A Statement from Doomhouse

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Banedon' timestamp='1300380570' post='2667811']
GOONS, and the rest of the screaming mob, attacked NPO out of the blue because your side didn't get enough blood money from Karma. If a year's worth of reps wasn't enough, then there isn't any point in denying you just want us dead.

I'm sorry but we have no intention of dying. Not today, next month, or next year. We will fight this war in a manner of our own choosing, and if that means that we're still fighting this in January 2012, so be it. If you don't like how we choose to fight the war you started, that's your problem.
[/quote]
The reps in Karma were not case to give them a blank slate, they are not entitled to have people's opinions of them reset to factory standards just because they paid money to get out of a war. If NPO wanted to change people's opinions of them they needed reformat their franco-centric worldview and engage in diplomacy. For whatever reason they were too proud to apologize to the people they wronged, and don't give me that "you wanted them to lick your boots" crap, diplomacy in no way has to be degrading to one of the parties, especially if it is conducted in peacetime. To NPO's credit, I do see inklings of them moving in the right direction. It is my hope that they take the deal and after all is said and done, they can begin to improve themselves.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Sardonic

[D34th]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1300366349' post='2667621']
But I toned down the self-righteousness. You didn't even see the first draft.

As for our word, Pacifica doesn't have to trust our word. They need only trust the facts. What the hell do we gain by agreeing to X and then doing Y when they come out of peace mode?
[/quote]

May be because MK has a recent history of doing exactly the same things they were against previously?

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='greenacres' timestamp='1300380300' post='2667802']
Again, boo hoo. I'm crying on the inside. I really am.
[/quote]
If you're not into this, there's a water cooler where you can talk about less taxing stuff like favorite anime.

[neneko]

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1300380967' post='2667821']
May be because MK has a recent history of doing exactly the same things they were against previously?
[/quote]
This 'point' brought up once again and once again I think I going to have to leave without a answer to what this ill defined past is that haunts us.

Seriously if you people are going to use this as a party line can't you humor me with a answer so it seems like at least you think it's a valid point and not something you made up yourself.

Edited March 17, 2011 by neneko

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300380848' post='2667820']
The reps in Karma were not case to give them a blank slate, they are not entitled to have people's opinions of them reset to factory standards just because they paid money to get out of a war. If NPO wanted to change people's opinions of them they needed reformat their franco-centric worldview and engage in diplomacy. For whatever reason they were too proud to apologize to the people they wronged, and don't give me that "you wanted them to lick your boots" crap, diplomacy in no way has to be degrading to one of the parties, especially if it is conducted in peacetime. To NPO's credit, I do see inklings of them moving in the right direction. It is my hope that they take the deal and after all is said and done, they can begin to improve themselves.
[/quote]
First, diplomacy does not equate to apologizing for differences of opinion.

Second, once terms end in any given conflict then there is no precedent for any form of ongoing diplomatic relations between the prior victor and the defeated. At no point was anyone in NPO beholden to MK or GOONS or anyone else to be friendly to them or to give a damn about their opinions of them.

The NPO maintained diplomatic silence for a long period of time, even though it was truly unnecessary and evidently ineffective, in order to appease your side from Karma. The hubris and bravado that once accompanied (and in fact defined) every single government proclamation from the NPO has all but ceased to exist. In many ways the Pacifican culture, as an outward expression to the ignorant masses, was truncated by the loss in Karma.

To state that NPO didn't change while holding up a banner that supports direct hypocritical actions on your part is asinine.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1300381319' post='2667826']
This 'point' brought up once again and once again I think I going to have to leave without a answer to what this ill defined past is that haunts us.

Seriously if you people are going to use this as a party line can't you humor me with a answer so it seems like at least you think it's a valid point and not something you made up yourself.
[/quote]
What answer is that?

That Karma was initiated (and indeed named) as an attempt to stop the injustice of the great and horrible NPO in their ongoing oppression of the Cyberverse? That the imposing of restrictive peace terms and calls for disbandment and attempts to hold alliances in perpetual wars was so inhumane that you had to act in the interests of the smaller alliances of the Cyberverse and set yourselves up as martyrs and heroes for the befuddled masses? You mean things like that? Issues that fly directly in the face of hubris filled comments like the OP in which terms that are more or less equivalent to "fight the war our way right now or face war forever" are included?

Okay.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Ivan Moldavi

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1300358750' post='2667569']
This forum you speak of where NPO isn't whining, where would it be located?
[/quote]

If I'm whining about anything it's going to be about not being able to get a satisfactory war out of any of you spineless fungi!

[Shodemofi-NPO]

The OP was some nice !@#$%^&*. Pretty obviously !@#$%^&*, but a nice effort none the less.

[Ragashingo]

[quote]What the hell do we gain by agreeing to X and then doing Y when they come out of peace mode? [/quote]

Did you really just ask this stupid of a question? You gain everything you started this war for! If they trust you and you betray them it's not like they'd have any options left. It's better for them to stay where they are and keep their options open than to trust those that promised a better world only to declare Everything.Must.Die.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Ragashingo

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300381450' post='2667827']
First, diplomacy does not equate to apologizing for differences of opinion.

Second, once terms end in any given conflict then there is no precedent for any form of ongoing diplomatic relations between the prior victor and the defeated. At no point was anyone in NPO beholden to MK or GOONS or anyone else to be friendly to them or to give a damn about their opinions of them.

The NPO maintained diplomatic silence for a long period of time, even though it was truly unnecessary and evidently ineffective, in order to appease your side from Karma. The hubris and bravado that once accompanied (and in fact defined) every single government proclamation from the NPO has all but ceased to exist. In many ways the Pacifican culture, as an outward expression to the ignorant masses, was truncated by the loss in Karma.

To state that NPO didn't change while holding up a banner that supports direct hypocritical actions on your part is asinine.
[/quote]
It's this kind of attitude that leads to situations like the one NPO is in now, and should leave no question as to why they are where they are now. Perhaps if NPO had "given a damn" about the people they wronged then they wouldn't be in this situation.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300380848' post='2667820']
... and engage in diplomacy.
[/quote]
To add to what Moldavi said, that diplomacy indeed is a two way street.

As far as I am aware, you didnt ask for an embassy in our halls, nor did I saw you much in our irc avenues. Strange, considering how we with NpO were there when you incarnated, but ok. We didnt preach you about that, save yours then as well.

[montypython]

[quote name='Maelstrom Vortex' timestamp='1300382113' post='2667830']
If I'm whining about anything it's going to be about not being able to get a satisfactory war out of any of you spineless fungi!
[/quote]
LOLWUT

You should be whining about how your very own alliance won't give us a good fight, because that is quite clearly the case. Also, the statement "spineless fungi" is quite redundant, you feathered bird.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300380848' post='2667820']
The reps in Karma were not case to give them a blank slate, they are not entitled to have people's opinions of them reset to factory standards just because they paid money to get out of a war. If NPO wanted to change people's opinions of them they needed reformat their franco-centric worldview and engage in diplomacy. For whatever reason they were too proud to apologize to the people they wronged, and don't give me that "you wanted them to lick your boots" crap, diplomacy in no way has to be degrading to one of the parties, especially if it is conducted in peacetime. To NPO's credit, I do see inklings of them moving in the right direction. It is my hope that they take the deal and after all is said and done, they can begin to improve themselves.
[/quote]
This is bull. The Cult of Justitia--which was comprised of me and one other Vox guy at the time--was founded on Red as soon as Vox (NPO's 9-month enemy with spies left) suspended its charter in what most people viewed as me pissing in NPO's Cheerios one more time while they were stuck in peace terms. In fact, while we had an open hand to Pacifica, the relationship was antagonistic at first; this is the first post in their embassy on our forum following Cortath's displeasure that I used some logs of him [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=62405"]in an OWF thread[/url]:
[quote name='Schattenmann']
[22:38] <Cortath> Tell Schatt he has demonstrated his sincerity by log dumping.
[22:39] <Cortath> If he wants to make amends, he can try me out and see if it works.

We're not idiots, so of course I knew that Cortath would not be laughing at the Inside the Cult section having to do with his characterization of trade spam as member poaching; however, Cortath needs to grow up.
The quotes used in the article were all taken from #CoJ, a public channel, in the presence of a half dozen people. If Cortath or the Pacifican gov't as a whole thinks that the use of those logs constitutes a log dump, then it's going to be slow going. If Cortath expects some kind of apology, then it'll be no going--there's nothing to apologize for.

The Cult is sincere in its willingness to peacefully coexist with the NPO. Even if the Moldavi Doctrine has been rescinded, we recognize that NPO's mentality about the Red sphere won't change as fast as the Emperor's pen moves. We are intrinsically slow-growing, we're small, and we don't have aspirations of becoming the new big deal on Red--NPO has more silly, faster-growing alliances to worry about in that arena.

I hope that NPO can move beyond this puffy little incident, and I hope that you have a better sense of humor than your predecessor.[/quote]

NPO did not owe CoJ the time of day much less diplomatic relations or apologies or invitations to come sleepover and play Twister. We are adults. And even while we did not love each other, I worked to make relations with NPO better, not the other way around, and that's the way it should have been. NPO was defeated and wrecked, and had no reason to talk to anyone other than to make sure the latest round of reps was ready.
The Cult of Justitia are not conniving double-talkers, and when I said in Vox and in CoJ that the end of Karma meant a new time to reshape things, that did not mean marginalizing NPO for all time, it meant doing what is in my power to alter Pacfica's path by engaging them actively to bring about a relationship with PAcifica that benefited each of us, and if MK and Umbrella and GOONS were sitting around waiting for NPO to come make nice when NPO had already paid their dues, then maybe they should have taken initiative like Cult of Justitia. While you sat around waiting for the right moment to pounce out of paranoia, Coj's tactics by contrast have created an inclusive, egalitarian system on Red where the Senate is shared and rotated, and NPO votes for micro-AA candidates and supports trade. With me, the friggin' host of TWiP, and NPO.

The responsibility for this war and your actions rests squarely on your shoulders. Own it.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1300382377' post='2667834']
To add to what Moldavi said, that diplomacy indeed is a two way street.

As far as I am aware, you didnt ask for an embassy in our halls, nor did I saw you much in our irc avenues. Strange, considering how we with NpO were there when you incarnated, but ok. We didnt preach you about that, save yours then as well.
[/quote]
While I won't deny your role in helping our return you played the whole "pretending to be afk in IRC to avoid talking to somebody" game in IRC for the better part of a month with us so you'll have to forgive me if I didn't drop by for tea after karma. And yes, diplomacy is a two way street, a street which you seem to refuse to walk because of your hatred of the outside world.

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1300382636' post='2667837']
blah blah blah
[/quote]
That's great Schatt, perhaps they should have shown the same diplomatic zeal with other alliances. You say they paid their dues but obviously DH does not believe that. It's not a very good argument, karma was 2 years ago after all, they should have been bridge-building to ensure that there were no hard feelings, lest they leave themselves open to attack. Hate is a powerful motivator. If somebody hates you, and they see an opening, they'll take it. Hell, NPO took it plenty of times before Karma, they should know how this works.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Sardonic

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300382316' post='2667833']
It's this kind of attitude that leads to situations like the one NPO is in now, and should leave no question as to why they are where they are now. Perhaps if NPO had "given a damn" about the people they wronged then they wouldn't be in this situation.
[/quote]
First, I think you are correct. My attitude directly led to a lot of NPO's problems with the lesser alliances such as yours historically. I do not apologize for my hubris.

Second, it also points out the validity of my position entirely. I have no official say in NPO affairs. I haven't for "generations" now. The fact that people like myself, a warmonger !@#$%^& that would split you open and eat your children without batting an eye, are not the sort that are currently in control within Pacifica highlights the changes that have taken place over the years.

Regardless of that, no alliance should ever, under any circumstances, be forced to convey "feelings" of concern towards another alliance, especially once terms have ended. I don't give a damn about you or your alliance and I never will, I certainly can hope that the NPO maintains at least that portion of its cultural heritage to say the same. No amount of bullying or posturing on your end will change that.

Independence of thought is on trial in the Cyberverse these days. The idea that you have to care about what others think about you before you act independently, even if your actions have no bearing at all on the other party, is absurd.

You want the NPO to like you and all they could do was check the maybe box. So sad.

[Doitzel]

[quote name='neneko' timestamp='1300381319' post='2667826']
This 'point' brought up once again and once again I think I going to have to leave without a answer to what this ill defined past is that haunts us.

Seriously if you people are going to use this as a party line can't you humor me with a answer so it seems like at least you think it's a valid point and not something you made up yourself.
[/quote]
You sort of ignored me when I pointed out that your alliance appears to be pushing the envelope toward a perpetual war to keep NPO down. I mean, let's look at your DoW:

"We cannot allow any chance of a return to power by the New Pacific Order. For years they ruled with an iron fist. They engineered a multitude of first strike "curbstomps," the most grossly abusive among them being the glibly named Woodstock Masscre against the Green Protection Agency. Never one to face an enemy with an even remote chance of victory, and always one to beat on the weak and the vulnerable, the New Pacific Order was a true master of the first strike attack. They could not only beat down the weak, but they had maneuvered the politics of the day such that they could do so with impunity. "

Gosh. It sounds a lot like you're doing to them exactly what they did to others.

I think most people mistake MK and the other alliances of that coalition for the message promoted by Vox Populi, however -- the message that the masses usurped and bastardised (right down to the word 'karma' itself). Many on that side of the war expressed sympathy to our views but there was little officially set in stone aside from some implied support from Archon as far as MK stands. Umbrella was part of the old Hegemony, so once an enabler, always an enabler. GOONS is GOONS, no matter how much they try to deny it.

So on the whole I guess there's no real reason to be surprised. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[nippy]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300382710' post='2667839']
lesser alliances
[/quote]

o Moldavi.

[Branimir]

[quote name='Sardonic' timestamp='1300382648' post='2667838']And yes, diplomacy is a two way street, a street which you seem to refuse to walk because of your hatred of the outside world.[/quote]
If you believe that the tamed NPO leadership post "karma" and among the BR mostly composed of people that joined post "karma" and in vast majority werent around for many of things usually mentioned hate for the parts of the world was present-- then I will be very interesting to see your definition of what our attitudes will be towards those that attacked us out of the blue for no reason.

Laughed out laud.

We mended many bridges, and bettered many relations. Those which doors were closed to us of course, couldnt.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1300383135' post='2667841']
o Moldavi.
[/quote]
Indeed.

I guess you will somehow attempt to claim that even though the only time Pacifica has ever been beaten it was through a vast collective effort of mediocre alliances but that somehow those alliances individually were superior to the Order?

Of course you wouldn't attempt that. It would be ridiculous.

[nippy]

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1300383139' post='2667842']
I will be very interesting[/quote]
doubtful.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1300383139' post='2667842']
Laughed out laud. [/quote]
derp.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1300383139' post='2667842']
We mended many bridges, and bettered many relations. Those which doors were closed to us of course, couldnt.
[/quote]
MK's embassy much? Don't make laughed out laud.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='montypython' timestamp='1300382626' post='2667836']
LOLWUT

You should be whining about how your very own alliance won't give us a good fight, because that is quite clearly the case. Also, the statement "spineless fungi" is quite redundant, you feathered bird.
[/quote]

But I'm not, we're giving you such a good fight you're trying to trick us into an unwanted peace before we can claim our victory over you. And yes, it was intentionally redundant to highlight a specific trait of fungi which all you fungi share in common, that being spinelessness. I however, am not a bird. Shaddup and keep fightin.

You guys wanted everything to die, now we will give you your wish!

Unless that is you all wish to surrender on our terms.. then we can talk. I personally plan on warring with you folk til you realize just how disadvantageous this war has become to you.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[nippy]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300383407' post='2667843']
Indeed.

I guess you will somehow attempt to claim that even though the only time Pacifica has ever been beaten it was through a vast collective effort of mediocre alliances but that somehow those alliances individually were superior to the Order?

Of course you wouldn't attempt that. It would be ridiculous.
[/quote]

I guess you will somehow attempt to claim that the oh-so-wonderful Pacifica hasn't been hiding in peace mode over the past two months while a 'vast collective effort' of mediocre alliances has attempted to counter our 'lesser alliance' and have been surrendering to us, one by one?

Of course you wouldn't attempt that. It would be ridiculous.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' timestamp='1300380743' post='2667818']
I am just curious, because I have not seen them posted anywhere else, what exactly are your objectives in this war?
[/quote]
Anyone from the opposing side?

[Maelstrom Vortex]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1300383735' post='2667847']
I guess you will somehow attempt to claim that the oh-so-wonderful Pacifica hasn't been hiding in peace mode over the past two months while a 'vast collective effort' of mediocre alliances has attempted to counter our 'lesser alliance' and have been surrendering to us, one by one?

Of course you wouldn't attempt that. It would be ridiculous.
[/quote]

10% of our nations have remained in peace. You're a dimwit. 90% of us have been fighting. Including myself. You should just be quiet now and stop making yourself look more the fool by people who actually take note of such things. I know you are more intelligent than you're pretending.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1300383735' post='2667847']
I guess you will somehow attempt to claim that the oh-so-wonderful Pacifica hasn't been hiding in peace mode over the past two months while a 'vast collective effort' of mediocre alliances has attempted to counter our 'lesser alliance' and have been surrendering to us, one by one?

Of course you wouldn't attempt that. It would be ridiculous.
[/quote]
Ah, sidestep, nice move. *rollseyes*

The fact, as has been elucidated upon several times within this very thread (good job reading up btw) is that the percentage of nations within the NPO in PM is roughly equivalent to the percentage in MK and that such arguments from your side are pointless because the fallacy of your logic is easily dissected and put on display for all to see, as has also been accomplished several times within this very thread (did I mention how good a job you have done reading up?).