Imperial Decree - New Polar Order

[Zulchep]

I like Grub still, and posts like this one remind me why.

When STA went public with the Valhalla terms, even the frequently declaimed minion of evil chefjoe didn't cut off negotiations.

Is the new precedent set that when negotiating terms, any discussing them in public results in the end of negotiations?

Don't even, Haflinger. Comparing STA's situation with NPO's is ridiculous. Save for the Shark Wars, in which no reparations were received by STA, her enemies were given incredibly lenient terms, usually culminating in a complete white peace.

Don't you dare compare our situation to NPO's.

[Zangmonkey]

Polaris is absolutely correct in her assessment here.

As I stated in prior discussion on the topic: Our terms and agreements must be not be suited to the era we fought to end but to the future we intend to create.

Our intentions will be made clear, and the judgment we deserve made evident, by how we treat others and the cyberverse we form through that.

[MercyFallout]

And there is a difference between the fate of Polaris and the fate of Pacifica. We know you are a smart and honorable guy Grub, everyone knew you would lead Polaris in a brighter direction. Moo on the other hand, is still the same. There is no doubt in my mind that Pacifica would not try the same stunts. They have had their time to play their games, and now they must pay the consequences. If this means crippling them for a long time, so be it. We are Karma, not Mercy.

Hell no you aren't me.

But enough with the wordplay. Grub, you know I respect you even though I don't agree with you 100%. In theory, I would agree with your post 110%. Sadly, there is one factor that you haven't thought of as far as NPO goes. Polaris learned her lesson but Pacfica has not. Pacifica hasn't changed much of its policies or its mentality. I haven't seen any, at least. Until I see some, I do agree with the harsh terms. I do agree with the Karma (not the coalition, but rather the actual karma) that faces them. It took Polaris a bloody coup that tore some of the most die-hard Polars from their homes, a war that crushed us all, and reparations that crippled the proud Polar Order before indeed, a NEW Polar Order emerged. I don't know what it will take for Pacifica to begin anew and to abandon age-old policies of diplomacy. I hope it doesn't take Karma's massive, massive terms. I hope it doesn't take a massive coup d'etat. I hope it doesn't take another massive war. But until I see some change for the better, I don't think I can ever agree with letting Pacifica get not-as-devastating terms. I say this not out of hatred, anger, fear, nor vengeance. I say this as a former member of Pacifica who gave his nation's earliest bloody, sweat, and tears to protect. I say this because I am a former member of Pacifica who isn't happy with what his former home became. I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm not placing any blame, but there needs to be some change.

Then again, some on the other side of the coin also need to start shaping up and showing that they aren't the big bad boogey monster under the bed.

[cookavich]

You know grub, a simple "No u!" would of sufficed like so many other NPO posts. NPO has been given peace, and they reject them. End of that. Should this be a problem for you, well, im sure NPO could use some more men to fight in the trenches.

Thanks for this contribution to the thread, Slayer99.

[TehChron]

We never said they were super efficient, but they're at least just as efficient as some of their former enemies.

Our "wake up call" was deciding we didn't like what was going on around here about eight months ago. So we did something about it.

Im sorry? But what exactly was that wake up call? The accepting of reps that you found distasteful or something? That you participated in curbstomps but werent calling the shots? At least be honest that the reason you moved against the NPO was because you lot wanted the crown for yourselves, rather than dressing it up as some sort of moral imperative.

And No, George. Really. They are not efficient at all. At all, the banking system has only ever worked for those ludicrous shows of money being transferred. Thats about it.

[muffasamini]

I don't believe that Karma is trying to kill them in order to take power. Karma is giving them what they deserve.

You have much to learn.

Maybe if they would come out of their hiding in peace mode and actually fight things may change for them.

1. 2/3rds of us have less than 300 infra

3/4 of us have less than 1000 infra

We have over 400 members in our lowest strength division. We lost, and we lost through war. Dont you say that I havent fought yet.

2. For the bankers. So, if they just tomorrow came out of peace mode "things would change"? We'de just magically get peace? Ha ha, dont try.

[Marty McFly]

Nice post. Glad to see the wars against the NAAC and others have ended.

Might not always agree with what you say, but it is well written and I agree with most of this.

Our front in that ended September 2008.

[Azaghul]

So what exactly is supposed to be done about NPO hiding so much strength in peace mode?

I have little sympathy compared to the crap they put people through for merely defending allies. They get to keep all their wonders, they get to keep their sovereignty, they get to keep their government. It's less harsh than terms NPO has given and reasonable because they started the war in the first place.

[Sal Paradise]

I particularly scoffed at that section. I asked Grub to publicize Polar's shiny new Outlook on Life © and tell the world that those wars were over monnnnnths ago, but he wouldn't stick Polaris' neck out. It's easy now that Karma did the dirty work.

The Schatten Man is wise. Save for his judgment of eloquence.

[heggo]

I'm curious, if lighter terms are imposed, do you not believe NPO will just rise up like they did after the First Great War? [...] They have had their time to play their games, and now they must pay the consequences. If this means crippling them for a long time, so be it.

I think bringing up the specter of the NPO rising again to dominate and oppress the world is somewhat obtuse. The factors that held together the NPO's old blocs are gone now.

Consider: The aura of fear and invincibility that surrounded their name lives no more. The alliance leaders we have to today aren't quite so spineless- where they use to turn in any who would scheme against the NPO for hopes of a smile from the Emperor, now we see a field of leaders who would rather resist oppression than fawn over those who perpetuate it.

So why would the NPO need to be presented with ruinous peace terms? Their strength was not in their numbers so much as it was in the combined strength of them and their allies. Without their allies, they will not be able to return the world to the state so many on Karma fear they would.

What more, then, will crushing the NPO with such terms achieve that isolating them diplomatically cannot? Certainly, it wouldn't have much more effect than to drive out and ruin many of its constituent nations. No doubt, after facing such cruelty, many of these nations will be cast into the void, [ooc]deleted forever.[/ooc] Truly, that would make for a terrible and avoidable loss- especially so when you consider that many of those who would be loss were innocent of most charges leveled against the NPO, for surely most of those lost will not have been in positions of power.

Oh yes, and I should add that I have full faith that the leadership of the Karma alliances are competent enough to prevent a large pro NPO coalition from forming. To be honest, I find it amusing that nobody seems to mind the jab taken at the Karma leaders that is implicit in these "the NPO will rise again!" fear mongering arguments. For those arguments to be true, you have to assume that the leaders of the Karma alliances are utter fools and would accidentally line up behind the NPO again to reverse their victories. Evidently, the Karma nations who say that have little faith in the judgment and diplomatic abilities of their leaders...

[AnCapistan]

Nah, cripple them beyond recognition. It's the least that should be done in the name of karma. Even a cripple still exists, which is more then many of NPO's former enemies can say.

You know I'm gonna regret saying this but here it goes...

I don't remember the NPO ever disbanding an alliance. Yes they made Draconian Terms and punished alliances severely but never did they disband an alliance.

The alliances disbanded because they chose to.

Is Echelon being punished severely? Yes

Will they disband? I doubt it.

Sadly the alliances CHOSE to disband. Never did the NPO force an alliance to disband.

If someone can provide evidence to the contary I will take back this statement.

[Smacky]

If you cripple them beyond recognition, then you're just doing what they did to you. Then you're not breaking the cycle, you're helping create it just again. If Karma is going to set out with the goal to change CN, it isn't going to come from giving the same terms NPO gave other people. Then you're just helping contribute to the problem. It is the same thing just with a different mask.

Punish NPO if you must, but don't do it with such beyond things that destroy them completely. If you want change, then bring it but don't bring it as revenge gift wrapped up as sugary sweet named Karma when it is just the same thing by another name. I've seen Karma start out with the original goals but as time went on, more and more fell off the track and it is divided now. How is that help anyone reach their goal of changing anything?

No one denies NPO hasn't done things in the past but the argument is if you're doing the same things, how does that make you any better?

Grub said what I think better than I ever could. I do hope his words at least cause some to pause to and think at least, if not to have an effect.

Why should we be better? Heh. Your friends created this world we live in, they can learn to experience the other side of it.

[Heft]

Tell me, what reps have we taken in this war? Go ahead and factor in what we would get from NPO. Go on.

I'm not speaking about reps, I'm speaking about the attitude I constantly see here, especially in almost every post George makes. The attitude of assured superiority, the arrogance, the disrespect and discounting of other viewpoints, the revisionism of history to suit present needs. If anything, you guys are even more like what you've taken down now than you were before.

And of course that whole blatantly lying to so many of your allies for months on end.

[Master-Debater]

Sorry but no.

KARMA is not a bloc that after this war is going to turn into some major bloc to suppress the world. They will go their different ways and likely wind up at war with each other within one year.

They have no plans to turn into a new continuum or some new version of WUT of 1V.

They will go different ways. No more oppressing the little guy. No more hyper bloc looming over everything in the world and having all the sanctioned alliances banded together.

Any argument that Karma is forming some sort of super hyper bloc is idiotic.

NPO has earned every single bit of what they are getting. They were behind the killings of so many of the communities that you seem to be pushing saved. They sat by and supported their allies as they also did the same. Any argument that NPO isn’t getting what was coming to them is also, idiotic.

Echelon probably got more than they deserved but they are just as guilty as the rest of 1V and those who sat by and supported their actions.

Its NPO’s fault for doing what they did to get into this situation to begin with. They could have easily not started this war and not be in this position they are in. They knew what was coming and still tried to force an alliance to bend to their will.

Also: I was out for revenge on NPO. I wanted nothing more than to see NPO burn to the ground and be forced under the same terms that my friends have been forced to for the past few years. Karma does not have the same opinions as myself but I’m not going to lie.

[HeinousOne]

Polaris is absolutely correct in her assessment here.

As I stated in prior discussion on the topic: Our terms and agreements must be not be suited to the era we fought to end but to the future we intend to create.

Our intentions will be made clear, and the judgment we deserve made evident, by how we treat others and the cyberverse we form through that.

Pay attention to the boldened part folks. That was the vision when karma was just forming up. Some folks lost sight of that as the idea of vengeance began snake it's way into the definition of karma.

[Canik]

Why should we be better? Heh. Your friends created this world we live in, they can learn to experience the other side of it.

Because hypocrisy is a bad thing?

[Magnum T. Gundraw]

You have much to learn.

Karma doesn't need to take power. They already have it.

[Matthew Conrad]

I'm not speaking about reps, I'm speaking about the attitude I constantly see here, especially in almost every post George makes. The attitude of assured superiority, the arrogance, the disrespect and discounting of other viewpoints, the revisionism of history to suit present needs. If anything, you guys are even more like what you've taken down now than you were before.

And of course that whole blatantly lying to so many of your allies for months on end.

There is no revisionism. GtG specifically stated his regret in partaking in such actions. No one from Sparta, I assure you, has said we had no part in it. As I have stated previously, this is factored into the fact since we feel no need to take any reps because it isn't our place. Will we support the allies who stood with us on the field of battle? Absolutely.

[muffasamini]

Pacifica hasn't changed much of its policies or its mentality. I haven't seen any, at least. Until I see some, I do agree with the harsh terms.

Oh dear lord where have you been. Try an almost complete policy revision and diplomatic mindset. Try the removal of the doctrine that defined ourselves for many of our members. Try the dozen threads in our forum about (I'll quote the titles) 'What we have done wrong" "Poll:New Home Page" (many find it too arrogant) and others. I dont know really what you need, but if all of our IO's hadnt personally apologized for what has happened, and the entire alliance wasnt committed to re-thinking our methods, we wouldnt be as coherent as we are now. Do you really think we can go through something like this without change?

[menwearpink135]

Hell no you aren't me.

But enough with the wordplay. Grub, you know I respect you even though I don't agree with you 100%. In theory, I would agree with your post 110%. Sadly, there is one factor that you haven't thought of as far as NPO goes. Polaris learned her lesson but Pacfica has not. Pacifica hasn't changed much of its policies or its mentality. I haven't seen any, at least. Until I see some, I do agree with the harsh terms. I do agree with the Karma (not the coalition, but rather the actual karma) that faces them. It took Polaris a bloody coup that tore some of the most die-hard Polars from their homes, a war that crushed us all, and reparations that crippled the proud Polar Order before indeed, a NEW Polar Order emerged. I don't know what it will take for Pacifica to begin anew and to abandon age-old policies of diplomacy. I hope it doesn't take Karma's massive, massive terms. I hope it doesn't take a massive coup d'etat. I hope it doesn't take another massive war. But until I see some change for the better, I don't think I can ever agree with letting Pacifica get not-as-devastating terms. I say this not out of hatred, anger, fear, nor vengeance. I say this as a former member of Pacifica who gave his nation's earliest bloody, sweat, and tears to protect. I say this because I am a former member of Pacifica who isn't happy with what his former home became. I'm not pointing any fingers, I'm not placing any blame, but there needs to be some change.

Then again, some on the other side of the coin also need to start shaping up and showing that they aren't the big bad boogey monster under the bed.

I agree with this man right here.

If Pacifica was to show change, of course I would believe they need lighter terms and less punishment. But I have seen no change in them.

[Deadshot]

Truly a wonderfully put together message. Thank you for that AlmightyGrub. In my opinion, Polaris has done well being in the middle of a precarious situation and has displayed their commitment to their ideals in spades.

o/ Polaris, may you continue to be a beacon of light for all those who look upon you.

[HeinousOne]

Karma doesn't need to take power. They already have it.

Oh, and how some of them just cant wait to feel what it is like to fully wield that power. Some show they did not hate NPO but were merely jealous of them.

[Kochers]

I have to say that, as an NADCer, I have always had a large vendetta against the NpO and (a smaller) one against the NPO. However, today, Grub has not only earned my respect, but my admiration. No matter what you do, I know you will have the best interest of your alliance, but altimately the overall CN community at heart.

[Atanatar]

Polaris, you have much growth yet to come. Shame this growth must be the result of intense pain to you and yours. For example, I would expect you to be much more enthusiastic for NPO, MCXA, and Echelon getting their just deserts for your treatment. How ever, I guess the motions must be made for political maneuvering.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Atanatar

[LiquidMercury]

Why should we be better? Heh. Your friends created this world we live in, they can learn to experience the other side of it.

Because we are better then them, that is why.