Lucius Optimus Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Libertarianism is...sigh* Destabilizing the world once again. With posts by the recently deceased-then-returned Sephiroth, duels escalating conflict and strife, and The Imperium of SuperNovaX trying to hold it all together; it looks as though a fresh wave of LPC wars may be on the way. All this going on mere weeks after LPC was seemingly absorbed by ISX. Libertarianism is an unstable philosophy, and I respectfully believe it impossible to control this Libertarian Party in the way Sephiroth wants to. Order must prevail, only so much "liberty" as they call it can be granted to the mob before it gives way to tyranny. Be it tyranny within or without, the Libertarian elements of Bob are full of it. I personally believe a confederation of alliances, headed by a king or emperor would serve the cause of Liberty much more than what the Libertarians are trying to do. As for ISX. Junka I don't think you can convince me that you can be imperial producerist and Libertarian at the same time, but you can try.... I submit to you the leaders of Bob; that a stable, peaceful libertarian state cannot and will never exist. Edited January 15, 2017 by Lucius Optimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 46 minutes ago, Lucius Optimus said: Libertarianism is...sigh* Destabilizing the world once again. With posts by the recently deceased-then-returned Sephiroth, duels escalating conflict and strife, and The Imperium of SuperNovaX trying to hold it all together; it looks as though a fresh wave of LPC wars may be on the way. All this going on mere weeks after LPC was seemingly absorbed by ISX. Libertarianism is an unstable philosophy, and I respectfully believe it impossible to control this Libertarian Party in the way Sephiroth wants to. Order must prevail, only so much "liberty" as they call it can be granted to the mob before it gives way to tyranny. Be it tyranny within or without, the Libertarian elements of Bob are full of it. I personally believe a confederation of alliances, headed by a king or emperor would serve the cause of Liberty much more than what the Libertarians are trying to do. As for ISX. Junka I don't think you can convince me that you can be imperial producerist and Libertarian at the same time, but you can try.... I submit to you the leaders of Bob; that a stable, peaceful libertarian state cannot and will never exist. And I submit to you that both Junka and Sephiroth seem to exhibit traits of tyranny over liberty and any claims of libertarianism seem most suspect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hitchcock Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 you micros have a bright future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said: you micros have a bright future Let's hope so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razgriz24 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 8 hours ago, General Gorgoth said: And I submit to you that both Junka and Sephiroth seem to exhibit traits of tyranny over liberty and any claims of libertarianism seem most suspect Spot on, son. Anyone who claims to be libertarian and doesn't invoke Hayek or Ron Paul several times, is a fraud. It is not libertarianism that is causing the problems, it is socialists in libertarian clothing that keep peeing in the bathwater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Razgriz24 said: Spot on, son. Anyone who claims to be libertarian and doesn't invoke Hayek or Ron Paul several times, is a fraud. It is not libertarianism that is causing the problems, it is socialists in libertarian clothing that keep peeing in the bathwater. Well don't knock Socialism too much. Socialist ideas in moderation are brilliant such as in social democracy with a welfare state so everyone has their basic needs met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razgriz24 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 23 minutes ago, General Gorgoth said: Well don't knock Socialism too much. Socialist ideas in moderation are brilliant such as in social democracy with a welfare state so everyone has their basic needs met. I treat socialism like a blowfish... The whole thing will kill you and enslave the masses, except for that one tiny piece of meat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 52 minutes ago, Razgriz24 said: I treat socialism like a blowfish... The whole thing will kill you and enslave the masses, except for that one tiny piece of meat. No actually that is very much just capitalism. The masses are enslaved and a handful of CEOs and such keep most of the money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) I'm still to angry about how I heard about this aNiMaLz/Monsters Inc to have read your post. With my once reliable member leaving and telling me its because of the sides in the war I had yet to hear about. This has pretty much made me give up. The way I see it is an alliance leader needs at least one dependable member if they want growth potential. After I solve my current issue, I'll come up with a great rebuttal to this non-argument you've made against Libertarianism. Libertarianism is as God intended, Government is inherently evil and wishes to replace God.. Edited January 15, 2017 by Sephiroth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Optimus Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 41 minutes ago, Sephiroth said: I'm still to angry about how I heard about this aNiMaLz/Monsters Inc to have read your post. With my once reliable member leaving and telling me its because of the sides in the war I had yet to hear about. This has pretty much made me give up. The way I see it is an alliance leader needs at least one dependable member if they want growth potential. After I solve my current issue, I'll come up with a great rebuttal to this non-argument you've made against Libertarianism. Libertarianism is as God intended, Government is inherently evil and wishes to replace God.. I don't want to replace anything. A confederation if states ensures that the states are run as they wish. This helps ensure the liberty of the individual. So you are telling me you believe anarchy is the way? That a degree of national government is not nessessary to preserve liberty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Lucius Optimus said: I don't want to replace anything. A confederation if states ensures that the states are run as they wish. This helps ensure the liberty of the individual. So you are telling me you believe anarchy is the way? That a degree of national government is not nessessary to preserve liberty? What I announced the LPC to be is essentially a confederation of groups claiming to libertarian leaning. Do I think Junka's alliance libertarian on the inside? No I don't and I don't care much unless it becomes a problem. LPC or Nations of Anarchy are bunch of sovereign alliances and states, each of them able to act on their own. What they hold in common is portray themselves as Anarchists and Libertarians with their public policies. There is one flavor of Anarchism I know is the real Libertarian one, however if alliances strive towards freedom and learn about idealogies which ensure them; then they can join. As for the LPC is concerned, alliances are banned from tech raiding. Since it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. What goes on inside an alliance are internal policies and members are there due to voluntary association. If you offer to cook food for someone, your obligation to fulfil your commitment doesn't violate your freedom not to cook. Members are free to move to another LPC if they feel their freedom isn't respected where they are. I haven't heard any complaints from SNX members about their freedom being violated. However former members of SNX are welcome to join us. As to your comment on freedom best being served with a confederation led by leader, who serves them by leading them down the Libertarian Path; you would be correct. That was pretty much how the LPC was before I left, except I was just de facto leader. People looked to me for leadership and listened to what I asked out of respect. When I left there was a void and Junka tried to fill it. However with an actual Libertarian in the Triumvir, if I remained active the LPC would naturally change back to Libertarianism. However after losing my VP, who I woke up to his resignation in response to this aNiMaLz/Mi fight; I'm not sure I'm feeling it anymore. ericsw convinced me to make the LPC great again, then leaves right after I become a leader in it. With no members on my own AA, I've always had the belief someone needs at least one reliable member willing to follow them in order to have a viable alliance. Somehow I think this Mi/aNiMaLz War will cause the LPC to revert to how it was before I suddenly had some misguided hope of fixing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alonso Quixano Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 13 hours ago, Lucius Optimus said: Libertarianism is...sigh* Destabilizing the world once again. With posts by the recently deceased-then-returned Sephiroth, duels escalating conflict and strife, and The Imperium of SuperNovaX trying to hold it all together; it looks as though a fresh wave of LPC wars may be on the way. All this going on mere weeks after LPC was seemingly absorbed by ISX. Libertarianism is an unstable philosophy, and I respectfully believe it impossible to control this Libertarian Party in the way Sephiroth wants to. Order must prevail, only so much "liberty" as they call it can be granted to the mob before it gives way to tyranny. Be it tyranny within or without, the Libertarian elements of Bob are full of it. I personally believe a confederation of alliances, headed by a king or emperor would serve the cause of Liberty much more than what the Libertarians are trying to do. As for ISX. Junka I don't think you can convince me that you can be imperial producerist and Libertarian at the same time, but you can try.... I submit to you the leaders of Bob; that a stable, peaceful libertarian state cannot and will never exist. What destabilizing has there been? One duel? More posting on philosophy? If you've read through some threads you'd see that Sepiroth is trying to old it together. Asking minc to forgive animalz reps for overreacting to a duel that one of their members demanded of minc. I think you are trying to cause more strife with a one sided view than anything else. Now let me debunk your post, point by point. ISX did seemingly absorb the LPC, but that in itself was a destabilizing factor for ISX, and the LPC. I wont begrudge either side (anymore) of trying to bring an end to constant warfare; though I will begrudge them trying to fit two different playing styles into one 'bloc'. It destabilized the LPC by cutting off, and neutering the relationships each signatory had with each other before the end of the war. I think it was a masterful stroke by ISX to destabilize LPC, then scoop up the pieces, and play each other off of the other. By trying to make the world a "better" place, ISX created more strife if any of the founding members came back, and tried to keep the coalition together. So by trying to keep themselves safe by colonizing the LPC, ISX made themselves weaker by taking in their enemies. I wont entirely disagree with you that Libertarianism is unstable, but will ask you to focus on more of the stable aspects of giving individual freedoms to nations, and giving them the freedom to figure out the world themselves. Junka can not explain it to you, because it's not compatible. All you will get is unsubstantive responses about propaganda why the ISX created producerism, and why they wont let anyone take it away. I submit to you that you are wrong, that a libertarian state can exisit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sephiroth said: What I announced the LPC to be is essentially a confederation of groups claiming to libertarian leaning. Do I think Junka's alliance libertarian on the inside? No I don't and I don't care much unless it becomes a problem. LPC or Nations of Anarchy are bunch of sovereign alliances and states, each of them able to act on their own. What they hold in common is portray themselves as Anarchists and Libertarians with their public policies. There is one flavor of Anarchism I know is the real Libertarian one, however if alliances strive towards freedom and learn about idealogies which ensure them; then they can join. As for the LPC is concerned, alliances are banned from tech raiding. Since it violates the Non-Aggression Principle. What goes on inside an alliance are internal policies and members are there due to voluntary association. If you offer to cook food for someone, your obligation to fulfil your commitment doesn't violate your freedom not to cook. Members are free to move to another LPC if they feel their freedom isn't respected where they are. I haven't heard any complaints from SNX members about their freedom being violated. However former members of SNX are welcome to join us. As to your comment on freedom best being served with a confederation led by leader, who serves them by leading them down the Libertarian Path; you would be correct. That was pretty much how the LPC was before I left, except I was just de facto leader. People looked to me for leadership and listened to what I asked out of respect. When I left there was a void and Junka tried to fill it. However with an actual Libertarian in the Triumvir, if I remained active the LPC would naturally change back to Libertarianism. However after losing my VP, who I woke up to his resignation in response to this aNiMaLz/Mi fight; I'm not sure I'm feeling it anymore. ericsw convinced me to make the LPC great again, then leaves right after I become a leader in it. With no members on my own AA, I've always had the belief someone needs at least one reliable member willing to follow them in order to have a viable alliance. Somehow I think this Mi/aNiMaLz War will cause the LPC to revert to how it was before I suddenly had some misguided hope of fixing it. Not misguided. Minc and aNiMaLz were always all over the place and you created LPC which was a force to be reckoned with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 The problem isn't libertarianism but the egos of the party's leadership. Methrage, I applaud you for initially making efforts to bury the hatchet but you'll forgive me for questioning your intentions given you're advising alliances to attack us. I'm held accountable to nearly forty members as well as to my allies so I'm inclined to adopt a peaceful disposition here but I welcome conflict if you insist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hitchcock Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 28 minutes ago, General Gorgoth said: Not misguided. Minc and aNiMaLz were always all over the place and you created LPC which was a force to be reckoned with The LPC created itself at a time when it was needed. It's existence outlived it's purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Gorgoth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Lord Hitchcock said: The LPC created itself at a time when it was needed. It's existence outlived it's purpose. What purpose was that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roal36 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Lucius your ideology (the one you support) is a sound one and is actually followed by great many alliances macro and micro. But that said I don't agree with your post completely. Libertarian is a good and completely peaceful ideology if the followers of it don't try to interfere in exterior issues. The problem comes when say a Nation A fighting nations in an alliance Beta decides to flee and seek asylum in a liberitarian alliance called Unallaince. The Beta will continue to pound the nation to death and Unalliance will intervene and try to mediate and its here that the problem blows up. Liberitarianism is a safe concept and a non violent ideology if the alliances keep to themselfs and limit their outside interaction for strictly non military purposes. There are some Libertarian alliances that don't hog any lime light in OWF or appear in the war screens in-game. In my view both LPCN and Posse can't called libertarian because they require members to join a certain colour group and/or limit the voting choices for senators election. 32 minutes ago, SirWilliam said: The problem isn't libertarianism but the egos of the party's leadership. Agreed. Existence of Liberitarian alliances like LSF shows that the philosophy has no problems. Edited January 15, 2017 by Roal36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hitchcock Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, General Gorgoth said: What purpose was that? The original concept was to allow any ruler to play how they wanted without being sanctioned. Politics included big whale alliances with no hands in the cookie jar to sanction nations (and alliances) just because another whale alliance asked them to. M Inc never really felt the issue, but animalz wasn't as tamed back then and so they were continually sanctioned on every color. This led LN, animalz, CA, and M Inc to form and produce a senator on brown (who had a seat voided because a member from asi set up a bunch of proxys in some pineapple alliance). It worked. The problem was that thereafter our goals and ideals shifted in different directions. The very principle of libertarian was hatcheted after the signing of SNX, the absolute opposing definition of the word. It was then, that we realized LPC existed in name only. Edited January 15, 2017 by Lord Hitchcock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said: The original concept was to allow any ruler to play how they wanted without being sanctioned. Politics included big whale alliances with no hands in the cookie jar to sanction nations (and alliances) just because another whale alliance asked them to. M Inc never really felt the issue, but animalz wasn't as tamed back then and so they were continually sanctioned on every color. This led LN, animalz, CA, and M Inc to form and produce a senator on brown (who had a seat voided because a member from asi set up a bunch of proxys in some pineapple alliance). It worked. The problem was that thereafter our goals and ideals shifted in different directions. The very principle of libertarian was hatcheted after the signing of SNX, the absolute opposing definition of the word. It was then, that we realized LPC existed in name only. This was after I left and they looked to Junka for leadership. If I had more than a day to bring it back on track, it could have been more than in just name again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Optimus Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Sephiroth said: This was after I left and they looked to Junka for leadership. If I had more than a day to bring it back on track, it could have been more than in just name again. This part really makes my head hurt. Why would they look to Junka? Why would "libertarians" look to the emperor of mankind for leadership? After all of those insults thrown back and forth, and all those wars (both legitimate and illegitimate) that was the last thing anyone expected. I think that LPC was never really libertarian. Defending aNiMaLz in the name of that philosophy was inherently wrong. If they wanted to avoid sanctions they could have not made themselves everybody's problem. LPCN was a force of tyranny and oppression on brown from 2015- '16 Edited January 15, 2017 by Lucius Optimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alonso Quixano Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 20 minutes ago, Roal36 said: There are some Libertarian alliances that don't hog any lime light in OWF or appear in the war screens in-game. In my view both LPCN and Posse can't claim to be libertarian because they require members to join a certain colour group and/or limit the voting choices for senators election. Where has POSSE claimed to be libertarian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 Just now, Lucius Optimus said: This part really makes my head hurt. Why would they look to Junka? Why would "libertarians" look to the emperor of mankind for leadership? After all of those insults thrown back and forth, and all those wars (both legitimate and illegitimate) that was the last thing anyone expected. I think that LPC was never really libertarian. Defending aNiMaLz in the name of that philosophy was inherently wrong. If they wanted to avoid sanctions they could have not made themselves everyones problem. LPCN was a force of tyranny and oppression on brown from 2015- '16 aNiMaLz are more Anarchists, so they are mostly chaotic without any guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Optimus Posted January 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 minute ago, Sephiroth said: aNiMaLz are more Anarchists, so they are mostly chaotic without any guidance. Then why defend their liberty while they took everyone else's away? How does your libertarianism explain that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Lucius Optimus said: Then why defend their liberty while they took everyone else's away? How does your libertarianism explain that? aNiMaLz don't really have anyone who enjoys leading by telling people what they should do. Why do you think RUKUNU didn't become the Triumvir for aNiMaLz and Sir Kindle gladly gave his over to me? Every alliance has made mistakes, its by trying to improve ourselves we become better. Edited January 15, 2017 by Sephiroth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roal36 Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Alonso Quixano said: Where has POSSE claimed to be libertarian? Sorry my mistake I said that. Will correct it. Yes edited. Edited January 15, 2017 by Roal36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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