Let's Play With Scorpions!

[hartfw]

7 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

 

Emperor Mic left SPATR on the 21st while in peace mode. No history of active wars

 

Almost like those were related.

 

 

[DoorNail]

Just now, Auctor said:

Closest thing I can think of was some dude that pm'd hartfw that he hopes he was a victim of parental abuse of an unsavory nature and then hopping to "Oculus PoW" for a day and then back to MONGOLS. I have yet to have receive anything that seemed serious aside from third parties attempting to intervene and I actually have discussed the issues we'd have with it with them.

 

But go on. Tell everyone how NEW and Kaskus and TIR are being held to eternal war because surrender/no reentry is evil.

 

That indicates you plan on keeping MONGOLS and SPATR under your boot for as long as you please, so yes that is pretty dirty.

Edited July 2, 2016 by DoorNail

[hartfw]

8 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

Technically, they should be declaring on KoN for the same reason, as they accepted Mic as a member.

 

Sengoku and Oculus is at war with Emperor Mic.  KoN was wise, and didn't keep him as a member, or aid him.  You picked to do both.  And knew what you were doing.

 

And even still, you were addressed diplomatically.  You instead choose to attack us directly to further support harboring someone at war with us.

 

Thats a an aggressive premeditated !@#$%* move.  But its your call, and will be responded to.  The fact that you had allies bulking up and contacting me innediately about it suggests its not good intentioned and wasn't ever meant that way.

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by hartfw

[Geerland]

Bulking up before even trying to talk to us? I think this is going to end up as a good example of what not to do. 

 

 

As regards individual surrenders, the very first person that we let do it span a massive tale that turned out to be all lies , understandably that left a bad taste in our mouths. 

[James Spanier]

9 hours ago, Caliph said:

Kind of an easy vote when they are being attacked.

 

To be fair last night I misrepresented numbers even after looking it over thrice, it was an hour and fifteen minutes not fifteen. That said, considering only one person who was a signatory to this post-update DoW participated in their blitz (being Alexio himself) I'm skeptical that an alliance that is apparently so democratic in nature voted at all.

 

Of course it's an alliance of 24, so maybe they did pull off one of the quickest war votes ever (premeditated counters do not count towards the award).

[President S O]

Ohm, if I get a chance. . . . .

[Xanth]

10 hours ago, Caustic said:

Oculus has been at war with SPATR for months now... how exactly did you think this was going to go? You accepted a member from an alliance at war, you've been around CN long enough to fully realize that's generally a no no. I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.

Whats Your policy on nations that have been removed from the game for inactivity that return and join a different alliance? 

[peonage]

First, why was my name left off the list of signers!?!? Sure, I never really say much here or in the alliance but I FEEL important!

 

Second, I guess we're at war. I logged on today and saw I had a bunch of new messages. I figured all my long lost tech trades (taking my money and running!) had finally returned like the promised son only to see I was at war. I looked at alliance chat and saw a post for a question on what to do about the new member. However, I was already at war! I don't really understand why or how we're in this war. All I know is finally the game can be interesting for a bit and maybe I can earn my final wonder. 

 

Third, we did try to do it democratically but only one person had a chance to respond before we were attacked and he said, " I have a strong history with many Sengoku members. I could try and talk tothemif you want me to" Obviously, he's a little drunk so I don't blame anyone for not trying to listen to him.

 

Fourth, what's done is done. Let's just have fun, enjoy a clean war, and shake hands after it's all over. Maybe even hugs. Or kisses. I'm so lonely...

[hartfw]

10 minutes ago, peonage said:

Third, we did try to do it democratically but only one person had a chance to respond before we were attacked and he said, " I have a strong history with many Sengoku members. I could try and talk tothemif you want me to" Obviously, he's a little drunk so I don't blame anyone for not trying to listen to him.

 

Fourth, what's done is done. Let's just have fun, enjoy a clean war, and shake hands after it's all over. Maybe even hugs. Or kisses. I'm so lonely...

 

TSC aided 33m and 100 tech (interesting to see both money and tech going in) to a guy who had declared wars against Oculus, and was hiding in pm.  While such an action could be taken as an act of war itself, it wasn't and TSC was afforded the respect of being informed that they had accepted someone currently at war with Oculus and that that status was still unresolved.

 

Instead of addressing this, TSC expressed a preference for war but that they needed to vote on what to do.  Even still, TSC wasn't attacked (although at that point it might have made sense). But people at war are not going to be harbored and allowed to regrow unfettered to come back and hit us.  So the guy who has declared wars on oculus, and has spent a month fighting them was staggered.

 

TSC could have chosen to address this diplomatically.  They did not.  They declared war and attacked after aiding a guy already at war against us.  If there was a semblance of interest in peace and not war mongering, you have been led astray by a member of your government.  Perhaps diplomacy is still possible, I know some great people on both sides of this.

 

On the other hand, if this was a big ploy to make a fake chain of aggression in, it is a shame you couldn't have done it honestly.  Honest is the best way to meet and keep friends after all.

[peonage]

1 hour ago, hartfw said:

 

TSC aided 33m and 100 tech (interesting to see both money and tech going in) to a guy who had declared wars against Oculus, and was hiding in pm.  While such an action could be taken as an act of war itself, it wasn't and TSC was afforded the respect of being informed that they had accepted someone currently at war with Oculus and that that status was still unresolved.

 

True, we did take him in. On 6/24/16.  We were then informed on 6/29/16 what was going on according the message Auctor posted. Two days later Alex logs in and responds to Auctor. They discuss it for a few hours and Alex leaves it saying he wants to talk it over with our alliance. Five hours after the discussion where Alex says he wants to discuss with our alliance we are declared on by Sengoku. This is all if I'm following dates, times, and messages correctly (and I might not be). To me, it looks like we were told almost a week after receiving him into our alliance and then attacked five hours after saying our alliance needs to discuss how to handle him. Doesn't give us much time to do anything especially over a holiday weekend in USA.

1 hour ago, hartfw said:

 They declared war and attacked after aiding a guy already at war against us. 

On the other hand, if this was a big ploy to make a fake chain of aggression in, it is a shame you couldn't have done it honestly.  Honest is the best way to meet and keep friends after all.

Could you point me out to where we launched the first attack? I only see the first hit coming from Sengoku but I admit I might be missing it.

[Auctor]

Given we were at war with that nation the entire time and your alliance was given from 6/29/2016 11:57:30 PM  to 7/2/2016 12:28:10 AM to sort out their involvement, I can only assume you're bad at reading timestamps.

[Caliph]

10 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Given we were at war with that nation the entire time and your alliance was given from 6/29/2016 11:57:30 PM  to 7/2/2016 12:28:10 AM to sort out their involvement, I can only assume you're bad at reading timestamps.

He was in inactivity mode.  Are you saying Oculus is at war with people who aren't even in the game?

[Auctor]

1 minute ago, Caliph said:

He was in inactivity mode.  Are you saying Oculus is at war with people who aren't even in the game?

You realize this is something that can actually be fact checked, right?

[hartfw]

47 minutes ago, peonage said:

True, we did take him in. On 6/24/16.  We were then informed on 6/29/16 what was going on according the message Auctor posted. Two days later Alex logs in and responds to Auctor. They discuss it for a few hours and Alex leaves it saying he wants to talk it over with our alliance. Five hours after the discussion where Alex says he wants to discuss with our alliance we are declared on by Sengoku. This is all if I'm following dates, times, and messages correctly (and I might not be). To me, it looks like we were told almost a week after receiving him into our alliance and then attacked five hours after saying our alliance needs to discuss how to handle him. Doesn't give us much time to do anything especially over a holiday weekend in USA.

Could you point me out to where we launched the first attack? I only see the first hit coming from Sengoku but I admit I might be missing it.

 

You took in a nation that was clearly fleeing war, and was in peace mode.  The idea that this required new information is a stretch.   You then sent money and tech to him.  The intention of that is questionable.  That he was still at war was obvious.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Given we were at war with that nation the entire time and your alliance was given from 6/29/2016 11:57:30 PM  to 7/2/2016 12:28:10 AM to sort out their involvement, I can only assume you're bad at reading timestamps.

 

I feel like Auctor summarized it pretty well.  That nation at no point stopped being at war with all of Oculus.  At no point did anyone not previously at war get attacked by Sengoku.

 

Somehow you want people to believe that you were that naive to understand that, and so inactive to be incapable of doing anything in response for 3 days, but could post a formal state of war over a guy who hasn't even applied to be on your forums?  Thats an amazing set of events.  Or a very cowardly war entrance.

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by hartfw

[Alexio15]

3 hours ago, James Spanier said:

 

To be fair last night I misrepresented numbers even after looking it over thrice, it was an hour and fifteen minutes not fifteen. That said, considering only one person who was a signatory to this post-update DoW participated in their blitz (being Alexio himself) I'm skeptical that an alliance that is apparently so democratic in nature voted at all.

 

Of course it's an alliance of 24, so maybe they did pull off one of the quickest war votes ever (premeditated counters do not count towards the award).

Wrong Alex James I'm not TSC leader I'm Atlas leader.

[brucemania]

13 hours ago, Alex0827a said:

[insert flag later, tablet isn't good for this]

 

For the purposes of full disclosure:

 

Emperor Mic left SPATR on the 21st while in peace mode. No history of active wars, no signs of any trouble. He asked to join us on the 29th, we said yes. Then yesterday, I get a pm from Auctor basically saying "he's on our target list, kick him or we'll attack you." For those of you who actually know me, you will recognize that threats are an awful way to go about getting anything from me. I told him I'm 100% against that, and here's my reasoning: 

 

Mic has no history of wars with anyone, let alone Sengoku.

Sengoku's last active war with SPATR was on June 3rd, so it's hard to believe that it's anything more than just a hobby for them. 

They waited a couple days, so obviously it wasn't important enough to follow him closely.

Technically, they should be declaring on KoN for the same reason, as they accepted Mic as a member.

Nobody who currently has an active war with SPATR has contacted me in any way saying that this was an issue.

 

Now, I personally prefer to fight, but that's not how TSC runs. I asked for a day to discuss it with the membership, because that's how we make important decisions. Auctor seemed agreeable, but then I woke up to find that Mic had been attacked. 

 

In summary, The Sandstorm Confederacy hereby recognizes a state of active war with Sengoku. Given their tech levels, I don't necessarily expect us to come out on top, but we can't let anyone attack someone on our AA without thorough discussion first, and this was not the case.

 

Maybe this time they won't feel the need to call in Pacifica and Umbrella just to handle us. Or maybe they will, because that's just what Oculus does. I used to like Sengoku, but I guess that was just hart (who I still like).

 

Signed for The Sandstorm Confederacy

 

Alex0827a - Elder of Travel

ConRed - Elder of the Treasury

Satan1612 - Elder of Organization

veracity - Elder of War

eXcessium - Tribal Elder

 

Emperor Mic Definitely was at war ... i know as i was one of the first to actually hit him.  Now reading this twice or three times over, the one thing i see lacking which i know most alliances do is that i notice you never say when Emperor Mic joined your alliance you yourself had gone anywhere to see if he was currently still a target. If this is not your policy then that is not on the alliances that are at war with Spatr or Mongols but actually on yourself for not checking out fully a applicant to your AA.  Now for someone whom says he wants to fight it seems to me you looking at gaining sympathy which in this case i doubt you will achieve do to posting you want to fight anyways.   As for Seg calling in Umbrella and NPO to deal with this well  as i recall we did as well declare on Spatr( i was one of the first to hit Emperor MIc so no real recalling) ..they really would not have to call them in as he is still a target to them as well.

[DeathAdder]

It's always fun when Leaders make threats to another AA, subsequently get attacked, and then use the victim card because they're a "Democracy" and not all of their leaders signed the check their mouth wrote, which their asses are now cashing.

Never change, Bob. Never change.

Edited July 2, 2016 by DeathAdder

[James Spanier]

6 hours ago, Alexio15 said:

Wrong Alex James I'm not TSC leader I'm Atlas leader.

 

You know, I saw Alex0 and just filled in the blanks, apparently like how I failed to conduct proper math omitting a whole hour.

 

I'm a train wreck, I apologize.

[The Zigur]

So uh... didn't plan an offensive... didn't give members time to prepare... didn't wait for a vote or government consensus. This doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do to the rest of the alliance.

[monkeybum]

GLoF accepts this invitation to give our upper tier a workout.

[rileyaddaff]

Why dont you guys start declaring on AAs that have a decent top tier?

[Auctor]

1 hour ago, rileyaddaff said:

Why dont you guys start declaring on AAs that have a decent top tier?

 

Yeah TSC. Get your crap together.

 

wtf just happened here

[murtibing]

Good luck, The Sandstorm Confederacy!

 

In January 2014 seven ex-Badlands members were removed from SPATR for various reasons (which effectively ended our merger with Badlands). Emperor Mic was one of those removed from the alliance at that time. He was later allowed to return. So it turns out that if we had not allowed Emperor Mic to rejoin, he wouldn't have been in trouble now.

[Geerland]

15 hours ago, Xanth said:

Whats Your policy on nations that have been removed from the game for inactivity that return and join a different alliance? 

Depends who they are, and what they do once they rejoin. If it was someone insignificant (ie not one of those who sent 1000's of tech to bones etc) and was not gov, and joins that alliance in good faith (ie no aiding of people that we are at war with) then I don't see that it would be an issue. We would have to be informed though, as we keep track of nations coming in and out of inactivity so if we aren't informed then the nation could be declared on. 

[Alex0827a]

To clarify, I expressed a desire for war. Me, personally, not TSC as a whole. As I said on irc last night, we likely would have come to some agreement or other had Sengoku not attacked before giving us time to discuss. Given the timing of the attack, it seems apparent that diplomacy was not Sengoku's goal at all. You guys have been around long enough to know that attacking someone while actually working to reach an agreement is very poor diplomacy. By doing this, you pretty much forced a reaction, rather than a solution.

 

[OOC]My apologies for not responding immediately Auctor - I work 10 hour days, raise a 4 month old on my own, and have two nephews up for a couple weeks that I haven't seen in a while. I'm a tad busy  [/OOC]

Edited July 3, 2016 by Alex0827a