[King Daniel the 1st]

The CN flag custom 23 was the original confederate flag when 7 states had seceded untill 4 more followed. I never knew untill I looked on wikipedia and saw that this was the original flag of the confederacy. Its my nations flag and my alliances flag and im proud to fly it. FOR THE CONFEDERACY!


(I still dont see why CN doesnt add the more commonly known Confederate flag up there so if you want it as your nation flag you can have it up there. I dont see how its offensive, its just a flag.)

[Sunake]

And?

[King Daniel the 1st]

just thought id let ppl know, god.

[Kenadian_2006]

The boiler room is for debate threads. You can turn this into a confederacy debate if you want to but...

[Tolkien]

Wrong forum. This is both an OOC forum and a serious debate forum.

Neither fits this topic. Unless this degenerates into another Civil War/Confederacy thread. If so, Admin help us all.

[Comrade Tiki]

It is just a flag, but understand that it's come to represent more than that because of the war.

It's shared a similar fate with the Nazi flag. The American Civil War eventually became understood to be about Slavery, whereas World War II soon became understood to be about the Holocaust. Perhaps these links wouldn't be as correlated if the nation in question did not cease to formally exist at the same time these atrocities were formally ended.

That's one reason the Soviet Union's flag isn't deemed so offensive (for deaths by purges, or famines, or whatnot). The country's flag was around for more than the average lifespan, and when the country itself ceased to exist, it did not also mark the end of a terrible era that would forever haunt its memory. (In fact, it was followed by notably worse economic times.)


The difference with custom 23 is that the original secession is an acceptable historical event, for the secession never started in the name of slavery.


And let those events end here.

This post has been edited by Comrade Tiki: 07 December 2008 - 03:11 PM

[King Daniel the 1st]

was going to put it in the water cooler but knew most likely it would turn into a debate.

[King Daniel the 1st]

The reason the southern states seceded was because the north and federal goverment thought they could overule the souths state rights which were the reason they joined the union in the first place. Plus Lincoln violated the constitution by retaking the south because it stated in the constitution if the goverment became oppresive a state had the right to secede.

[Tolkien]

One: Do you honestly expect the South was going to be able to secede without a fight? Really? I don't care who was President, but a war was going to happen one way or another.

Two: Point me to the section of the Constitution that makes secession legal.

Three: Insurrection Act of 1807.

[Sunake]

King Daniel the 1st, on Dec 7 2008, 09:14 PM, said:

The reason the southern states seceded was because the north and federal goverment thought they could overule the souths state rights which were the reason they joined the union in the first place. Plus Lincoln violated the constitution by retaking the south because it stated in the constitution if the goverment became oppresive a state had the right to secede.

The South seceded, committed an act of war by attacking Sumter, was soundly beaten by the Noth in said war and was reabsorbed back into the fold. Make sense?

[MaGneT]

It amuses me how many people from that area claim to be real Americans. The north might be more liberal-progressive, which I disagree with, but no one's ever seceded.

Then again, I just dislike the Confederacy a lot, so I'm probably too biased to participate in this debate.

[SoxNation]

Sunake, on Dec 7 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

The South seceded, committed an act of war by attacking Sumter, was soundly beaten by the Noth in said war and was reabsorbed back into the fold. Make sense?

thats debateable if you believe that they had a right to secede then any federal bases on southern land the north no longer had a right to. IE: it wasn't their land and they didn't renegotiate for the right to it.

The south told them to vacate, in essence the northern troops remaining at fort sumter itself was an act of war.

[King Daniel the 1st]

The reason the confederates attacked Fort Sumter was because the north was sending suplys for them to help wage war on the confederacy. Plus the only reason the north won was because they had superior weapons and superior numbers if it would have been a fair fight the north would have lost horribly. The north didnt even have any good generals that compared to General Lee or Stonewall Jackson untill Grant came along. Oh and for the dude that said seccesion asnt legal, look at the original constitution before all the amendments were made. It clearly states seccesion WAS legal if the goverment became surpressive. Ill try to find it to prove it to you.

[Creation]

Comrade Tiki, on Dec 7 2008, 03:10 PM, said:

It's shared a similar fate with the Nazi flag. The American Civil War eventually became understood to be about Slavery, whereas World War II soon became understood to be about the Holocaust. Perhaps these links wouldn't be as correlated if the nation in question did not cease to formally exist at the same time these atrocities were formally ended.

This.... and.... just this.

The Swastika didn't always used to be synonymous with the Nazi party of Germany. As such, the Confederate flag hasn't always been synonymous with Slavery, but all it takes is a handful of people using it as a symbol of "I'm better than you", and it's hard to not become synonymous with that.

Being a southerner myself (from Sweet Home Alabama), I believe it to be more of a symbol of heritage than hate. However, outside of the south, it's hard to argue that. While neither side is "right or wrong", it's best to leave it alone. The flags we have are either RL countries, or alliance flags. Those alone should be enough to where everyone can find at least something they like.

[Sunake]

SoxNation, on Dec 7 2008, 09:50 PM, said:

thats debateable if you believe that they had a right to secede then any federal bases on southern land the north no longer had a right to. IE: it wasn't their land and they didn't renegotiate for the right to it.

The south told them to vacate, in essence the northern troops remaining at fort sumter itself was an act of war.

At what point between South Carolina seceding and the attack on Fort Sumter did the South ever say, "Look guys, leave." Plus any fort the federal government owns is owned by the federal government, no matter if the territory the fort is in changes faces.

[Dennis Von Bremen]

Sunake, on Dec 7 2008, 03:53 PM, said:

At what point between South Carolina seceding and the attack on Fort Sumter did the South ever say, "Look guys, leave." Plus any fort the federal government owns is owned by the federal government, no matter if the territory the fort is in changes faces.

Very true, look at Guantanamo Bay, Castro rules Cuba but he would never think of attacking the U.S. base there.

[Edward Cullen]

King Daniel the 1st, on Dec 7 2008, 10:00 PM, said:

(I still dont see why CN doesnt add the more commonly known Confederate flag up there so if you want it as your nation flag you can have it up there. I dont see how its offensive, its just a flag.)

Since this has become a serious debate thread, it will remain in the Boiler Room.

However, the statement I just quoted is not to be discussed in this thread.

[King Daniel the 1st]

okay.

[Lamuella]

I've always been somewhat of the opinion that flying the confederate battle flag (the blue starred saltire on a red background) is being somewhat disloyal to the United States of America

Not to say that either side in the Civil War was right or wrong, but one side was victorious, and it was that side that determined the direction of the United States. The flags of the confederacy are the flags of those who raised arms against the United States. Whether their reasons were bad or good, I am still of the opinion that it shows disloyalty to the Union.

but then, I'm not an American. My country's civil war happened without easily identifiable flags.

[King Daniel the 1st]

well your right and I love the USA but im sorry to say if we seceded again I would take up arms against the union. For one I couldnt fight against my state of North Carolina and two I would support the confederate cause whether it was utterly hopeless.