[cookavich]

Topic is pretty self explanatory. I recently had an interesting discussion about this with my history professor, and I wanted to see what the people of the Cyberverse thought.

Note: this is not the place to call for Bush's impeachment or to label him a war criminal. I'm not interested in a bashing session but some discussion revolving around what we think are the accomplishments and failures that will be remembered from Bush's terms in office.

So, the question is: What will George W. Bush be remembered for having done ten years after he leaves office? Twenty-five years? Fifty years? Longer?

If you think he will be remembered more for his failures, what specifically do you think will be the failures that define his presidency? Do you think these failures will always be seen as failures? Could they possibly be seen as leading to something beneficial to the US or the world? Here's a challenge for those of you who think he would be remembered for his failures: find something that he has done during this time that you think might be seen as a positive in the future (just as Nixon's dealings with China are looked upon as the bright spot in an otherwise corrupt and morally bankrupt administration).

If you think that, like Truman, he will be remembered much more favorably in the future than he was during his own time, what are the accomplishments that you think would be remembered as the pivotal successes of his presidency? Why do you think they are enough to eventually, over time, offset the huge lack of approval that the President is currently experiencing? For those who think that history will look upon Bush much more favorably than his constituents do now, what are the failures that must be overcome in order for this to be achieved?

Discuss.

This post has been edited by cookavich: 02 January 2008 - 11:30 AM

[Kenadian_2006]

He won't be remembered like Truman or Lincoln, that's for sure.

[WiseShakespeare]

I would be quite surprised if Bush is remembered well in any light, positive or negative. If he is remembered it will almost certainly be for his failings but I suspect his presidency will mostly be forgotten by history.

[Loki Ire]

Kenadian_2006, on Jan 2 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

He won't be remembered like Truman or Lincoln, that's for sure.

Truman is hardly even remembered in later generations, honestly. Clinton, both Bushes, and probably the rest of the currently living presidents won't be more than vaguely familiar names to school-age children 20 or 30 years from now. We haven't really had anyone truly memorable (in the sense of a Washington or a Lincoln) since JFK.

[Aeternos Astramora]

Loki Ire, on Jan 2 2008, 11:55 AM, said:

Truman is hardly even remembered in later generations, honestly. Clinton, both Bushes, and probably the rest of the currently living presidents won't be more than vaguely familiar names to school-age children 20 or 30 years from now. We haven't really had anyone truly memorable (in the sense of a Washington or a Lincoln) since JFK.

I'd put Reagan in with them.

[commander thrawn]

there arent many really memorable presidents. I guess time will tell, i think he will be remembered slightly better if the Middle East ever gets calmed down. A lot will depend on who gets in next.

[arentak]

From a constitutional viewpoint, his doctrines and interpretations will be remembered for the massive expansion of executive power, at the expense of the legislative and judiciary branches. If the changes are reversed with the next president, then it won't matter, but if the next president continues down Bush's bath, Bush could be remembered as the beginning of the end of our system of checks and balances.

[Loki Ire]

Aeternos Astramora, on Jan 2 2008, 12:57 PM, said:

I'd put Reagan in with them.

Reagan has a pretty large fan club to this day. I don't think you see him fading into history for 40 or 50 years at least, and he's already dead. Sadly, I think Kennedy will soon be remembered more for the brutal and public way in which he was executed, as well as the controversy surrounding that event, than for the youthful optimism and hopefulness that he brought with him to the office.

[GTTofAK]

Loki Ire, on Jan 2 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

Truman is hardly even remembered in later generations, honestly. Clinton, both Bushes, and probably the rest of the currently living presidents won't be more than vaguely familiar names to school-age children 20 or 30 years from now. We haven't really had anyone truly memorable (in the sense of a Washington or a Lincoln) since JFK.

JFK will be forgotten as soon as all the baby boomers who thought he looked handsome and were traumatized by his death die themselves. From a historical prospective he didn’t' do jack !@#$ and there is zero reason for history to remember him. Leaders are remembered by the effect they had on history and only that. Popularity the economy and all other !@#$%^&* things we place extreme value on mean jack !@#$ in the long run.

[WiseShakespeare]

GTTofAK, on Jan 2 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

JFK will be forgotten as soon as all the baby boomers who thought he looked handsome and were traumatized by his death die themselves. From a historical prospective he didn’t' do jack !@#$ and there is zero reason for history to remember him. Leaders are remembered by the effect they had on history and only that. Popularity the economy and all other !@#$%^&* things we place extreme value on mean jack !@#$ in the long run.

JFK had good soundbites and played well on TV and so is likely to last irrespective of his actual impact on history.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

If Iraq becomes a successful democracy everyone will remember Bush as the man who spread freedom to the Middle East. If Iraq fails everyone will remember Bush as the idiot who got us into a pointless war.

[Smallfrog]

He presided over 9/11, and has done very little else of note.

This post has been edited by Smallfrog: 02 January 2008 - 12:20 PM

[Shardoon]

Vladimir Stukov II, on Jan 2 2008, 12:21 PM, said:

If Iraq becomes a successful democracy everyone will remember Bush as the man who spread freedom to the Middle East. If Iraq fails everyone will remember Bush as the idiot who got us into a pointless war.

Your first point is correct, but only from the perspective of "western" historians. Democracy in the Middle East may be decried for generations by historians from that region.

Your second point is in error. While Bush may be cited as having taken us to war without just cause (pointlessly) - the war itself is no longer a pointless war. The repercussions of the current wars in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq, will have huge impact on international relations for the next few decades and likely beyond.

[WiseShakespeare]

Shardoon, on Jan 2 2008, 06:34 PM, said:

Your second point is in error. While Bush may be cited as having taken us to war without just cause (pointlessly) - the war itself is no longer a pointless war. The repercussions of the current wars in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq, will have huge impact on international relations for the next few decades and likely beyond.

So he may be remembered as a president who started a perpetual cycle of pointless wars and international tension.

[Vaal Satori]

Vladimir Stukov II, on Jan 2 2008, 01:21 PM, said:

If Iraq becomes a successful democracy everyone will remember Bush as the man who spread freedom to the Middle East. If Iraq fails everyone will remember Bush as the idiot who got us into a pointless war.

I agree. It will all hinge on how Iraq turns out. Seeing as though the American people want our troops out, and a Democrat will probably win the White House and oblige them, I don't see our Iraq adventure ending very well.

GTTofAK, on Jan 2 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

JFK will be forgotten as soon as all the baby boomers who thought he looked handsome and were traumatized by his death die themselves. From a historical prospective he didn’t' do jack !@#$ and there is zero reason for history to remember him. Leaders are remembered by the effect they had on history and only that. Popularity the economy and all other !@#$%^&* things we place extreme value on mean jack !@#$ in the long run.

He did successfully navigate the Cuban Missile Crisis. If another man had been our president we might have all died. He made the tough calls, such as overriding our planned invasion of Cuba after our spy plane was shot down. The Cubans had battlefield nukes at that time, and would have probably used them on our troops, provoking a response and starting a nuclear war.

[mastab]

He'll be remembered for leading the US through a hard time, and failing horribly at it. Hell, we might even need a new variation of Godwin's Law for mentioning Bush in a debate as an example of poor leadership.

It's true that some bad leaders have been forgiven over time, but none have recovered from being as hated as Bush is - his own party is working against him at this point.

Unless he dies. If that happens, everyone will forgive him, but that seems unlikely.

[Mihaly von Zsilinsky]

meh, but he SHOULD be impeached...remember that he still has another year left to make s.hit out of his country...

---

He will be remembered as someone with no grasp on world affairs, creating the most closed-minded and distant government the US has ever seen, and a constant liar about everything from the War in Iraq to Valerie Plame. Not to mention that he sold our labor economy to China, let the dollar crash, gave China the opportunity to cause a depression this country has never seen before, and still completely ignores global warming.

Yes, Nixon was a terrible president, but he actually tried to AVERT war with the Soviet Union and improved America's image. Yet when Iran tried to cooperate with America when we invaded Afghanstan, Bush labeled them part of the "Axis of Evil".

He's failed at just about everything. Amazing.

This post has been edited by The Eternal Chairman: 02 January 2008 - 01:38 PM

[Kenadian_2006]

Smallfrog, on Jan 2 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

He presided over 9/11, and has done very little else of note.

I'd think pulling out of a weapons treaty, starting two wars, being a serious contender for the title of most hated president ever and making toilet paper out of the constitution is of note.

[Leguaris]

I think Bush, first and foremost, will be remembered for walking all over the Constitution, in particular massively expanding the power of federal intelligence at the expense of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments.

Next in line would probably be singlehandedly destroying America's reputation abroad, and dealing a massive blow to the soft power we wield. The actions of this presidency could potentially end America's role as "Hyperpower."

Third, and tying into the previous legacy, would be leading the worst planned war in US history, topping our failed invasion of Canada. Add to that a casus belli which has been shown to be at best mistaken and at worst intentionally falsified, and Bush could be credited for starting (arguably) the worst war in American history.

On a side note . . .

Quote

I'm not interested in a bashing session but some discussion revolving around what we think are the accomplishments and failures that will be remembered from Bush's terms in office.

It's fairly hard to get into his accomplishments and failures without "bashing" him, particularly if bashing means any negative criticism.

[Saniel]

Kind of like Nixon, but without the positive aspect of at least being somewhat effective.