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Dimitri227

The Real Issue facing CN

61 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Maybe I should spend this post to talk about the largest elephant in the room for CN right now and before you ask, it’s not the micro alliance drama or the hegemony of NPO/Oculus/CN Loominarty but this:

Why are the rates for tech so crappy?

Now before you guys start throwing pixel nukes at me or anyone else let me tell you something that I have observed from snippets of my early days here on Planet Bob:

  • Before all of this, sellers usually sell tech for a while until their infra is enough to produce money enough to fill a 5 or 6 slots of tech payments within 10, 20 or even 30 days.
  • Once they graduate from this, they proceed to start buying tech and hope that they have enough to buy those wonders that only tech selling peasants like me could ever dream of before the once-or-twice-every-year-war happens and somehow they lose most or sometimes all their tech and infra depending on which alliance they are fighting in.
  • And some nations go down in CN history to become one the largest nations here on the planet and become the infamous upper tier of many alliances and one even managed to reach the very top of the ladder: the “eternal” nation ruled by CubaQuerida.

Now in this present day and age, I and many prospective rulers who desired to become one of the infamous upper tier nations, are now stuck in tech selling boredom not because we were forced to, but because even if we bought at today’s rates, it would all vanish like the wind once the planet falls into a global war and the vicious cycle of rebuying and losing tech would continue unabated.

How the hell did this even start? What started this stupid idea that it would be for the best of smaller nations to sell at these hopeless 6/100 rates and even 9/100? Why is it that only 9/300, 9/200 and 6/200 rates only occur on the larger alliances (to the best of my knowledge)? Don’t the smaller nations realise that these currents rates will sentence them to this vicious cycle until the apocalypse of Planet Bob? If this isn’t the biggest elephant in the room, then what is?

 

I’ll end my complaint here, and let those who believe they have better knowledge of politics to ponder why all of this started.

Edited by Dimitri227

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6/100 is the most cash and tech that can be sent in a single aid package without a FAC. anyone who is buying at 6/100 should have no problem buying at 9/100. the reason you wont see a better price then that as a selling nation is because it would take to long for the deal to get done. so long as there are 'nations' out there content with sending 100 tech out each slot every 10 days without getting cash in return, everyone not being 'gifted' tech by those nations needs to acquire tech as fast as possible not even to keep up with them but to not fall further behind.

 

as a member of Umbrella perhaps you should ask your alliance mates about all the 'gifted' tech they are getting.

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I've actually addressed much of this with the Producerist ideology. You can find the basics in this essay:

 

 

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At a certain point, most alliances have accepted defeat as the status quo. Most nations are not utilizing their slots at all, so the few that actually participate in tech dealing get an extreme competitive edge. There's also a lack of understanding of how beneficial tech actually is v. the minor amount of money a nation can reasonably expect to get in foreign aid. Most long term sellers(and even short term growing sellers that are back collecting efficiently) can easily get more money from their collections than they can expect to get from foreign aid unless they can expect to receive six slots of 9 mil as "free money". The game mechanisms are well known at this point and it's not as if good trace circles or good econ generals or proper improvement swapping are secrets guarded by dragons or anything.

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8 hours ago, Dimitri227 said:

Maybe I should spend this post to talk about the largest elephant in the room for CN right now and before you ask, it’s not the micro alliance drama or the hegemony of NPO/Oculus/CN Loominarty but this:

Why are the rates for tech so crappy?

Now before you guys start throwing pixel nukes at me or anyone else let me tell you something that I have observed from snippets of my early days here on Planet Bob:

  • Before all of this, sellers usually sell tech for a while until their infra is enough to produce money enough to fill a 5 or 6 slots of tech payments within 10, 20 or even 30 days.
  • Once they graduate from this, they proceed to start buying tech and hope that they have enough to buy those wonders that only tech selling peasants like me could ever dream of before the once-or-twice-every-year-war happens and somehow they lose most or sometimes all their tech and infra depending on which alliance they are fighting in.
  • And some nations go down in CN history to become one the largest nations here on the planet and become the infamous upper tier of many alliances and one even managed to reach the very top of the ladder: the “eternal” nation ruled by CubaQuerida.

Now in this present day and age, I and many prospective rulers who desired to become one of the infamous upper tier nations, are now stuck in tech selling boredom not because we were forced to, but because even if we bought at today’s rates, it would all vanish like the wind once the planet falls into a global war and the vicious cycle of rebuying and losing tech would continue unabated.

How the hell did this even start? What started this stupid idea that it would be for the best of smaller nations to sell at these hopeless 6/100 rates and even 9/100? Why is it that only 9/300, 9/200 and 6/200 rates only occur on the larger alliances (to the best of my knowledge)? Don’t the smaller nations realise that these currents rates will sentence them to this vicious cycle until the apocalypse of Planet Bob? If this isn’t the biggest elephant in the room, then what is?

 

I’ll end my complaint here, and let those who believe they have better knowledge of politics to ponder why all of this started.

This whole argument about what is a fair tech rate is stupid. They're all fair, they all work. 6-9/100 is a great rate for new sellers. 9/300 is a great rate for new buyers. I've even handed out tons of tech for free. This is a non-issue. 

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Posted (edited)

It takes just as much effort for a larger nation to send an aid package of $9m as it takes for a smaller nation to send one aid package of tech. So that seems like equal exchange to me, one slot for one slot. Since time for slots clearing is what the real limitation on tech deals is, both sides agreeing to do deals based on equal slot usage time rather than the money makes sense.

 

For some of these rates you mention, the seller ends up having to do 3 times the work for each deal and tie up a slot 3 times as long paying back just one slot of aid. If a larger nation has a huge reserve of money, how much money they can fit into the slot doesn't matter. Some nations use the increase in how much aid can be sent per slot to mostly focus on using the lower tier to build up the upper tier, but many smaller alliances value each member and want them to succeed. Some alliances just aid bomb new members until they're big enough they don't need to do tech deals, since for them its not just about personal growth. Its about growing the alliance, which includes getting new members built up to a level where they'll be useful in war.

 

I guess the difference might have to do with some bigger alliances having so many members, they don't value each one the same way. So a bigger alliance might want a tech selling class of nations, without caring much for the personal growth of the nation. A smaller alliance has less members, so the alliance becomes stronger by making each one a powerful nation for anyone to deal with if they attack in that NS tier.

Edited by Noctis Lucis Caelum

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Auctor said:

At a certain point, most alliances have accepted defeat as the status quo. Most nations are not utilizing their slots at all, so the few that actually participate in tech dealing get an extreme competitive edge. There's also a lack of understanding of how beneficial tech actually is v. the minor amount of money a nation can reasonably expect to get in foreign aid. Most long term sellers(and even short term growing sellers that are back collecting efficiently) can easily get more money from their collections than they can expect to get from foreign aid unless they can expect to receive six slots of 9 mil as "free money". The game mechanisms are well known at this point and it's not as if good trace circles or good econ generals or proper improvement swapping are secrets guarded by dragons or anything.

they may not be secrets but let me tell you buddy it's hard to find a trade circle that doesn't fall apart due to nations disappearing in this age

Edited by Neo Uruk
had a bit of ooc in ic

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I haven't used an aid slot in what feels like forever

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9 hours ago, Dimitri227 said:

 If this isn’t the biggest elephant in the room, then what is?

 

 

This is a political simulator that some folks believe is a war game. As a war game it is a steaming pile of excrement. As a political simulator - combined with the forums - it is not half bad.

 

( which of course leads you to the corollary that this is a game that can be won - which it can not [ with the exception that *if* it could be won das birds already did it and the rest of us just don't know it or won't admit it ] )

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2 hours ago, Master Hakai said:

I haven't used an aid slot in what feels like forever

 

Too much effort...

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12 hours ago, Dimitri227 said:

How the hell did this even start? What started this stupid idea that it would be for the best of smaller nations to sell at these hopeless 6/100 rates and even 9/100? Why is it that only 9/300, 9/200 and 6/200 rates only occur on the larger alliances (to the best of my knowledge)? Don’t the smaller nations realise that these currents rates will sentence them to this vicious cycle until the apocalypse of Planet Bob?


Ok I'm confused. Are you saying 6/200 rates would be better for sellers than 6/100? That doesn't make any sense to me.. they have to send twice as much tech and use another aid slot or wait an extra 10 days which would decrease the amount of profits they're making. 9/100 - 6/100 is the best deal a seller can get. Some may find it boring to sell tech for a year or so before being able to safely make the switch to buying but.. personally I didn't mind my time as a seller at all. I knew I was helping my alliance and I had more to do then than I do now as far as building my nation goes. Now I just collect, send money for tech. Rinse & repeat. When you're in the selling stage you get to do a lot more buying wonders & what-not.

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1 minute ago, Canik said:


Ok I'm confused. Are you saying 6/200 rates would be better for sellers than 6/100? That doesn't make any sense to me.. they have to send twice as much tech and use another aid slot or wait an extra 10 days which would decrease the amount of profits they're making. 9/100 - 6/100 is the best deal a seller can get. Some may find it boring to sell tech for a year or so before being able to safely make the switch to buying but.. personally I didn't mind my time as a seller at all. I knew I was helping my alliance and I had more to do then than I do now as far as building my nation goes. Now I just collect, send money for tech. Rinse & repeat. When you're in the selling stage you get to do a lot more buying wonders & what-not.

This this this. I advocate for 9mil for 100 sales

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FAC and DRA should almost always be your first wonders.

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most likely because the game is dead.

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Blackatron is going to come up in here and give you a lecture, fyi.

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Here's a table:
 

Quote

 

Deal type

# aid packages

Seller Profit per deal

Profit per slot

Tech per slot

Seller profit, 6 slots

Buyer gain, 6 slots

Cost per 100 tech

Per year tech gain

Per year profit

Per year cost

$6/100 tech

2

4,500,000

2,250,000

50

13,500,000

300

6,000,000

10,950

492,750,000

657,000,000

$9/100 tech

2

7,500,000

3,750,000

50

22,500,000

300

9,000,000

10,950

821,250,000

985,500,000

$6/200 tech

3

3,000,000

1,000,000

67

6,000,000

400

3,000,000

14,600

219,000,000

438,000,000

$9/200 tech

3

6,000,000

2,000,000

67

12,000,000

400

4,500,000

14,600

438,000,000

657,000,000

$9/300 tech

4

4,500,000

1,125,000

75

6,750,000

450

3,000,000

16,425

246,375,000

492,750,000

$18/300 tech

5

13,500,000

2,700,000

60

16,200,000

360

6,000,000

13,140

591,300,000

788,400,000

Free tech

1

0

0

100

0

600

0

21,900

0

0

Free cash

1

9,000,000

9,000,000

0

54,000,000

0

N/A

0

1,971,000,000

1,971,000,000


 

 

How are lower rates worse for new nations? In terms of speed, they gain cash at less than half the rate on 6/200 compared to 6/100, when they do switch to buying they will gain tech at only 4/3rds of the rate; hardly a massive improvement.

 

The Cost should really be a non-factor, a nation that is switching to buying should ideally be in a position to pick up the WRC soon after, so should have in the region of 8K infra and all/close to all the lower tier econ wonders.

 

14 hours ago, Canik said:

Some may find it boring to sell tech for a year or so before being able to safely make the switch to buying but.. personally I didn't mind my time as a seller at all. I knew I was helping my alliance and I had more to do then than I do now as far as building my nation goes. Now I just collect, send money for tech. Rinse & repeat. When you're in the selling stage you get to do a lot more buying wonders & what-not.

Fully agreed. Many are desperate to move on from selling because they just want to be bigger, and because many hold anti-small/new nation attitudes, but there is no reason why it is more entertaining to be big than small.

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Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, Canik said:


Ok I'm confused. Are you saying 6/200 rates would be better for sellers than 6/100? That doesn't make any sense to me.. they have to send twice as much tech and use another aid slot or wait an extra 10 days which would decrease the amount of profits they're making. 9/100 - 6/100 is the best deal a seller can get. Some may find it boring to sell tech for a year or so before being able to safely make the switch to buying but.. personally I didn't mind my time as a seller at all. I knew I was helping my alliance and I had more to do then than I do now as far as building my nation goes. Now I just collect, send money for tech. Rinse & repeat. When you're in the selling stage you get to do a lot more buying wonders & what-not.

You're looking at this backwards. A seller that wants to transition into a buyer is screwed by that rate because it will take them so long to acrew a reasonable level of tech that they can't particularly hope to ever exceed solidly midtier. If you're buying at 9mil/100 today you won't ever really get a competitive edge, so a seller that knows he will be competing for tech in the future then is stuck with a situation where he can be a strong lower tier nation that just ships out tech at that rate or he can become a weak midtier nation that gets rolled silly.

 

The very temporary benefit for the first six months of that nation's existence comes at a cost of ever being competitive with anyone with tech already stacked up buying at that 9mil/100 rate.

 

The cumulative effect of it gets more extreme in that nations that progress in skill end up never progressing in war ranges, so higher skill rulers end up feeding on lower skill rulers stuck in the same tier with them.

Edited by Auctor

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New nations should be paid fairly but they shouldn't try to transition to buyers as quickly as possible either. Sitting at 4999 and working at wonders while producing tech is smarter, or else you end up selling off several thousand infra after you get attacked like one alliance leader recently did.

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Well yeah. Staying in a strength range below your skill range ensures the fewest possible challenges.

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There is no reason not to pay fair rates to seller making their way to 4999 and collecting up wonders, once they are in that zone and wondered up they should have very little issues fighting and rebuilding. After that whether they build higher, continue as they are or switch to being a tech bank should be a decision about what is best for them and the alliance.

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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, Auctor said:

Well yeah. Staying in a strength range below your skill range ensures the fewest possible challenges.

 

It's not so much a matter of skill as it is unnecessarily climbing into a range where people have more tech, wonders and warchest than you do.

Edited by Immortan Junka

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The short term effects suggest it wouldn't be, but as the long term effects have been exactly that. Being in the middle tier in the way this world runs is brutal and punishes anyone that fights wars in a way that being lower tier doesn't. It's a risk calculation and I'm not particularly faulting people that have chosen less risk, because that's rewarded and expected in this world. But it does mean that younger and younger nations have fewer and fewer expectations that they will be able to compete if they are founded today and 6mil/100 is part of that vicious cycle that penalizes progression through such slow growth that it's not worth it to most contemplative rulers.

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Posted (edited)

There is political value to being a (unionized) tech producer, whereas once you become a tech buyer you are essentially competing with other buyers who are stronger than you. It's simply foolish to quickly become a buyer without investing in a full suite of wonders, spies, etc first, and many of us enjoy being permanent producers.

Edited by Immortan Junka

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This is more complicated than it needs to be.

 

From an individual sense tech dealing rates are low priority, from an alliance point of view, the actual tech rate is irrelevant. Ensuring there is some kind of tech dealing aka slots being filled, is far more beneficial. This ensures some kind of systematic growth for larger number of peeps. Otherwise you create a situation where 3 to 5 players grow and the rest become stale.

 

Hence maintaining activity aka slots filled, creating wider growth where you have mid/higher tier you can then have a small number of people staying active in some sense to push forward an fa agenda, make "friends" and lead the alliance. 

 

 

 

 

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I don't even know where to begin on that one.

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