An Open Letter to Frawley

[Unknown Smurf]

1. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> you really where thinking of rolling Invicta?
2. <Frawley[NPO]> This game is dying
3. <Frawley[NPO]> it needs something to happen
4. <Frawley[NPO]> Declaring Red NPO only again might help
5. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> lol
6. <Frawley[NPO]> Last month was the lowest tech production month in history
7. <Frawley[NPO]> globally
8. <Frawley[NPO]> first time tech trade has been under 1m a month
9. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> the thread i started in R&R, people where overall ready to go to war, as long as it wasn't for "just because we are bored"
10. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> i get the vibe that a war without a valid reason probably won't pass a vote
11. <Frawley[NPO]> What consitutes a valid reason
12. <Frawley[NPO]> No-one is active enough to give a reason these days
13. <Frawley[NPO]> I mean
14. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> i didn't ask for a clear definition, but "just because" or "the game is dying" won't fly
15. <Frawley[NPO]> lets say we hit them
16. <Frawley[NPO]> and Legion his us
17. <Frawley[NPO]> would activation of a MDoAP be a reason
18. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> hit who? Invicta?
19. <Frawley[NPO]> We hit Invicta
20. <Frawley[NPO]> and Legion hit NPO
21. <Frawley[NPO]> Would Legion activating our MDoAP count as a reason
22. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> well
23. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> that would be awkward
24. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> Invicta has a MDoAP with NADC
25. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> and we just upgraded to a MDoAP with NADC
26. <Frawley[NPO]> well obviously we would absorb NADC and not counter them
27. <Frawley[NPO]>
28. <Frawley[NPO]> Just saying
29. <Frawley[NPO]> everyone is tied to abosolutely everyone
30. <Frawley[NPO]> lets make some drama
31. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> and what am i supposed to do when NADC asks for help then?
32. <Frawley[NPO]> NADC would be asking for you to activate an Optional Agression Clause against a Mandatory Defensive Ally
33. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> you would just let NADC attack you? and no other allies of your would counter them?
34. <Frawley[NPO]> sure
35. <Frawley[NPO]> we have 3.1m more tech than them
36. <Frawley[NPO]> I think we could deal with it
37. <Frawley[NPO]> plus would get your guys some action
38. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> why don't you guys just go and attack Doom Kingdom if you want action that bad?

 

 

So NPO has been planning this since before DK disbanded. 2 monthes ago. 

 

 

1. <Frawley[NPO]> Like I can just leave NPO sit here and grow 2m tech a year
2. <Frawley[NPO]> and eventually kill the game
3. <Frawley[NPO]> Like I am aware of that
4. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> if you guys find yourselves overwhelmed and need help in the mid tiers, because that's what a majority of our numbers is, we are here for you. we have no axe to grind against any alliance in CN, and aren't going to go looking for a fight
5. <Frawley[NPO]> I don't mean an axe to grind
6. <Frawley[NPO]> I mean what do you want CN to be
7. <Frawley[NPO]> forget for a moment that we represent alliances
8. <Frawley[NPO]> as a game player
9. <Frawley[NPO]> in a game that has never been smaller
10. <Frawley[NPO]> and is dropping players like nothing on eartch
11. <Frawley[NPO]> what do we do
12. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> as a player, id like to see CN without a mega bloc, that can go around smashing on alliances at will. Everyone know, that no one can really &#036;%&amp;@ with Oculus. You guys put together one helluva a bloc, and you can't be faulted for that, but it does damper things. I've had alot of people in R&R say that Oculus is helping to kill the game faster, because with a mega bloc like this, no one can do anything
13. <Frawley[NPO]> We made Oculus because no-one did anything else
14. <Frawley[NPO]> Oculus is 25% of the players
15. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> now no one can do anything else
16. <Frawley[NPO]> of course they can

 

Frawley. Oculus is like 90% of the actual players. You can't take the ingame stats. Lets look at active players who are actually in a position of power. Even if you just count active players, Oculus is like 70% and the other 30% are made up of people like myself, MInc, Methrage, etc who have been basically perpetually curbstomped for years. 

 

1. <Frawley[NPO]> tbh, half of Oc is disbanding post war anyway

 

Well that's just a pure lie. 

 

1. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> you know as well as i do, it would take more then half the alliances in this game to probably bring Oculus down as is
2. <Frawley[NPO]> Not really, Oc is disproportionally upper tier
3. <Frawley[NPO]> Oc would die in the mids
4. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> if you guys went all in, and got countered, then you'd be able to call in R&R, NATO, and others to cover that
5. <Frawley[NPO]> okay
6. <Frawley[NPO]> lets say Oc went in on DK
7. <Frawley[NPO]> I dunno
8. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> O_o
9. <Frawley[NPO]> aside from Oc disbanding
10. <Frawley[NPO]> what would you like to see happen

 

Here is what I would like to see: An attack on someone who can actually do something about it.

 

1. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> lol im not saying i'd like to see Oculus disband, im just saying that it does put a damper on things. Oculus is here, and 2 of my allies are in it, and i dont want negative things to happen for my allies.
2. <Frawley[NPO]> aye I get that
3. <Frawley[NPO]> and tbh I don't want bad stuff to happen to my allies
4. <Frawley[NPO]> but at this point I want to make a war happen that equalises the game
5. <Frawley[NPO]> like I said
6. <Frawley[NPO]> if NPO alone continues to just do what it is doing now
7. <Frawley[NPO]> Oculus aside
8. <Frawley[NPO]> in a year we will have more tech than the rest of the top 20
9. <Frawley[NPO]> we already have half of Oculus tech
10. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> what exactly would you like to see happen
11. <Frawley[NPO]> tbh, my view is that all the folks who are active are basically friends now
12. <Frawley[NPO]> so either we fight an Eq type war
13. <Frawley[NPO]> through to conslusion
14. <DemonSpawn[RnR]> i gotta head to bed, i got work in the morning. i'll catch up with you tomorrow
15. <Frawley[NPO]> alright
16. <Frawley[NPO]> night mate

 

Frawley you are absolutely blind if you don't see how Oculus ties up the game and is the single thing 

 

Rubbing out the few alliances that aren't in or allied to Oculus is supposed to "equalize" the game? Seriously what are you thinking. Please do share. 

[Lord Hitchcock]

To be fair, the existence of Oculus has not swayed M Inc in any way.

 

#Microlivesmatter

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lord Hitchcock

[hartfw]

Cowboys doesn't really have a stake in this conflict, but the idea that Oculus is in some way tying up the game is pretty laughable.  There are non-Oculus aa's that haven't started a war or acted when given what they call a CB for years before Oculus existed.  They act like that now not because of Oculus.  Oculus (along with Minc) seems one of the few people willing to do something when confronted, and have been one of the few things doing something.

 

As an aside, it is pretty interesting to see R&R suggesting NPO to hit dk.

 

 

[brucemania]

i am just curious as to how one would get a hold of a convo between two people that seems in private without any one else in the private conversation .. specially without time stamps of when this did happen

[Unknown Smurf]

15 minutes ago, hartfw said:

Cowboys doesn't really have a stake in this conflict, but the idea that Oculus is in some way tying up the game is pretty laughable.  There are non-Oculus aa's that haven't started a war or acted when given what they call a CB for years before Oculus existed.  They act like that now not because of Oculus.  Oculus (along with Minc) seems one of the few people willing to do something when confronted, and have been one of the few things doing something.

 

As an aside, it is pretty interesting to see R&R suggesting NPO to hit dk.

 

 

 

My point exactly -- Everyone outside of Oculus is irrelevant. 

 

Analysis of Frawleys only 25% of the world is Oculus. Here is the top 80 alliances: 

 

In Oculus: NPO, Umbrella, IRON, VE, DT, NG, GLOF, Sengoku

Fighting for Oculus: NpO, NSO, NoR, FTW, AW, WWF, 

In bed with Oculus (major allies in Oculus/Fighting for Oculus): NATO, ODN, RnR, Sparta, NADC, Fark, GATO, TSK, TTK, Atlas, KoRT, TOP, SUN, TLR, TBC, OG, CCC, Last Call, Argent, GO, CRAP, RIA, TSC, Avalanche, WAPA, Gre, AGW Overlords, TSO, AO, PSSE, LSF, DoD, Armpit Platoon, 

Allied to those fighting for Oculus: SNX, 

 

Currently fighting Oculus: MI6, Invicta, NEW, TPF, Mongols

Rolled by Oculus within the last 6 monthes: PPO, Kashmir, 

 

Neutrals: GPA, Pax Corvus, WTF, RotR, TDO, OBR, GC, 

Disbanded Alliances: STA, UPN, SL, LoSS, Int, USN, 

The remainder: The Legion, DBDC, SLAP, KoN, FAN, MHA, VS, TIO, GOD, ROMA, TOLD, TPE

 

 

EDIT: I've gone through and analyzed every alliance here from an OOC perspective. If you feel any is wrong, please do say so and I'll give you my logic. 

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Unknown Smurf

[Mogar]

GOD is still in the top 80?

[Neo Uruk]

i love alex the great log dumps and would trust that every one of them is 100% real with my LIFE

 

edit: not gonna call this a fake because lmbo frawley and tech

Edited June 11, 2016 by Neo Uruk

[Unknown Smurf]

Yes GOD is #60 overall with 3 aid slots used in the last 6 months with an aid slot efficency of 0.143%. This is the type of alliance that Oculus/Frawley argues is going to create some sort of opposition to them and is the reason that Oculus isn't stagnating the game. 

 

Log was independently verified. 

[hartfw]

4 minutes ago, Unknown Smurf said:

 

My point exactly -- Everyone outside of Oculus is irrelevant. 

 

 

Cowboys have several friends outside of Oculus.  I would hate to think they are irrelevant.  Then again, I'm sure some people will find us just that as well.

 

But calling everyone else irrelevant doesn't make the idea that Oculus is tying up the world true.

[Unknown Smurf]

Just now, hartfw said:

 

Cowboys have several friends outside of Oculus.  I would hate to think they are irrelevant.  Then again, I'm sure some people will find us just that as well.

 

But calling everyone else irrelevant doesn't make the idea that Oculus is tying up the world true.

 

Everyone outside the Oculus sphere is irrelevant. Even if Sparta is considered to be anti-Oculus, they are still MDoAP'd to Umb for example. 

[Lord Hitchcock]

 

The problem is this that you give Frawley (and NPO in general) way to much respect.

 

He isn't the reason alliances can not defend their allies, or even start wars themselves.

 

And even IF Frawley just decided to 'make it fair for everyone'- then we'd all be pissed that we got the pitty win.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lord Hitchcock

[Mogar]

I'd be perfectly content with Oculus splitting, Umbrella/VE on one side, NPO and friends on another, with IRON and AZTEC as toss ups that by itself would cause a significant shift in politics. (though, I suspect this current war is a way for NPO and friends to weaken Umb's FA position while remaining allied to them, just as the efforts to get DK to walk into a rolling were a way to weaken DBDC's FA position without having to cancel on them.)

[hartfw]

4 minutes ago, Unknown Smurf said:

 

Everyone outside the Oculus sphere is irrelevant. Even if Sparta is considered to be anti-Oculus, they are still MDoAP'd to Umb for example. 

 

Irrelevant in what way?  There have been wars without oculus on either side.  And there have been people too scared to risk pixels despite legitimate grievances without Oculus on either side.

 

I feel like you are trying to make a different point than the one(s) you are saying, which is an issue for those of us addressing what you are saying. 

 

Edit:  

4 minutes ago, Lord Hitchcock said:

 

The problem is this that you give Frawley (and NPO in general) way to much respect.

 

He isn't the reason alliances can not defend their allies, or even start wars themselves.

 

And even IF Frawley just decided to 'make it fair for everyone'- then we'd all be pissed that we got the 'pitty win'.

 

 

A lot of this.

Edited June 11, 2016 by hartfw

[Unknown Smurf]

My argument is not that it is Frawleys fault that other alliances suck, but that his argument that said alliances equivocate to any sort of potential threat/balance to Oculus. Even if they were heralded together by someone competent. 

 

Oculus ties up the game for active players.

[hartfw]

2 minutes ago, Unknown Smurf said:

Oculus ties up the game for active players.

 

And people not in Oculus are saying and pretty clearly explaining why this concept is a pathetic excuse.

 

You can be incredibly active and not tied down while not being in Oculus.  I'm pretty sure you have been involved in a handful of wars during the time of Oculus and not restrained from activity, both with oculus and without them. 

 

In contrast, those who did nothing for 2 years before Oculus existed, doing nothing while Oculus exists and then blaming it on Oculus is a lot of hooey.  Hooey that they aren't even spewing.  So the idea of you creating a thread to white knight for people who are tied down from acting is a paper thin farce.

 

 

[Unknown Smurf]

1 minute ago, hartfw said:

 

And people not in Oculus are saying and pretty clearly explaining why this concept is a pathetic excuse.

 

 

I have not heard this argument; please do enlighten me. 

[hartfw]

Just now, Unknown Smurf said:

 

I have not heard this argument and I intend to not listen for as long as it takes

 

Well, at least you are being honest now.

[Unknown Smurf]

Just now, hartfw said:

 

Well, at least you are being honest now.

 

Honestly OOC, I'm interested in the argument. How does Oculus existing not tie up the game? How can an active/competent person/alliance actually get a group together to oppose Oculus when every potential alliance is allied to Oculus and will go running to Oculus to get Invicta/MI6/Polar/NSO/whoever rolled for plotting as soon as it happens?

 

The problem isn't just the Oculus alliances, but that each and every one of them has a sphere of alliances that will report everything to them.

 

Look at FTW. NEW was severely outnumbered and attacked for accepting a guy who wasn't at war and then their MDoAP ally (FTW) went around and attacked NEWs MDoAP ally. Adding to the curbstomp. 

[hartfw]

Just now, Unknown Smurf said:

 

Honestly OOC, I'm interested in the argument. How does Oculus existing not tie up the game? How can an active/competent person/alliance actually get a group together to oppose Oculus when every potential alliance is allied to Oculus and will go running to Oculus to get Invicta/MI6/Polar/NSO/whoever rolled for plotting as soon as it happens?

 

The problem isn't just the Oculus alliances, but that each and every one of them has a sphere of alliances that will report everything to them.

 

Look at FTW. NEW was severely outnumbered and attacked for accepting a guy who wasn't at war and then their MDoAP ally (FTW) went around and attacked NEWs MDoAP ally. Adding to the curbstomp. 

 

Oh, now you came out and said what you actually meant.  It would have been much easier if you did so before, instead of framing it all the false narratives.

 

People are tied up not because they don't have a ton of freedom to be active and do what they want but because they are not currently rolling Oculus.

People are irrelevant to you because they are not rolling Oculus.

 

Well guess what.  There is a whole big world besides Oculus and if you are defining anyone not rolling Oculus as irrelevant you are missing out.

[shahenshah]

A real letter would have started with "Dear Frawley" and ended with "Sincerely Yours, Unknown Smurf".

Edited June 11, 2016 by shahenshah

[Auctor]

Oculus doesn't tie up the game primarily because everyone would be doing nothing without it. Including Oculus members.

[hartfw]

Just now, Auctor said:

Oculus doesn't tie up the game primarily because everyone would be doing nothing without it. Including Oculus members.

 

You should get back to disbanding AB.

[White Chocolate]

You know, it is a VERY good thing for certain alliances on Planet Bob, that I actually DO believe that once an alliance disbands,  not only treaties of that alliance (the one disbanding) are null and void but also any CB's such alliance could otherwise have used and hard feelings in general no longer apply.  At this stage in the history of Planet Bob,  doing otherwise would have everyone hating everyone else, plotting against everyone else and so on. 

 

However when I get back into a position where I have any sort of say in such matters,  don't be surprised that I cut out "intelligence" clauses entirely from the treaties I write.  Clearly this is a conversation that happened when Doom Kingdom was still an alliance.

 

Overall, I think it would be much better to not have "intelligence clauses" in the first place than have a culture where they are used and constantly either violated or arguably so.  I'm not going to e-lawyer the point either.  However, had I known about this at the time,  just maybe something would of happened and RnR would of gotten the war they apparently wanted.

[Lord Hitchcock]

Hartw and Smurf, I like both you guys.

 

And could you please keep the argument of why:

"Tetris saved planet bob"

and how

"Oculus prevents Junka's full potential" 

 

away from the wff / swc / M inc peace talks channel?

 

there is enough tension in that room already.

 

Edited June 11, 2016 by Lord Hitchcock

[Auctor]

18 minutes ago, White Chocolate said:

You know, it is a VERY good thing for certain alliances on Planet Bob, that I actually DO believe that once an alliance disbands,  not only treaties of that alliance (the one disbanding) are null and void but also any CB's such alliance could otherwise have used and hard feelings in general no longer apply.  At this stage in the history of Planet Bob,  doing otherwise would have everyone hating everyone else, plotting against everyone else and so on. 

 

However when I get back into a position where I have any sort of say in such matters,  don't be surprised that I cut out "intelligence" clauses entirely from the treaties I write.  Clearly this is a conversation that happened when Doom Kingdom was still an alliance.

 

Overall, I think it would be much better to not have "intelligence clauses" in the first place than have a culture where they are used and constantly either violated or arguably so.  I'm not going to e-lawyer the point either.  However, had I known about this at the time,  just maybe something would of happened and RnR would of gotten the war they apparently wanted.

 

Everyone hates everyone as of four years ago already.

 

I will say, signing treaties with people you are not willing to trust is kind of a bass ackwards way of handing the problem of having had treaties with people you apparently did not trust. Losing intelligence clauses doesn't really change the dynamic there at all.