[Stormcrow]

Watch as the miracle of Moderation works its wonders!


Here is what we are going to do, gentlemen: All the concerned parties (Sumeragi, Triyun, Tahoe) are going to come here and give a public statement slash defense of what they are doing. I'll listen, consider, consult the ancient prophecies, and presto-chango, we'll get a ruling from Moderating Staff.


Good to go? Alright, lets hear it!

[Sumeragi]

This mess started with this post: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1080740


I was in suspension during the RP due to. one of my RPs. As you can see, Tahoe and others rammed through their RPs without giving me a chance to respond, bordering on godmoding.


Trying to be nice, I just got over the "godmoding", and went on with the RP with the following threads.

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41695&hl=

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41980&hl=


It was going fine for awhile, but then this incident happened: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1095092


It touched off a whole lot of arguing ranging from physics to propaganda, while Tahoe deliberately ignored my apology after he demanded it. He confirmed in #CNRP that he was purposely ignoring me IC (unfortuantely I don't have the logs).



In short, due to the various problems stretching from godmoding to deliberate ignorance. I believe the whole protest RP should be unrecognized, as HK47 was considering.

This post has been edited by Sumeragi: 10 December 2008 - 08:27 PM

[Sargun]

Wait, wait, wait - we're going to talk this out? IMPOSSIBLE!

Anyway, my say in this comes later, so just saying so you won't think I'm butting in later for no reason.

[Stormcrow]

I'm waiting for Tahoe to post. Personally, I agree with him in the limited context: After looking at the tech scales, I certainly don't think you have the ability to fire or maintain many/most/nearly any of those torpedos. As well, I don't see sufficient RP acting out those torpedo attacks. However, pause comma: Sumeragi makes a good case for herself. I was aware that HK was considering voiding some things here, and the barrelling through of RPs does indeed "Border", perhaps even crosses into, godmodding. I don't like it, and I'm considering issuing a retroactive "No U" that starts this back at square one, before our beloved continuity flew into tiny pieces. Give me a reason to keep this going; if it could be worked out nicely, I would like it much more than having to ham-handedly re-write/mod this whole thing.

[Sumeragi]

Stormcrow, on Dec 11 2008, 11:39 AM, said:

I'm waiting for Tahoe to post. Personally, I agree with him in the limited context: After looking at the tech scales, I certainly don't think you have the ability to fire or maintain many/most/nearly any of those torpedos.

I've already RPed the development (with Nordland) of the torpedoes. The official name is Kraken/Kurosame, to show that it was a joint development. Plus, I have a automatic factory making the torpedoes, and they had already been deployed without protest.

[croutonzz]

Sumeragi, on Dec 10 2008, 09:24 PM, said:

He confirmed in #CNRP that he was purposely ignoring me IC (unfortuantely I don't have the logs).

I can vouch for this...

[Emperor Mudd]

Quote

This mess started with this post: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1080740

Yes it did. I viewed it as a final nail in the coffin for my desire to start a war with you. There have been numerous incidents IC, which I won't go into as they aren't particularly relevant, which have lead me to this conclusion. I viewed this act as the most egregious of them all and decided then to start a war.

Quote

I was in suspension during the RP due to. one of my RPs. As you can see, Tahoe and others rammed through their RPs without giving me a chance to respond, bordering on godmoding.

I had already at this point decided to engineer a CB to force us into a war. While I agree that forcing through RP's during your ban was not a good idea, I didn't feel that you being able to post would have changed anything since by this point I was already going to go to war no matter what. Regardless though, there is nothing major that happened during your ban. I believe that the ships I had penetrating your waters continued on their merry course and did nothing else. It didn't affect the outcome of any RP in the slightest, so cannot be considered a godmod, just a bad decision.

Quote

Trying to be nice, I just got over the "godmoding", and went on with the RP with the following threads.

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41695&hl=

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41980&hl=

The first link: Ultimatim, only convinced me more that I was going to fight. Demanding things from me, while expected, didn't assauge my thirst for blood in the slightest. As I stated in the thread.

The second link was a change to your policy. As I stated in the thread, I didn't view it as an improvement at all, just an attempt to get public opinion on your side.

Neither affected the outcome of what was ultimately to come: war. I was going to war no matter what.

Quote

It was going fine for awhile, but then this incident happened: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1095092

It touched off a whole lot of arguing ranging from physics to propaganda, while Tahoe deliberately ignored my apology after he demanded it. He confirmed in #CNRP that he was purposely ignoring me IC (unfortuantely I don't have the logs).

I don't feel it is relevant at all. Yes Pravus Ingruo and I engineered an act that would give us a CB, knowing that there would be arguing about its legitimacy. However, I never took part in that OOC arguement, as it wouldn't change anything. Naboo asserted initially that it was impossible to know if it was a torpedo, then gave evidence that a torpedo DID strike the civilian ship, giving us IC reasons to start a war.

I did in fact purposely ignore you IC, which has no bearing on this at all. I wanted to ignore you so I did. I didn't feel your apology was worth my time, even though I had previously demanded it (to look diplomatic albeit). Furthermore, the apology wasn't going to convince me not to fight.

I conclusion, I don't understand why this is a big deal at all. She is complaining that we wanted a war with her and so constructed one. Everything I said IC was an attempt to start a war, which is perfectly legitimate. I was going to go to war with her no matter what happened, which is also legitimate.

I didn't want to arbitrarily declare war, so I tried to be nice and RP a reason out, with the full knowledge we were going to war in the future. This seems to me nothing more than an attempt to get out an an IC act with OOC acts.

Should I have kept RPing while Sumeragi was banned. Probably not. It wasn't a big deal though since nothing happened during that ban that had any affect on the outcome of RP. It didn't make me not fight her, and I certainly didn't fight her during that ban. It did not affect us coming to this war.

[Firestorm]

I remember DMing a group of 4 people that nearly ended up in a drunken fist fight over allegations of metagaming/god modding. Good times! Good luck working this out. Hopefully the rp can go on with a few minor modifications of attitudes and game play.

[Sumeragi]

Emperor Mudd, on Dec 11 2008, 11:46 AM, said:

Should I have kept RPing while Sumeragi was banned. Probably not. It wasn't a big deal though since nothing happened during that ban that had any affect on the outcome of RP. It didn't make me not fight her, and I certainly didn't fight her during that ban. It did not affect us coming to this war.

I would have stopped your ships at the border, ensuring the whole protest near the Imperial Homeland would never had happened. In short, you deliberately forced the issue on me by ramming through actions that would have been stopped if I was active.

[Emperor Mudd]

Sumeragi, on Dec 10 2008, 06:48 PM, said:

I would have stopped your ships at the border, ensuring the whole protest near the Imperial Homeland would never had happened. In short, you deliberately forced the issue on me by ramming through actions that would have been stopped if I was active.

I would have used that as a CB.

It was coming either way. Me having my ships in your waters just meant the actual CB was for a different reason than it would have otherwise. I was going to force a war no matter what, you being active wasn't going to change that.

This post has been edited by Emperor Mudd: 10 December 2008 - 08:51 PM

[Mogar]

Sumeragi, on Dec 10 2008, 09:48 PM, said:

I would have stopped your ships at the border, ensuring the whole protest near the Imperial Homeland would never had happened. In short, you deliberately forced the issue on me by ramming through actions that would have been stopped if I was active.

with what magical navy would you have stopped his ships out of curiosity?

[Triyun]

Sumeragi, on Dec 11 2008, 02:24 AM, said:

This mess started with this post: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1080740


I was in suspension during the RP due to. one of my RPs. As you can see, Tahoe and others rammed through their RPs without giving me a chance to respond, bordering on godmoding.

I do not see how this is really an issue other than Tahoe acting in a way that you disagreed with. I think the time for Sumeragi to object to this should of been right when she got back rather she allowed it to escalate. I was informed by people on her "team" that they expected to win a fight and as such, my suspicion is they didn't object then (I can PM you this log if you like Storm). It would require a lot of roll backs to undo this.

Furthermore the RP in question was an issue of Tahoe sending ships through Sumeragi's waters due to Sumeragi banning traffic though those waters. Had Sumeragi been here, what could she have done differently that she didn't have an option too when she returned. The three as far as I see would be to let the ships pass through, take military action against the ships, or demand a fine be paid. She was able to offer that a fine be paid and Tahoe refused. She could have chosen the other two being banned or not. I do not think that her presence really would have done anything but accelerate a war unless she backed down entirely, which again she could have done by just letting the ships go.

Quote

Trying to be nice, I just got over the "godmoding", and went on with the RP with the following threads.

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41695&hl=

http://forums.cybern...s...c=41980&hl=


It was going fine for awhile, but then this incident happened: http://forums.cybern...s...t&p=1095092


It touched off a whole lot of arguing ranging from physics to propaganda, while Tahoe deliberately ignored my apology after he demanded it. He confirmed in #CNRP that he was purposely ignoring me IC (unfortuantely I don't have the logs).

There is nothing wrong with ignoring someone purposefully IC if you want to go to war with that person. I think the physics piece of the argument did get out of hand, but there have been plenty of arguments like that in real life history. Gulf of Tonkin and the explosion on the Maine come to mind. It would be an iffy casus belli, but the Moderation should not be used to stop the more aggressive players from attacking others. There are more warlike nations in the world, it is up to the players to determine who wins by outmanuvering each other diplomatically and too some extent militarily (though I feel this needs to be more closely watched to avoid tech debateS). I feel that it would be limiting Tahoe's ability to play a more antagonistic character if one were too say he lacked the right to ignore someones apology IC.

Quote

In short, due to the various problems stretching from godmoding to deliberate ignorance. I believe the whole protest RP should be unrecognized, as HK47 was considering.

See here we see an inconsistency in the position. Where Sumeragi wishes to move back to is to before he was in the worst position politically. I really think the best solution here is for the mods to call the torpedo incident controversial similar to the real life ones I speculated about above. Then they can allow the in game political consequences to occur as they may.

What I would like to bring up though is this defense system Sumeragi claims to have. As I understand it a general rule of thumb is whoever has the best stats wins the war ultimately. Sumeragi is setting it up so a weapon systems which there is no equivalent in game can be declared to exist by anyone. This overrules the advantages people have in game.

I view this as incredibly problematic because it give a perverse incentive for other players to declare similar systems. And pretty soon your job is harder because you will be forced to make judgement calls on whatever players dream up, versus what their nation is realistically capable of having. We are fortunate in cybernations to have a in game way of measuring a nations capability so it isn't left to speculation of the player. A system such as the one which Sumeragi proposes undermines this very idea, and would in my mind lead to the further degradation of this forum to OOC bickering.

Thank you for letting me explain my position.

[Sumeragi]

Emperor Mudd, on Dec 11 2008, 11:50 AM, said:

It was coming either way. Me having my ships in your waters just meant the actual CB was for a different reason than it would have otherwise. I was going to force a war no matter what, you being active wasn't going to change that.

Perhaps, but the whole incident would hav been more open-ended, and not this whole setup/bait.

[Emperor Mudd]

Sumeragi, on Dec 10 2008, 06:51 PM, said:

Perhaps, but the whole incident would hav been more open-ended, and not this whole setup/bait.

It would have been something else and the result would have been the same. We'd still be attacking you now.

This post has been edited by Emperor Mudd: 10 December 2008 - 08:55 PM

[Sargun]

Is there a particular reason you decided to attack DKT? I mean, just because they closed their waters you want to glass their country?

[Mogar]

Triyun, on Dec 10 2008, 09:51 PM, said:

I view this as incredibly problematic because it give a perverse incentive for other players to declare similar systems. And pretty soon your job is harder because you will be forced to make judgement calls on whatever players dream up, versus what their nation is realistically capable of having. We are fortunate in cybernations to have a in game way of measuring a nations capability so it isn't left to speculation of the player. A system such as the one which Sumeragi proposes undermines this very idea, and would in my mind lead to the further degradation of this forum to OOC bickering.

I'd like to add to this that baronuberstien's doomsday weapons caused alot of problems last night, similar to sumeragi's weaponry.

[Sumeragi]

Mogar, on Dec 11 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

with what magical navy would you have stopped his ships out of curiosity?

http://forums.cybern...s...c=40049&hl=


Shall we now stop the whole IG stats game? It's getting out of hand.

Triyun, on Dec 11 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

A system such as the one which Sumeragi proposes undermines this very idea, and would in my mind lead to the further degradation of this forum to OOC bickering.

There's a countermeasure to my system that any nation can use. It's not my fault if you can't think of it.

[Emperor Mudd]

Sargun, on Dec 10 2008, 06:53 PM, said:

Is there a particular reason you decided to attack DKT? I mean, just because they closed their waters you want to glass their country?

Numerous reasons which have no bearing on this discussion. I have my reasons, and they will remain private because they are irrelevant.

[Sargun]

Emperor Mudd, on Dec 10 2008, 08:55 PM, said:

Numerous reasons which have no bearing on this discussion. I have my reasons, and they will remain private because they are irrelevant.

If they are OOC reasons, I wonder why you attack a nation, forge a CB and bring numerous allies into it for OOC reasons - which is very relevant.

[Mogar]

Sumeragi, on Dec 10 2008, 09:55 PM, said:

http://forums.cybern...s...c=40049&hl=


Shall we now stop the whole IG stats game? It's getting out of hand.

No, i just dont think you have the navy to patrol the waters you claim, period. The United States, Russia, and the Eu have about 50 ships patrolling the area around Somalia, and we cant stop pirates, you're claiming about 10x the waters, do you really think you could stop every single ship passing through them?