtable study said.

It said those countries spend about 15 cents on healthcare for every dollar spent in America.


It seems the only ones who don't want healthcare reform to go through are libertarians and the health insurance industry. Most of the rest of America, both rich and poor, are ready to go. The poor are in favor because they face financial ruin if they get sick, and the rich are in favor because they're the ones currently footing the bill for everyone else's coverage. With cheaper healthcare costs paid for through taxes instead of through corporate profits, just about everyone would be better off, including industrialists and investors. It's too bad this issue must now take a back seat to the more pressing concerns we are facing though.

#2 User is offline   Subtleknifewielder 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 21,668
  • Joined: 01-April 08
  • Nation Name:Promised Land
  • Alliance Name:CoJ Applicant
  • CN:TE Nation Name:Land of Refuge
  • CN:TE Alliance Name:Orbit Black

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:33 AM

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...

#3 User is offline   Loki Ire 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,361
  • Joined: 28-November 07
  • Nation Name:Loki Imperium
  • Alliance Name:Ubercon

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:37 AM

View PostSubtleknifewielder, on Mar 26 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...


No, ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place who has had a serious illness requiring major procedures how effective it really is.

When you ask people who haven't had major health issues, they generally believe everything's working great. It's when you talk to the people who've had to wait months on end for surgeries and other procedures, or when you talk to the people who couldn't wait and who instead flew to India or another country to get the work done that you find the worst of the problems.

Let's also remember the level of taxation in such nations. The UK, for instance, is hitting its citizens with income taxes plus corporate taxes (paid for by individuals in higher prices) plus VAT plus a whole host of other lesser taxes.

#4 User is offline   Smallfrog 

  • A frog that is smaller than usual.
  • PipPipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 8,394
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:smallfrog
  • Alliance Name:FEAR......be afraid

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:37 AM

View PostSubtleknifewielder, on Mar 26 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...

Pretty well. It could be better, but it could be allot worse. More to the point, I don't know anyone who is in debt due to being ill.

Also, the claim that it just means more taxes is wrong. The US government already spends the same percentage of national income as the UK on healthcare, so the same amount of my tax goes on healthcare as your's, and I don't have to pay insurance ontop of that.

#5 User is offline   canfor25 

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 16
  • Joined: 26-January 09
  • Nation Name:Snipers Retreat
  • Alliance Name:The Phoenix Federation

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:40 AM

View PostSubtleknifewielder, on Mar 26 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...



I am a citizen of such a nation, Canada has had universal health care for a while. Now, we face 8 hours in Emergency waiting to get treated, for many injuries, becuase the health care system doesn't pay enough doctors to staff our emergency rooms.

Only what you "need" is covered, if you need a cast, you can get it, if you want crutches, pay for them. Doctor's notes, pay for them, Full Physicals for work etc. Pay for them. Some medications are covered, the basics, Cancer treatment and stuff can still make you bankrupt, if you want top of the line medications.

If universal healthcare, means you want to wait 3 months for a CT scan, or 4 months for a MRI, unless you are a Professional Team ( that's another story, seems they can get MRI's for the smallest thing, when they want ) then come join the party. UHC isn't all that it's cracked up to be, but I was in hospital for 14 days about a year ago, and walked away with only a $85 bill. So, it has it's upsides too.

Canfor

#6 User is offline   Vaal Satori 

  • Eternity beckons
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,103
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:Arkanodia
  • Alliance Name:TPMA

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:46 AM

View PostSubtleknifewielder, on Mar 26 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...


What other options do we have? Businesses are tired of having to pay for their employees' healthcare costs, and it makes them less competitive. Our country also won't be able to handle this ballooning of the amount we pay for healthcare if it keeps going as it has been. We need a cheaper alternative.

View Postcanfor25, on Mar 26 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

I am a citizen of such a nation, Canada has had universal health care for a while. Now, we face 8 hours in Emergency waiting to get treated, for many injuries, becuase the health care system doesn't pay enough doctors to staff our emergency rooms.


I don't think that has much to do with healthcare being nationalized. I've been to the Emergency Room of Duke University Medical Center multiple times. It's one of the best privately run hospitals in the world, but ER wait times are typically 5-7 hours. The same is true of the University of North Carolina Hospital's ER 12 miles away. That's just the way Emergency Rooms are.

This post has been edited by Vaal Satori: 26 March 2009 - 11:54 AM


#7 User is offline   Kenadian_2006 

  • Mr. Postcount
  • PipPipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 41,875
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Nation Name:Kenadia
  • Alliance Name:GGA

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:50 AM

View Postcanfor25, on Mar 26 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

I am a citizen of such a nation, Canada has had universal health care for a while. Now, we face 8 hours in Emergency waiting to get treated, for many injuries, becuase the health care system doesn't pay enough doctors to staff our emergency rooms.

Only what you "need" is covered, if you need a cast, you can get it, if you want crutches, pay for them. Doctor's notes, pay for them, Full Physicals for work etc. Pay for them. Some medications are covered, the basics, Cancer treatment and stuff can still make you bankrupt, if you want top of the line medications.

If universal healthcare, means you want to wait 3 months for a CT scan, or 4 months for a MRI, unless you are a Professional Team ( that's another story, seems they can get MRI's for the smallest thing, when they want ) then come join the party. UHC isn't all that it's cracked up to be, but I was in hospital for 14 days about a year ago, and walked away with only a $85 bill. So, it has it's upsides too.

Canfor


That has less to do with what our healthcare is founded in and more with the fact that in many provinces, it is simply underfunded or understaffed. In Ontario, Bob Rae's government put that asinine cap on med school applicants which really screwed us over.

#8 User is offline   Loki Ire 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,361
  • Joined: 28-November 07
  • Nation Name:Loki Imperium
  • Alliance Name:Ubercon

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:51 AM

View PostVaal Satori, on Mar 26 2009, 12:51 PM, said:

I don't think that has much to do with healthcare being nationalized. I've been to the Emergency Room of Duke University Medical Center multiple times. It's one of the best privately run hospitals in the world, but ER wait times are typically 5-7 hours. The same is true of the University of North Carolina Hospital's ER 12 miles away. That's just the way Emergency Rooms are.


I've been to ERs in multiple hospitals in Virginia, Maryland, and New Jersey for myself, friends, and family. I've never seen an ER wait time more than an hour and that was for minor issues (where more serious things were moved ahead as they should be). When I had a serious case of pneumonia a few years ago and reported trouble breathing, I barely made it to a chair after signing in before they called me back.

I don't know where people get these long waiting times from unless they're in an area with a huge amount of uninsureds and illegal aliens or something. Maybe all the hospitals in VA, MD, and NJ are just that amazing? I doubt it.

#9 User is offline   Comrade Craig 

  • General Secretary, The Int'l
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Nation Name:Free Left Coast
  • Alliance Name:The International

Posted 26 March 2009 - 11:55 AM

Of course there is no debate about whether individuals should pay for their own defense. No sane person argues that, if a person wants to avoid enemy invasion, they should be forced to buy their own tanks and machine guns. No sane person calls Joe Redneck a socialist for "supporting his troops" (with taxes) -- and yet whenever we talk about creating a socially-supported defense system against health problems, the controversy over "communism" and "socialism" erupts. Witness the propaganda system of the status quo in all its glory.

-Craig

#10 User is offline   deja 

  • 100% forum warn level.
  • PipPipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Banned - Appeal Denied
  • Posts: 2,645
  • Joined: 06-September 07
  • Nation Name:dejarue
  • Alliance Name:Commonwealth of Sovereign Nations

Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:07 PM

This will end badly.

#11 User is offline   Comrade Craig 

  • General Secretary, The Int'l
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 659
  • Joined: 05-September 07
  • Nation Name:Free Left Coast
  • Alliance Name:The International

Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:16 PM

View Postdeja, on Mar 26 2009, 11:12 AM, said:

This will end badly.


Whenever I get involved, things always end badly. It's what I do.

-Craig

#12 User is offline   Loki Ire 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,361
  • Joined: 28-November 07
  • Nation Name:Loki Imperium
  • Alliance Name:Ubercon

Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:17 PM

View PostComrade Craig, on Mar 26 2009, 01:00 PM, said:

Of course there is no debate about whether individuals should pay for their own defense. No sane person argues that, if a person wants to avoid enemy invasion, they should be forced to buy their own tanks and machine guns. No sane person calls Joe Redneck a socialist for "supporting his troops" (with taxes) -- and yet whenever we talk about creating a socially-supported defense system against health problems, the controversy over "communism" and "socialism" erupts. Witness the propaganda system of the status quo in all its glory.

-Craig


Make medical school dirt cheap, make state-of-the-art medical equipment dirt cheap, and make doctors and nurses work for dirt cheap and such a system at least becomes feasible.

My objection isn't simply that "oh it's Socialism! it's Socialism!", but rather that it results in higher overall taxation, a strong potential for my government overriding my doctor, "cookbook" medicine, doctors fleeing the system (as they've done in Canada), and a rationing of healthcare.

What we have now is far from perfect, but I don't think breaking the whole thing in different ways is a smart solution.

#13 User is offline   Neboe 

  • Knight IX
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 271
  • Joined: 04-September 07
  • Nation Name:Neboe
  • Alliance Name:The Order of the Black Rose

Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:18 PM

Sutdies Show US Wait Times Getting Longer

Haven't we been through the whole issue of personal experience as evidence on this forum before? I could regail you with my own nightmare of suffering nearly 10 hours of kidney stone pain waiting in a US ER, along side uninsured children with colds, but that will not further the discussion.

While it is true that the average wait times cited in this article (attributed to various studies) are in the neighborhood of less than an hour, it still shows that the wait times are climbing exponentially. The upward trend is projected to get worse as the number of uninsured, or underinsured grows. Also worthy of note are the recent drop in US hospitals even offering Emergency Room service because it is fiscally a drain on the hospital's profitability.

The question being discussed is about access to care. At some point the people of this country and our elected officials have to determine if access to basic healthcare is a right of citizenship, or is it a privilage?

#14 User is offline   Smallfrog 

  • A frog that is smaller than usual.
  • PipPipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 8,394
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:smallfrog
  • Alliance Name:FEAR......be afraid

Posted 26 March 2009 - 12:24 PM

View PostLoki Ire, on Mar 26 2009, 06:23 PM, said:

Make medical school dirt cheap, make state-of-the-art medical equipment dirt cheap, and make doctors and nurses work for dirt cheap and such a system at least becomes feasible.

My objection isn't simply that "oh it's Socialism! it's Socialism!", but rather that it results in higher overall taxation, a strong potential for my government overriding my doctor, "cookbook" medicine, doctors fleeing the system (as they've done in Canada), and a rationing of healthcare.

What we have now is far from perfect, but I don't think breaking the whole thing in different ways is a smart solution.

The US system is so badly broken that your not saving money on taxes, so argueing against it on tax grounds is rediculous.

#15 User is offline   Loki Ire 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,361
  • Joined: 28-November 07
  • Nation Name:Loki Imperium
  • Alliance Name:Ubercon

Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:00 PM

View PostSmallfrog, on Mar 26 2009, 01:29 PM, said:

The US system is so badly broken that your not saving money on taxes, so argueing against it on tax grounds is rediculous.


Our government is handling what part of the healthcare system it does control so poorly that the only solution is to give it total control?

Yeah, umm, no thanks. Maybe if Medicare and Medicaid weren't already so poorly run and ridiculously expensive, people in this country would consider giving up their private health insurance. As it is, the insured of this country overwhelmingly do not want to give up that coverage, even when they hate their provider.

#16 User is offline   Kolia Farvazov 

  • Banned In-Game
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Banned - Appeal Denied
  • Posts: 148
  • Joined: 24-March 09
  • Nation Name:Novaya Rus
  • Alliance Name:Global Alliance and Treaty Organization

Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:03 PM

I for one think universal healthcare is not only good and just, but essential.

A country with free healthcare and free education is on it's way to utopia...

#17 User is offline   Loki Ire 

  • Advanced Member
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 5,361
  • Joined: 28-November 07
  • Nation Name:Loki Imperium
  • Alliance Name:Ubercon

Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:16 PM

View PostKolia Farvazov, on Mar 26 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

I for one think universal healthcare is not only good and just, but essential.

A country with free healthcare and free education is on it's way to utopia...


See, when you call it "free" healthcare and "free" education, that's dishonest.

Neither is free; someone is paying for them, and often times paying quite a bit.

#18 User is offline   Vaal Satori 

  • Eternity beckons
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,103
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:Arkanodia
  • Alliance Name:TPMA

Posted 26 March 2009 - 01:53 PM

View PostLoki Ire, on Mar 26 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

Make medical school dirt cheap, make state-of-the-art medical equipment dirt cheap, and make doctors and nurses work for dirt cheap and such a system at least becomes feasible.

My objection isn't simply that "oh it's Socialism! it's Socialism!", but rather that it results in higher overall taxation, a strong potential for my government overriding my doctor, "cookbook" medicine, doctors fleeing the system (as they've done in Canada), and a rationing of healthcare.

What we have now is far from perfect, but I don't think breaking the whole thing in different ways is a smart solution.


Where are doctors going to flee to though? The US is the only sizable first world nation that still has a mostly private healthcare system. Most doctors turn up their noses at the prospect of working in a third world nation.

View PostLoki Ire, on Mar 26 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

Our government is handling what part of the healthcare system it does control so poorly that the only solution is to give it total control?

Yeah, umm, no thanks. Maybe if Medicare and Medicaid weren't already so poorly run and ridiculously expensive, people in this country would consider giving up their private health insurance. As it is, the insured of this country overwhelmingly do not want to give up that coverage, even when they hate their provider.


Not according to polls. Two-thirds of Americans are in favor of the government expanding healthcare to cover everyone. This more recent poll indicates that twice as many people are in favor of Universal Healthcare as are opposed. Even a majority of Republicans have been in favor of Universal Healthcare.

This post has been edited by Vaal Satori: 26 March 2009 - 01:58 PM


#19 User is offline   deja 

  • 100% forum warn level.
  • PipPipPip
  • View blog
  • Group: Banned - Appeal Denied
  • Posts: 2,645
  • Joined: 06-September 07
  • Nation Name:dejarue
  • Alliance Name:Commonwealth of Sovereign Nations

Posted 26 March 2009 - 02:06 PM

View PostKolia Farvazov, on Mar 26 2009, 07:08 PM, said:

I for one think universal healthcare is not only good and just, but essential.

A country with free healthcare and free education is on it's way to utopia...


Utopia? What the hell?

Ok, I still want to live in reality. So... I disagree with your reasoning. Not to mention "universal healthcare" does NOT mean "free healthcare".

But it's good to see why people are arguing for it. "I just want someone else to pay for it!"

#20 User is offline   Eagare the Alenthin 

  • You want to know what I'm laughing about?
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 4,936
  • Joined: 03-September 07
  • Nation Name:Eschenil
  • Alliance Name:Cult of Richard

Posted 26 March 2009 - 02:12 PM

View PostSubtleknifewielder, on Mar 26 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

Universal healthcare sounds great in theory...but that just means more taxes, really.

And ask a citizen of a nation with such a program in place to see how effective it really is...

I love it. Might I say, Canada, for the win?

  • (13 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users