Supernova X and The Mages Guild ODoAP Agreement

[The Zigur]

5 minutes ago, Roal36 said:

It was an invalid treaty from the very start. Gen Gorgoth admitted to me in private the circumstances in which it was reached.

 

A treaty signed between alliance sovereigns is not invalid. If one of the sovereigns buckles under political pressure, that does not make the treaty invalid, it simply means there is a high degree of instability within that alliance internally.

 

Obviously when dealing with micro politics and untested leadership, instability is always a risk. It's unfortunate, but it happens, just like the first time we tried to help COBRA last year.

 

Since Gorgoth decided to resign, and the heir apparent wiped the treaty information from the alliance description, it's reasonable to infer that the new leadership is not interested in relations.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Roal36]

6 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

A treaty signed between alliance sovereigns is not invalid. If one of the sovereigns buckles under political pressure, that does not make the treaty invalid, it simply means there is a high degree of instability within that alliance internally.

 

Obviously when dealing with micro politics and untested leadership, instability is always a risk. It's unfortunate, but it happens, just like the first time we tried to help COBRA last year.

Ok its not invalid but its dead anyways (was it political pressure or just plain coercion).
All I remember was you sending all COBRA members a recruitment message asking us to join SNX while we were swallowing nukes from Goons. But back then I was a just a low lying member so was not privy to any real alliance diplomacy.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Roal36

[Haflinger]

42 minutes ago, XxHouseArrestXx said:

I wonder what the record is for the smallest amount of time a treaty has been in affect. 

This is pretty close, but there have been unannounced protectorates that lasted less than a day. This one might have the record among announced treaties though.

[The Zigur]

33 minutes ago, Roal36 said:

Ok its not invalid but its dead anyways (was it political pressure or just plain coercion).
All I remember was you sending all COBRA members a recruitment message asking us to join SNX while we were swallowing nukes from Goons. But back then I was a just a low lying member so was not privy to any real alliance diplomacy.

 

The political pressure I'm referring to is General Gorgoth resigning despite having done nothing wrong in signing this treaty.

 

I can't tell if the political pressure was a result solely of internal instability or threats by foreign actors, but it's something I'm hoping to find out.

[Devialance]

3 hours ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

A fool speaks when he lacks knowledge.

 

That explains why you are always speaking as we all know you lack knowledge.

[Devialance]

50 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

The political pressure I'm referring to is General Gorgoth resigning despite having done nothing wrong in signing this treaty.

 

I can't tell if the political pressure was a result solely of internal instability or threats by foreign actors, but it's something I'm hoping to find out.

Personally I think General Gorgoth resigned after finding out what a huge mistake it was to have TGE ever tired to you.

[Roal36]

1 hour ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

The political pressure I'm referring to is General Gorgoth resigning despite having done nothing wrong in signing this treaty.

 

I can't tell if the political pressure was a result solely of internal instability or threats by foreign actors, but it's something I'm hoping to find out.

He did something wrong otherwise the treaty would not have been cancelled.

He resigned owing to the unpopularity of his actions. He withdrew from WIN without any alliance wide consultation.

[The Zigur]

21 minutes ago, Roal36 said:

He did something wrong otherwise the treaty would not have been cancelled.

He resigned owing to the unpopularity of his actions. He withdrew from WIN without any alliance wide consultation.

 

I think it is interesting that, despite no longer being the official leader of Mages Guild, you have so much insight into the decisions being made there internally.

 

Reminds me alot of Sir Kindle and Rukunu's own pattern of behavior when it comes to AA hopping, in order to try to prevent retaliation against Animalz.

[General Kanabis]

56 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

I think it is interesting that, despite no longer being the official leader of Mages Guild, you have so much insight into the decisions being made there internally.

 

Reminds me alot of Sir Kindle and Rukunu's own pattern of behavior when it comes to AA hopping, in order to try to prevent retaliation against Animalz.

 

Yeah, their Alliance info page still reflects that sick obsession with being tied to my beloved COBRA.

FCA is dead.

For the record, Mages Guild is NOT "a part of Cobra".

 

http://www.cybernations.net/alliance_display.asp?ID=14642

[Roal36]

1 hour ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

I think it is interesting that, despite no longer being the official leader of Mages Guild, you have so much insight into the decisions being made there internally.

 

Reminds me alot of Sir Kindle and Rukunu's own pattern of behavior when it comes to AA hopping, in order to try to prevent retaliation against Animalz.

That is what you get after being with an alliance for so long. Titles and official positions become meaningless. You think just because I resigned from an alliance I no longer make any communication with any of them.

 

[Haflinger]

Well, to be frank, they probably would be better off if you didn't.

[Roal36]

4 minutes ago, Haflinger said:

Well, to be frank, they probably would be better off if you didn't.

Explain

[The Zigur]

The point of any civilized alliance is to raise its membership above the state of nature, and allow the growth and social development of the alliance. 

 

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Meaning_of_Freedom

 

When alliance leaders hop around to participate in meaningless wars, while influencing their membership away from decisions that promote growth and prosperity, the leadership has failed.

 

The hope was for General Gorgoth to steer the alliance away from war and turmoil, and towards growth and stability, but that has clearly failed.

[Roal36]

2 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

The point of any civilized alliance is to raise its membership above the state of nature, and allow the growth and social development of the alliance. 

 

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/The_Meaning_of_Freedom

 

When alliance leaders hop around to participate in meaningless wars, while influencing their membership away from decisions that promote growth and prosperity, the leadership has failed.

 

The hope was for General Gorgoth to steer the alliance away from war and turmoil, and towards growth and stability, but that has clearly failed.

Are you suggesting that I influenced my friends inside TMG to come out against WIN exit. You should do it with some proof please. I only spoke with Gen Gorgoth himself on this issue and made my opinion bare. It was for the good of his own alliance I did that because I know TMG more than Gen Gorgoth and you. I know that alliance membership wont like these kind of actions. I was right. Soon I had both Cherkendo and Archangel tell me about the larger opposition to this move. Gen Gorgoth had the honour of stepping down when he realised the mistakes made and the new lack of trust in him.

 

[The Zigur]

You do realize that by pressuring GG from leadership and trashing the ODoAP treaty, you have rendered Mages Guild without protection and treaties? 

 

Are you aware that by the precedent set by the Bones-Oculus war, TMG is a valid military target?

[Roal36]

7 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

You do realize that by pressuring GG from leadership and trashing the ODoAP treaty, you have rendered Mages Guild without protection and treaties? 

 

Are you aware that by the precedent set by the Bones-Oculus war, TMG is a valid military target?

I will take you up on a debate on that one ie why TMG is a valid target. I don't know any precedents and nor does my old allies in TMG know any.

[Sephiroth]

4 hours ago, Alexio15 said:

Well I would take TMG on as a protectorate for sure and offer protection :v

I think this wouldn't be a bad decision, wipe their treaty slate clean and remember not to sign with SNX in the future. Atlas could teach them that well and other things.

 

Although this treaty is of course optional, so TMG doesn't need to fight for SNX. It still shows bad judgement to sign with them at all.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Sephiroth

[The Zigur]

22 minutes ago, Roal36 said:

I will take you up on a debate on that one ie why TMG is a valid target. I don't know any precedents and nor does my old allies in TMG know any.

 

When Bones (Untouchable) moved to the MONGOLS AA from SPATR along with some fighters to sanction hartfw, Oculus struck back and hit SPATR anyway for being known as Bones actual alliance:

 

Both TMG and Animalz are valid military targets... Animalz in particular, because Sir Kindle just got done AA hopping a couple months ago against KoRT before running back to Animalz for help.

 

AA leaders hopping AAs doesn't mean that their members are excluded from reprisals, especially when it is publicly visible that those leaders still have influence.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Lucius Optimus]

If there were photographic evidence that Roal resigned? 

[The Zigur]

5 minutes ago, Lucius Optimus said:

If there were photographic evidence that Roal resigned? 

 

I can't speak for the alliances currently involved in military operations against Monsters University. But speaking for myself, the problem I have is that Roal36 is fighting my ODoAP ally Varangian Guard.

 

We signed a treaty with TMG that removed them from the entire situation, and offered lots of benefits to boot; but the treaty was rejected by the roalites.

 

The fact that Roal36, who is hitting my ally, also pressured GG to resign and drop the treaty, is something I am displeased about.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Roal36]

It won't matter because in 2007 Alliance A got hit by Alliance B because whtshisname who was fighting AA B enjoyed some respect in Alliance A

6 minutes ago, Lucius Optimus said:

If there were photographic evidence that Roal resigned? 

 

[Roal36]

2 minutes ago, Immortan Junka said:

 

I can't speak for the alliances currently involved in military operations against Monsters University. But speaking for myself, the problem I have is that Roal36 is fighting my ODoAP ally Varangian Guard.

 

We signed a treaty with TMG that removed them from the entire situation, and offered lots of benefits to boot; but the treaty was rejected by the roalites.

 

The fact that Roal36, who is hitting my ally, also pressured GG to resign and drop the treaty, is something I am displeased about.

Its not only you who care for your allies. I too care for my friends and will try to defend or avenge them.

[Roal36]

Junka. TMG members didn't like the way the treaty was negotiated. The only reason why the deal even needed was because of shameless threats made by ur ally which couldn't find a smaller alliance to make threats against.

 

Your own allies creates a threat and you yourself come up with a lame solution. Its not so difficult to imagine why the treaty lapsed so fast.

[The Zigur]

17 minutes ago, Roal36 said:

Junka. TMG members didn't like the way the treaty was negotiated. The only reason why the deal even needed was because of shameless threats made by ur ally which couldn't find a smaller alliance to make threats against.

 

Your own allies creates a threat and you yourself come up with a lame solution. Its not so difficult to imagine why the treaty lapsed so fast.

 

Monsters University made no attempt at explaining its actions against Varangian Guard and the other alliances.

 

What happened:

 

http://www.cybernations.net/war_information.asp?ID=812064

 

*A random VG noob raid against a TMG nation, noob gets booted from the AA

*Monsters University goes straight to a blitz of Varangian Guard and SLAP

 

How is this justified? Sir Kindle is just a punk so that's expected, but why are you even involved in this?

Edited September 28, 2016 by Immortan Junka

[Neo Uruk]

dear tmg pm me if u want some veteran leadership and to be the cool + good version of monsters inc