[Tom Litler]

In light of the recent controversies surrounding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I'm interested on people's opinions on the topic of whether or not Israel has the right to exist. Let me begin by saying that I myself do not believe that it does have such a right and before the left-wing liberals label me as an "anti-Semite" let me try to explain why.

It has been justified that Israel is the promised land of the Jews which they had inhabited since times past. It is a holy land written of in the Torah. That is true. Israel existed on what is now Palestinian territory until the Romans destroyed it... in 70 CE. Following the same logic, if we were to grant ethnicities land on the basis of historical ownership then I suppose no one will object when Italy starts conquering European nations or when the Russian Slavs invade Eastern Europe and Central Asia. In fact, forget Russia, let the Mongols have it along with Asia! Basically, what I'm trying to say is that to argue that Israel belongs to the Jewish people because of some historical ties is a moot point.

After the solo on the littlest violin, people usually pull out the littlest cello when they simply state that the Jews deserve a state because "they've been through enough." This leads me only to conclude that the state of Israel exists purely on the merit of being an outlet for white man's guilt. After centuries of what has been considered poor treatment of Jews in Europe, culminating in the Second World War, the so called "great" European allied powers resolved to do what the National Socialists intended to do before the Holocaust: to deport the Jews from Europe to a nation of their own. This is all well and good but at whose expense? The Palestinians? Why should they be the ones toe bear what the Europeans didn't want? Where did they sign the contract to surrender their land to European Jewry? Were they even invited to the United Nations meetings that took place (actually, I think they might have been... where they rejected the resolution).

Why should the Palestinians now bear the husk of Europe's guilt? Rather than burdening an entire peoples, Israel should be disarmed and the state dismantled, and a new state formed by the Palestinian peoples including whichever Jews may remain there. I cannot offer any solution to the relationship between the Jewish people and the rest of the world but I can say with some certainty that the state of Israel offers no such solution.

[Sunake]

Through beating all comers in war I believe Israel has earned the right to exist.

[freakwars]

I think that Israel should be moved to an artificial island in the middle of the pacific, alongwith all their holy temples and stuff

[Strykewolf]

Sunake, on Jan 13 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Through beating all comers in war I believe Israel has earned the right to exist.

^^ Ayups.

[Tom Litler]

Sunake, on Jan 14 2009, 02:08 AM, said:

Through beating all comers in war I believe Israel has earned the right to exist.

It's no contest when they have access to funds from Western "democracies" including the USA with which they purchase all the latest military equipment while Hamas and the PLO have nothing but street arms and AK-47s filled with sand.

And if that's not enough, there are always US air strikes.

[shoe the fifth]

Sunake, on Jan 14 2009, 02:08 AM, said:

Through beating all comers in war I believe Israel has earned the right to exist.

1. this
2. what would you propose the world do with millions of displaced jews after WW2? the fact that no country would take them was one of the major factors in creating a state for them.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Null Vote. I do not believe a nation solely for Jews should exist, however I am ok with a united Palestine/Israel regardless of the name. But I am not in favor of having a separate Israeli and Palestinian state, there should at least be some sort of movement for unification... though first the conflict itself needs to end, of course... but ideally for me I don't care about the name but I do believe that a state in that area has the "right" to exist as any other state does. But I am against the Palestinians and Israelis constantly fighting, but as President Bush said "I don't have a magic wand" (or something like that)... thank god, could you imagine what he would do with a magic wand? :lol:


Also, it's funny that the OP claims leftist liberals are for Israel when people like Bill O'Reilly say that Israel is great and that Leftists are evil and want to destroy Israel. Clearly Bill is a Radical Left wing Liberal.

shoe the fifth, on Jan 13 2009, 07:14 PM, said:

1. this
2. what would you propose the world do with millions of displaced jews after WW2? the fact that no country would take them was one of the major factors in creating a state for them.

Send em to America, America would take them in.

This post has been edited by Dennis Von Bremen: 13 January 2009 - 07:15 PM

[Strykewolf]

Tom Litler, on Jan 13 2009, 04:13 PM, said:

It's no contest when they have access to funds from Western "democracies" including the USA with which they purchase all the latest military equipment while Hamas and the PLO have nothing but street arms and AK-47s filled with sand.

And if that's not enough, there are always US air strikes.

mmmhmmm...and how many nations have attacked them with backing from Moscow?

[Sunake]

Tom Litler, on Jan 14 2009, 02:13 AM, said:

It's no contest when they have access to funds from Western "democracies" including the USA with which they purchase all the latest military equipment while Hamas and the PLO have nothing but street arms and AK-47s filled with sand.

And if that's not enough, there are always US air strikes.

Meanwhile more successful insurgencies have disrupted governments with the same equipment or less in other parts of the world.

[Margrave]

They have a right to exist innasmuch as I say they do; meaning, I and like-minded Americans (In political power, or members of the military) Love/Swear to defend Israel. America is a Christian country, even when it acts unfaithful; it is still loyal to the People Chosen by God.

[Tom Litler]

shoe the fifth, on Jan 14 2009, 02:14 AM, said:

1. this
2. what would you propose the world do with millions of displaced jews after WW2? the fact that no country would take them was one of the major factors in creating a state for them.

A state in a different country that didn't want them... Basically, Israel is forced. The only reason it ever really came into existence was that the Palestinians couldn't really do anything about it, having been a colony at the time.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Margrave, on Jan 13 2009, 07:16 PM, said:

They have a right to exist innasmuch as I say they do; meaning, I and like-minded Americans (In political power, or members of the military) Love/Swear to defend Israel. America is a Christian country, even when it acts unfaithful; it is still loyal to the People Chosen by God.

So... the reason you support Israel is because you believe they are chosen by God? :lol:

[Sal Paradise]

I don't think Israel had a right to exist when it was created. Now is another situation altogether.

[shoe the fifth]

Tom Litler, on Jan 14 2009, 02:16 AM, said:

A state in a different country that didn't want them... Basically, Israel is forced. The only reason it ever really came into existence was that the Palestinians couldn't really do anything about it, having been a colony at the time.

that's still not offering up a solution. while isreal might not have been the best solution, it did solve the problem they were looking to solve at the time.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Sal Paradise, on Jan 13 2009, 07:19 PM, said:

I don't think Israel had a right to exist when it was created. Now is another situation altogether.

Basically how I see it. In the beginning it really didn't have that much reason for existence, but nowadays how would you destroy it? Kill all Israelis? That's !@#$@#$ insane!

[Portugal]

Tom Litler, on Jan 14 2009, 01:16 AM, said:

A state in a different country that didn't want them... Basically, Israel is forced. The only reason it ever really came into existence was that the Palestinians couldn't really do anything about it, having been a colony at the time.

By those ideas, all nations today do not have the right to exist. How about the american nations, who were created thanks to to spanish, portuguese, british and french colonialism at the expense of millions of natives? Or those nations themselves in Europe, which took their lands from anglo-saxons, romans, muslims, etc. Or in Israel itself, the land was originally taken by the muslims by force. And before that, by the romans.

All nations today exist thanks to the bloodsheds of yesterday, of one ethnic group invading and expelling another ethnic group. And someday, they will fall, being replaced by other nations, by other people, and those too will fall, and this circle will continue forever until either mankind goes extinct or mankind unites into one nation. Saying X or Z has no right to exist because they did the same as every other nation over the course of history is pretty fail. No nation will exist forever, no ethnic group will remain in the same spot forever. Deal with it.

[Tom Litler]

Dennis Von Bremen, on Jan 14 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

Basically how I see it. In the beginning it really didn't have that much reason for existence, but nowadays how would you destroy it? Kill all Israelis? That's !@#$@#$ insane!

Destroy the Jewish state. Let the Palestinians have control of the state and the military.

Before the creation of Israel Jews and Arabs lived together in harmony. Right now, however, we see the Arab majority being crushed by the Israeli minority. It is apartheid all over again.

[Lamuella]

oh great, a poll with two options, neither of which works for me.

There's no such thing as a "right to exist" for a country.

[Sunake]

Tom Litler, on Jan 14 2009, 02:24 AM, said:

Destroy the Jewish state. Let the Palestinians have control of the state and the military.

Before the creation of Israel Jews and Arabs lived together in harmony. Right now, however, we see the Arab majority being crushed by the Israeli minority. It is apartheid all over again.

Except for the fact that now most countries in the region are willing to accept that Israel is there and a presence in the region and be more hospitable towards it.

[Lamuella]

Sunake, on Jan 13 2009, 08:26 PM, said:

Except for the fact that now most countries in the region are willing to accept that Israel is there and a presence in the region and be more hospitable towards it.

you wouldn't know that, listening to the American media. They like portraying Israel as a plucky little chap fighting for his right to survive against HUGE EVIL HULKING ARABS