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The 'spy' here is actually the dissident that sent Hitchcock the screenshots in the first place.

 

You're trying to shoot the messenger. If anything you should be thanking him for letting you know you have a leak.

 

So if someone from CA sends me screenshots from your private forums, I can post them on the OWF and you won't take any offence or declare war on my alliance? From what I get from the situation, Monsters Inc are also protecting the spy, not letting said spy get punished.

 

Your logic is silly.

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As it were, Lord Hitchcock was fairly aware that we were not going to enter the conflict, both because SNX cancelled their protectorate with TSO, and our other tie through BC (TSC) did not ask us for any aid in the conflict. Discussions with our membership about the war were negative in some areas, as the screenshots suggest. If Hitchcock lived in a world where he didn't feel the need to post private information and instead came to our government with the screenshots - then his alliance would not be at war with us. His alliance is democratic, and I hope they are smart enough to elect a new representative to their alliance who doesn't force alliance's to go to war with him essentially through acts of war and incompetence.

 

o/ Atlas

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So if someone from CA sends me screenshots from your private forums, I can post them on the OWF and you won't take any offence or declare war on my alliance?

 

I would not consider simply accepting screenshots from someone, in and of itself, a reason for war or even to be angry with you.

 

And dont claim you would somehow refuse them sight unseen. Everyone accepts screenshots.

 

To whoever it was that called me a hypocrite, and anyone else thinking of going down that path, I'll just point out that I have fought for that issue twice now. Karma and the PB-NpO war. 

 

 
Your logic is silly.
 

 

 

How so? 

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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I would not consider simply accepting screenshots from someone, in and of itself, a reason for war or even to be angry with you.

 

And dont claim you would somehow refuse them sight unseen. Everyone accepts screenshots.

 

To whoever it was that called me a hypocrite, and anyone else thinking of going down that path, I'll just point out that I have fought for that issue twice now. Karma and the PB-NpO war. 

 

 

Accepting them isn't the CB. Posting them on the OWF is.

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I would not consider simply accepting screenshots from someone, in and of itself, a reason for war or even to be angry with you.

 

And dont claim you would somehow refuse them sight unseen. Everyone accepts screenshots.

 

To whoever it was that called me a hypocrite, and anyone else thinking of going down that path, I'll just point out that I have fought for that issue twice now. Karma and the PB-NpO war.

 

You ignored the 2nd point to my question, "I can post them on the OWF and you won't take any offence or declare war on my alliance?"

 

As they were posted on the forums for all to see and the spy harboured in the MInc AA.

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You ignored the 2nd point to my question, "I can post them on the OWF and you won't take any offence or declare war on my alliance?"

 

 

Posting them on the OWF was not the best move, but  I'm still very skeptical that it's such a big step from receiving a link to sharing a link. I would have to say at minimum I would be profoundly uncomfortable with using it as a CB myself.

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It's still a cb and a very valid cb. Regardless of who did it, being the leader of the alliance sharing them on the owf I makes it even worse. There was three ways he could have gone about I and he chose the worst route possible.

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1. Atlas discusses hitting MInc.
2. Members seem to indicate they're not ready/interested in providing more than financial support.
3. Ex-Atlas members gives MInc. screenshots.
4. MInc. foolishly makes said screenshots public, opening them up to a charge of, at the very least, 'receiving stolen information' and essentially forcing Atlas' hand.
5. Atlas declares war.
6. The usual group of apologists show up to make a remarkably poor case for this being opportunistic.
 
As CBs go, it's rock solid; unlike, for example, declaring war as a result of some name-calling.


Nice zinger man. Did your mom not hug Bros not high five you enough while you were growing up?

The validity of the CB aside, I'm trying to understand Atlas' perspective here. While spying and receiving/posting have both been used as valid CBs in the past, they are two different scenarios and I'd like a clarification on the matter.
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Nice zinger man. Did your mom not hug Bros not high five you enough while you were growing up?

The validity of the CB aside, I'm trying to understand Atlas' perspective here. While spying and receiving/posting have both been used as valid CBs in the past, they are two different scenarios and I'd like a clarification on the matter.


Well its clear, the person that did the spying is in Monsters Inc and a full member. The leader (Hitchcock) shared these over the owf. He had at least 3 options with them, A) He keeps them to himself and prepares for the outcome of Atlas coming in, or it just being a discussion as it was. B) He informs me in private or a member of my gov that these screens it's came into his possession and wants clarification, of what we are doing and what we are going to do with the spy. Or C) Do exactly what he did and post them on the owf for all to see and give anyone the clearest cb in a long time. So all in all its because he is housing the spy and decided to show he has them and share them on the owf.
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Well its clear, the person that did the spying is in Monsters Inc and a full member. The leader (Hitchcock) shared these over the owf. He had at least 3 options with them, A) He keeps them to himself and prepares for the outcome of Atlas coming in, or it just being a discussion as it was. B) He informs me in private or a member of my gov that these screens it's came into his possession and wants clarification, of what we are doing and what we are going to do with the spy. Or C) Do exactly what he did and post them on the owf for all to see and give anyone the clearest cb in a long time. So all in all its because he is housing the spy and decided to show he has them and share them on the owf.


I understand your perspective but it still doesn't address my question: do you believe MInc was maliciously spying on you or just receiving information from a disgruntled member?

Do you believe hardin was passing information to MInc prior to leaving atlas or do you believe he chose to go to MInc because he was mad at you and decided joining MInc would piss you off the most since they were the ones you were discussing warring with?

 
A concise recitation of facts is now a zinger?


Your sixth point referring to my post on opportunism clearly was. If you're gonna play dumb, do it better.
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All irrelivant and an attempt to obscure the issue.  Their intentions or feelings arent what matters here.

 

We have a series of facts.

 

Fact: Someone took screen shots of Atlas private forums and, acting as a spy passed them on to MI.

 

Fact: MI accepted the screen shots.

 

Fact: MI acceptd the person who stole them into their alliance knowing they stole them.

 

Fact: MI posted said screen shots of an alliances private forum on the OWF.

 

 

Are you complaining MI is so incompetent they didn't realize the above would get a response or be a CB?  I think there are very few alliances who wouldnt go to war with them in these circumstances.  And what hardin was or was not thinking has nothing to do with the poor hcoices MI made.

 

Instead of doubling down with the arogance and spin, MI... and anyone who likes them.... would do a lot better to man up and admit they screwed up. 

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That's brilliant.  Almost a principle of double effect argument, except without the good intentions part.  So they intended to hurt Atlas, but they didn't intend to hurt Atlas enough to get their teeth knocked in?

 

Gee golly willikers, what an injustice.

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With all due respect, OsRavan, I disagree.

 

The difference between the two scenarios Smurf described is pretty severe.

 

The second seems by far the most likely. And the case for attacking MInc over it, if that is really what happened, is... weak at best.

 

Nonetheless if I know the little monsters they will take this in stride and send Atlas running back to Asia anyway.

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I disagree.

 

That's all that needed to be said Sigrun, nobody expected you to look at this and accept that MInc was actually at fault as it was clear that you'd unconditionally throw your pseudo-factology of opinions around like candy. The CB is solid no matter how you cut it because MInc is protecting someone who released private Atlas information. Atlas has every right to them the same as everyone would. The type of situation here is the same as a tech scammer, war deserter, or rogue. You don't protect these kinds of people unless you're fully prepared to back it up militarily. You and Smurf have a whopping two options: activate defense clauses or don't. Nobody here is going to look at your attempts to pass off another MInc blunder as something innocent. They do these things on purpose and they don't hide it, why do you try to?

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