A Note of Concern and Assistance

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sabcat' timestamp='1340015642' post='2987519']
In the final analysis there's some twists and turns that have created a situation that is less than ideal but we are happy. We have treaties with people and if you wish to know how happy we are with them check the cancellation of treaty threads that we have posted since this all started.
[/quote]
Like your signature says, lie down with dogs, get fleas. The indications I've received from LSF allies indicate that in a sane world the Int cancellation thread should be posted any minute now; however, if LSF has some kind of idiotic idea that ~[i]next time[/i]~ Int will honor the treaty, well, that's your pipe dream to follow, bub. Let's put this realistically: The commies screwed this one up (again) and the commies laid down and died, International is never going to stand up to NoR as long as NoR is allied to MK and Duckroll, and neither has any reason to get rid of NoR, because NoR didn't screw up, and they won't.

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340027052' post='2987607']
Look at the bitter baby in the OP. Look at how bitter he is.

Recommendation for Valhalla though, while we're providing snide "assistance" to others; stop your terrible 100% definitely unofficial Valhalla opinion posters from starting their call-out threads with "we at Valhalla". It can create the (obviously, definitely, completely mistaken) perception that this is what you actually believe! And nobody wants that.
[/quote]
GATO barks. . .

[quote name='Lord Levistus' timestamp='1340019517' post='2987540']
Hal is not Valhalla gov, and he does not speak for Valhalla.

If he did speak for Valhalla i could shut him up and stop him from starting threads that make Valhalla look foolish and upset our allies.
[/quote]
Valhalla listens. What a riot! Hal's thread isn't half as embarrassing as the ass-kissing. You think this is rough? Brehon makes this thread look like Romper Room, but do you think he's walking around back rooms on eggshells making excuses for himself? I wouldn't bet it!

What a joke! Who's giving you hell, Valhalla? Allies? Allies-of-allies? The very same people who have told Int to let their ally burn are coming to you with three-treaties-out complaints about some thread a half-retired member opened? Tell them to cram it up their asses! You're [i]Valhalla[/i]!

Edited June 18, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Hereno]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340030776' post='2987649']
Like your signature says, lie down with dogs, get fleas. The indications I've received from LSF allies indicate that in a sane world the Int cancellation thread should be posted any minute now; however, if LSF has some kind of idiotic idea that ~[i]next time[/i]~ Int will honor the treaty, well, that's your pipe dream to follow, bub. Let's put this realistically: The commies screwed this one up (again) and the commies laid down and died, International is never going to stand up to NoR as long as NoR is allied to MK and Duckroll, and neither has any reason to get rid of NoR, because NoR didn't screw up, and they won't.

GATO barks. . .

Valhalla listens. What a riot! Hal's thread isn't half as embarrassing as the ass-kissing. You think this is rough? Brehon makes this thread look like Romper Room, but do you think he's walking around back rooms on eggshells making excuses for himself? I wouldn't bet it!

What a joke! Who's giving you hell, Valhalla? Allies? Allies-of-allies? The very same people who have told Int to let their ally burn are coming to you with three-treaties-out complaints about some thread a half-retired member opened? Tell them to cram it up their asses! You're [i]Valhalla[/i]!
[/quote]

Your bias is showing.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340032076' post='2987666']
Your bias is showing.
[/quote]
This post would be a lot more clever if at any point I had claimed not to be biased, jackass.
[hr]
You mooks sit around complaining about how boring things are and about how you can't do anything; members of MK and their allies have the audacity to open threads and go on diatribes about how moralists are tying their hands at every turn; anyone with a brainstem knows it's a load, but then again no one ever accused folks from the lulz alliances of deep political thinking, so it gets applause.

Well, here we are! Again. [i]Yet [/i]again. [i]Who's[/i] treaties are the ties that bind? [i]Who [/i]is holding everything up? [i]Who [/i]is stumbling all over each other to pull together enough red herring DoWs and pre-empts to keep everything, [i]everything[/i], at a standstill again?

You're running scared. You're all pathetic. Big damned heroes and sooooo smug until you have to face the reality of your own house of cards; not one of us out here looking in is impressed. What an embarrassment!

Edited June 18, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340033615' post='2987686']
not one of us out here looking in is impressed.
[/quote]

I can safely say that nobody has thought "I wonder what Schattenmann will have to say about all this?", so don't trouble yourself too much

[Lurunin]

Honestly I thought int were better than this..you went around embassy to embassy saying you were going to war, made plenty of sigs and propaganda with INT v NoR on them and rattled sabers on the owf only to back away for some "underlying reasons"

Seriously? You backed an odp ally last war who purposely withheld peace and stalled negotiations so that they can bring you guys in to be used to simply add extra damage at last minute (well ghosted a few nations in the end atleast). but yet when another MDoAP ally gets attacked after baiting for a war you fully supported you are touting all these reasons as to why you don't need to defend them anymore....

Also the fact that its mostly Gato/TLR people doing damage control makes everyone else's assessment seem more and more accurate that you simply backed off yet again to CnG pressure.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340033750' post='2987689']
I can safely say that nobody has thought "I wonder what Schattenmann will have to say about all this?", so don't trouble yourself too much
[/quote]
Go on, Laslo, Doom House Caretaker of the GATO Assembly. If all you have to say for your miserable ally and your miserable, hogtied bloc is "Schattenmann, hurrdurr" you confirm my words more each time that it is all you have to say. You go gossip about me in the parlour with the ladies while the rest of us talk politics in the study.

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1340033868' post='2987691']
Honestly I thought int were better than this..you went around embassy to embassy saying you were going to war, made plenty of sigs and propaganda with INT v NoR on them and rattled sabers on the owf only to back away for some "underlying reasons"

Seriously? You backed an odp ally last war who purposely withheld peace and stalled negotiations so that they can bring you guys in to be used to simply add extra damage at last minute (well ghosted a few nations in the end atleast). but yet when another MDoAP ally gets attacked after baiting for a war you fully supported you are touting all these reasons as to why you don't need to defend them anymore....

Also the fact that its mostly Gato/TLR people doing damage control makes everyone else's assessment seem more and more accurate that you simply backed off yet again to CnG pressure.
[/quote]
Anyone that is surprised by this has been fooling themselves.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1340033868' post='2987691']
Seriously? You backed an odp ally last war who purposely withheld peace and stalled negotiations so that they can bring you guys in to be used to simply add extra damage at last minute (well ghosted a few nations in the end atleast). but yet when another MDoAP ally gets attacked after baiting for a war you fully supported you are touting all these reasons as to why you don't need to defend them anymore....
[/quote]

A) they were an MDoAP ally, who declared to defend their CnG allies.
b) They made that offer before they really understood the process or the circumstances
c) Considering the alternative plans, you got lucky with just a few nations ghosting to hit you.

Go home.

Almost everyone other than those with a stake otherwise reckons that there is a massive element of aggression to what LSF did. We were happy to support The International either way, but whatever.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340034268' post='2987697']
Go on, Laslo, Doom House Caretaker of the GATO Assembly. If all you have to say for your miserable ally and your miserable, hogtied bloc is "Schattenmann, hurrdurr" you confirm my words more each time that it is all you have to say. You go gossip about me in the parlour with the ladies while the rest of us talk politics in the study.
[/quote]

What a classy bit of misogyny there, you're so feisty when you get upset.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340033615' post='2987686']
This post would be a lot more clever if at any point I had claimed not to be biased, jackass.

You mooks sit around complaining about how boring things are and about how you can't do anything; members of MK and their allies have the audacity to open threads and go on diatribes about how moralists are tying their hands at every turn; anyone with a brainstem knows it's a load, but then again no one ever accused folks from the lulz alliances of deep political thinking, so it gets applause.

Well, here we are! Again. [i]Yet [/i]again. [i]Who's[/i] treaties are the ties that bind? [i]Who [/i]is holding everything up? [i]Who [/i]is stumbling all over each other to pull together enough red herring DoWs and pre-empts to keep everything, [i]everything[/i], at a standstill again?

You're running scared. You're all pathetic. Big damned heroes and sooooo smug until you have to face the reality of your own house of cards; not one of us out here looking in is impressed. What an embarrassment!
[/quote]

As one of the people who helped plan with LSF, and as a person who has since joined LSF to help in this fight, please tell me more about how I'm a mook who is running scared on the orders of MK. NoV couldn't beat LSF, and neither will NoR. You've gotten sloppy and haven't done enough research this time, I'm afraid. Either that or you just don't care, because even if INT had stepped in for LSF, you still wouldn't have anything good to say about them.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340034660' post='2987705']
As one of the people who helped plan with LSF, and as a person who has since joined LSF ....
[/quote]
Oh, did you think this is a personal conversation between Hereno and Schattenmann? Here, I've edited in a hard return for you. It's funny, to me, though, how you've changed your AA, but you haven't changed your allegiance.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340034861' post='2987711']
Oh, did you think this is a personal conversation between Hereno and Schattenmann? Here, I've edited in a hard return for you. It's funny, to me, though, how you've changed your AA, but you haven't changed your allegiance.
[/quote]

Well, I don't think I've ever had one, so I suppose I'm making due with what I can get.

But please, tell me who my allegiance is to. I'm dying to know, really.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Hereno

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340034436' post='2987700']
c) Considering the alternative plans, you got lucky with just a few nations ghosting to hit you.
[/quote]

"Schattenmann is irrelevant"/"We made plan[u][b]s[/b][/u] about him"

[Jgoods45]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1340033868' post='2987691']
Honestly I thought int were better than this..you went around embassy to embassy saying you were going to war, made plenty of sigs and propaganda with INT v NoR on them and rattled sabers on the owf only to back away for some "underlying reasons"

Seriously? You backed an odp ally last war who purposely withheld peace and stalled negotiations so that they can bring you guys in to be used to simply add extra damage at last minute (well ghosted a few nations in the end atleast). but yet when another MDoAP ally gets attacked after baiting for a war you fully supported you are touting all these reasons as to why you don't need to defend them anymore....

Also the fact that its mostly Gato/TLR people doing damage control makes everyone else's assessment seem more and more accurate that you simply backed off yet again to CnG pressure.
[/quote]

Damage control? nah, we're just laying out the facts for yall.

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1340035288' post='2987719']
"Schattenmann is irrelevant"/"We made plan[u][b]s[/b][/u] about him"
[/quote]

Superb reading comprehension and research there, considering we were talking about PPO and Hooligans having difficulties agreeing peace at the end of the MHA front last war.

[Biff Webster]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340035497' post='2987723']
Superb reading comprehension and research there, considering we were talking about PPO and Hooligans having difficulties agreeing peace at the end of the MHA front last war.
[/quote]

You got me there.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1340035591' post='2987726']
You got me there.
[/quote]
Right joke, wrong guy

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340030776' post='2987649']
Like your signature says, lie down with dogs, get fleas. The indications I've received from LSF allies indicate that in a sane world the Int cancellation thread should be posted any minute now; however, if LSF has some kind of idiotic idea that ~[i]next time[/i]~ Int will honor the treaty, well, that's your pipe dream to follow, bub. Let's put this realistically: The commies screwed this one up (again) and the commies laid down and died, International is never going to stand up to NoR as long as NoR is allied to MK and Duckroll, and neither has any reason to get rid of NoR, because NoR didn't screw up, and they won't.[/quote]

Next time?

[OsRavan]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340033615' post='2987686']
You mooks sit around complaining about how boring things are and about how you can't do anything; members of MK and their allies have the audacity to open threads and go on diatribes about how moralists are tying their hands at every turn; anyone with a brainstem knows it's a load, but then again no one ever accused folks from the lulz alliances of deep political thinking, so it gets applause.

Well, here we are! Again. [i]Yet [/i]again. [i]Who's[/i] treaties are the ties that bind? [i]Who [/i]is holding everything up? [i]Who [/i]is stumbling all over each other to pull together enough red herring DoWs and pre-empts to keep everything, [i]everything[/i], at a standstill again?

You're running scared. You're all pathetic. Big damned heroes and sooooo smug until you have to face the reality of your own house of cards; not one of us out here looking in is impressed. What an embarrassment!
[/quote]

I'm going to ramble at you... and everything I say is obviously my opinion of you and your points not hard fact ;:end disclaimer::


I like how the rage is always coming from people not involved in the incident in question and in your case not even indirectly tied.

What exactly is the issue? Now is your issue specifically int/lsf? If it is, i'll just go back to ignoring you and you can go back to raging and rattling the OWF saber and attacking me, int, whoever. Since, while you certainly have the right to voice an opinion... said opinion is irrelevant as the issue doesn't even remotely involve you. Rage all you want, and personally i'll only take it as conformation that everyone involved did the right thing. (I think int should be far more concerned about their actions if they ever find themselves in a position where you are actually congratulating them).

Speaking only personally, the day *I* start to worry about an alliance is when they are so weak willed they let OWF ragers and complainers actually dictate their actions or world view. That to me is a sign of a weak alliance. A strong alliance does what they feel is right and if the OWF complains... screw the OWF. Speaking personally, I don't serve ODN to win the support of random OWF alliance. I serve to further *my* memvbers and *my* friends goals, dreams, vision, and morals. Are THEY satisfied? Yes? Then the rest of you can go jump off the nearest bridge for all I care.

Seriously. Every time I read a thread like this i'm always (cue sarcasm) amazed at how the oddest people seem to suddenly care about my alliance or my allies alliance.

For example... I have all sorts of issues with how you, Schatt, run an alliance and what I view personally as the a-moral actions of CoJ and Schatt that are causing irreparable damage to the Planet. I'm not even just saying that for this thread. If I was being honest I actually think your world view is in large part whats wrong with Bob (and the game)and I find it grates on my nerves to even think about. I'm sure you think the same of me. We can debate that on forum or PM sometime if you like.

But I also recognize that's just my personal code of morality, and as long as you arent directly doing anything to my allies or alliance (and dont cross an ooc line) you shouldn't be forced to conform to my view. And I won't go out of my way to try and MAKE people agree with me.



On the other hand, if your goal here is less about int/sf specifically and more about raging at the world, I have to disagree with you. Bob is imo clearly multi-polar and ever changing/shifting. Despite the propaganda of some, MK doesnt actually control all that much. The world changes slowly but it changes. And most people take actions for their own reasons not for yours or for MK's or anyone else. You should strive to honestly get what motivates individual alliances not paint people with your brush or try to play back-seat quarterback.

Your problem (in my opinion) is you are trying to force everything into a dualistic frame that suits your purpose and view. But the world is actually far more complex and doens't fit when shoved like that. By trying to make everything (including this) about your crusade of whats wrong with Bob you overlook and dismiss the actual motivations and significances of specific events 'on the ground' so to speak. And you unfairly take away agency from the alliances actually involved.

[Monster]

The issue is, you can say "screw the OWF" all you want, but ultimately people take PR into their decision-making. Attack on SF with meh reason = acceptable PR damage for MK who initiates because people don't like SF.

MK controls plenty because the majority of alliances it is tied to(which have various connections as well, which are at MK's disposal consequently) are less proactive than they are. Those allies and the allies of allies they can influence are willing to defer on a lot of matters and MK can play allies against one another in order to pressure for a consensus that suits them in part to due to cultural cache, "cool guys". The attitude that hurts Planet Bob is that such a system of relations is allowed to exist and people become willing client states and forego any real ambition of wielding strength independently of the "cool guys." The influence of a central player prevents hatred within their sphere from being acted on. They are the main connector.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Roquentin

[Lurunin]

[quote name='Laslo Kenez' timestamp='1340034436' post='2987700']
A) they were an MDoAP ally, who declared to defend their CnG allies.
b) They made that offer before they really understood the process or the circumstances
c) Considering the alternative plans, you got lucky with just a few nations ghosting to hit you.

Go home.

Almost everyone other than those with a stake otherwise reckons that there is a massive element of aggression to what LSF did. We were happy to support The International either way, but whatever.
[/quote]

Ah MDoAP my apologies was going off something one hooligan member had told me back then

Also second part is complete bull considering Xanth came to my channel Wat,, month back and admitted the only reason he agreed to that peace agreement was so he could troll later on when he got confirmed help from INT. He specifically said he called in backup at that time to delay peace negotiations and to inflict extra last minute damage.

Also lol If you think i didn't know about said alternative plans. Believe me i was trying to think how best to handle the situation when my members were loving the war and were refusing the notion of peace at the time. Also i still. To this day say that I will never be able to fully repay neat back for what they did for us and I'll always remember that, they prevented a 2v1 In hooligans favor to turning into a 13v1 : NEAT

Finally I have to say that when you make a post at a certain alliance you would hope that its one of their members responding to you, not an ally...THAT is why i considered it damage control

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='OsRavan' timestamp='1340037875' post='2987761']
Rage all you want, and personally i'll only take it as conformation that everyone involved did the right thing. (I think int should be far more concerned about their actions if they ever find themselves in a position where you are actually congratulating them).
[/quote]
Since this is about Schattenmann rather than about this particular topic, I'll write a full reply in a blog later this afternoon.

Until then, I'll say this: if you're so shallow as to base who you think is right or wrong based on who Schattenmann is cheering for or against, then you're everything and more that I've ever accused you of, especially when we're talking about ignoring treaties. But I do appreciate it, I was starting to think all you C&G folks were serious when you say I'm irrelevant.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Schattenmann

[Laslo Kenez]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340040531' post='2987785']
I was starting to think all you C&G folks were serious when you say I'm irrelevant.
[/quote]

I was being serious

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1340040448' post='2987783']
Ah MDoAP my apologies was going off something one hooligan member had told me back then

Also second part is complete bull considering Xanth came to my channel Wat,, month back and admitted the only reason he agreed to that peace agreement was so he could troll later on when he got confirmed help from INT. He specifically said he called in backup at that time to delay peace negotiations and to inflict extra last minute damage.
[/quote]

I think that might have just been said to upset you, sorry to say

[quote]
Also lol If you think i didn't know about said alternative plans. Believe me i was trying to think how best to handle the situation when my members were loving the war and were refusing the notion of peace at the time. Also i still. To this day say that I will never be able to fully repay neat back for what they did for us and I'll always remember that, they prevented a 2v1 In hooligans favor to turning into a 13v1 : NEAT

Finally I have to say that when you make a post at a certain alliance you would hope that its one of their members responding to you, not an ally...THAT is why i considered it damage control
[/quote]

Yeah, they did a good job for you, we were ready and quite happy to come in.

I reply to that stuff because we were with Int no matter what they decided to do It's less damage control as just feeling quite involved myself.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Laslo Kenez

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340033615' post='2987686']
No one ever accused folks from the lulz alliances of deep political thinking, so it gets applause.
[/quote]
I don't consider GOONS a 'lulz' alliance, largely because I despise that word, but do you really think we would be as successful as we have been were we not deep political thinkers?

Edited June 18, 2012 by Sardonic

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1340042192' post='2987805']
I don't consider GOONS a 'lulz' alliance, largely because I despise that word, but do you really think we would be as successful as we have been were we not deep political thinkers?
[/quote]
Anyone who buys into the arguments from the likes of TLR, MK, Londo, and NG that moralists and micros are the cause of stagnation is deluded. If that's GOONS, so be it regardless of how successful you are.

[Tromp]

[quote name='Jgoods45' timestamp='1340002324' post='2987437']
[s]C&G[/s] MK above all else. Forever.
[/quote]

C&G: "The most subservient bloc on the world."