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Supernova X Imperial Decree


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Edited previous post.

I think you may believe I have been agreeable because we've historically had few (if any) spats. Along the same vein I believe that many people have issues with MInc for residual historical issues rather than current blunders.

 

I don't think it's a matter of previous spats or opinions, I used to respect Sigrun and have greatly disagreed with you before (though I never voiced it). You are however present with a quality of response that I can actually engage in a cordial and unsarcastic manner, because your views aren't extreme and are generally well spoke. Also, you are actually someone with a good angle on things and not trying to tell me that Monsters Inc was in TSC and trying to make that a valid defense for why defending TSO is unjust. You take a typical stance defending an ally who didn't get an easy peace because it was rejected. I can understand how that's frustrating, and it's not a superficial reason.

 

As for your edited post, that makes it worse as they openly cited the war and why it was necessary for them to completely disengage from their own protectorate who was under attack. Disagree with them, warn them of the consequences of not taking peace and tell them you'd be unable to back them. But don't go to their face and say "you didn't accept the peace SNX wanted" and cut them loose immediately. That's just poor form. Keep in mind I'm not saying TSO didn't deserve it here in the case of SNX, but come one man, it's not hard to agree to cut a treaty and wait for a crisis to be over.

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To many alliances just let treaties dictate their behavior rather than evaluate the situation to decide right from wrong. SNX I think made the right decision in this case. Why should they let a badly placed treaty let them get pulled into helping with a dog pile on the side of those responsible for them getting dog piled in the last big war centered on them? If they were loyal allies to SNX, TSO would secure peace with Monster Inc, with their allies included in that, freeing up MI to focus on those jumping in without a treaty. If TSO has a secret treaty with DS, they're already in league with those who threw SNX under the bus when they got dog piled.

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I don't think it's a matter of previous spats or opinions, I used to respect Sigrun and have greatly disagreed with you before (though I never voiced it). You are however present with a quality of response that I can actually engage in a cordial and unsarcastic manner, because your views aren't extreme and are generally well spoke. Also, you are actually someone with a good angle on things and not trying to tell me that Monsters Inc was in TSC and trying to make that a valid defense for why defending TSO is unjust. You take a typical stance defending an ally who didn't get an easy peace because it was rejected. I can understand how that's frustrating, and it's not a superficial reason.
 
As for your edited post, that makes it worse as they openly cited the war and why it was necessary for them to completely disengage from their own protectorate who was under attack. Disagree with them, warn them of the consequences of not taking peace and tell them you'd be unable to back them. But don't go to their face and say "you didn't accept the peace SNX wanted" and cut them loose immediately. That's just poor form. Keep in mind I'm not saying TSO didn't deserve it here in the case of SNX, but come one man, it's not hard to agree to cut a treaty and wait for a crisis to be over.


Oh don't get me wrong, if we look at this incident soley for itself and nothing more SNX looks wrong by all perspectives; my point, however, is that due to the necessitated and implicity urgent revamping of their entire alliance image I can understand and support their decision to cancel here, and could eventually come to forgive them (or understand those that do ally them at the very least) due to the fact that they avoided an easy war over avoiding a real fight via PM or shirked responsibilities.
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Oh don't get me wrong, if we look at this incident soley for itself and nothing more SNX looks wrong by all perspectives; my point, however, is that due to the necessitated and implicity urgent revamping of their entire alliance image I can understand and support their decision to cancel here, and could eventually come to forgive them (or understand those that do ally them at the very least) due to the fact that they avoided an easy war over avoiding a real fight via PM or shirked responsibilities.

 

I guess we will see in time if this has ramifications for SNX that go long-term.

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Go ahead and ask Sengoku about my opinions on doing the right thing, but I appreciate your attempts to play this game. And for the record, I don't even particularly care for TSO, you can ask NADC what I had to say on them. This isn't a matter of propaganda, this is a matter of people like you trying to say Monsters Inc did nothing wrong, while they've done nothing but validate everything they did as wrong proudly.

 

I never said they did nothing wrong, that's just completely inaccurate. The fact that CA is NOT currently at war is a dead giveaway that I am not taking that position, and also you know I would hope that the fact that I have not taken that position might prevent it from being attributed to me as well, but perhaps that is too much to ask.

 

Here's the thing, MInc are little monsters. They are always doing something 'wrong' but you know what? Better that than to simply sit and decompose quietly like most of the planet. If you are too afraid of getting it wrong you never try, and if you never try then why are you here taking up space and breathing our air?

 

They try stuff, sometimes they make a little mess. Messes can be cleaned up.

 

This one would have already been cleaned up if it were not for the other side. And that's a fact.

 

Another fact is that this was not just MIncs screwup either - however you want to parse it TSO was part of it all the way. I'd give them some points on moral high ground at the beginning solely on the strength of not making the initial declarations, but they've since done far worse than MInc had and not just squandered it but actively gone to the dark side. Bandwagon supporters encouraging them to dig in and double down instead of talking this out are not helping to resolve the situation, and have absolutely no moral high ground to squander. They are only making a minor kerfluffle larger and more destructive.

 

Now if that's what you want to do, fine, have at, but spare me any delusions of morality when you do, please.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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This one would have already been cleaned up if it were not for the other side. And that's a fact.

 

Another fact is that this was not just MIncs screwup either - however you want to parse it TSO was part of it all the way. I'd give them some points on moral high ground at the beginning, but they've done far worse than MInc has at this point and not just squandered it but actively gone to the dark side. Bandwagon supporters encouraging them to dig in and double down instead of talking this out are not helping to resolve the situation, and have absolutely no moral high ground to squander. They are only making a minor kerfluffle larger and more destructive.

 

Now if that's what you want to do, fine, have at, but spare me any delusions of morality when you do, please.

 

You seem like a reasonable guy.  Perhaps a listing of the screw-ups on each side, in as fair and neutral a tone as possible, would help the uninformed among us wrap our heads around this.  Chronologically would be nice.

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1400903448kashmir_banner.jpg

 

Since we're already talking protection, in light of this announcement SNX is under the protection of Kashmir (Paradise On Earth) until further notice.

 

/s/ Kashmir

 

 

Arguably, more of a rabbit-out-of-a-hat than the OP.  Yet it slid by without a single acknowledgement.  Don't forget to provide that further notice, that could be a minefield. 

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I never said they did nothing wrong, that's just completely inaccurate. The fact that CA is NOT currently at war is a dead giveaway that I am not taking that position, and also you know I would hope that the fact that I have not taken that position might prevent it from being attributed to me as well, but perhaps that is too much to ask.
 
Here's the thing, MInc are little monsters. They are always doing something 'wrong' but you know what? Better that than to simply sit and decompose quietly like most of the planet. If you are too afraid of getting it wrong you never try, and if you never try then why are you here taking up space and breathing our air?
 
They try stuff, sometimes they make a little mess. Messes can be cleaned up.
 
This one would have already been cleaned up if it were not for the other side. And that's a fact.
 
Another fact is that this was not just MIncs screwup either - however you want to parse it TSO was part of it all the way. I'd give them some points on moral high ground at the beginning solely on the strength of not making the initial declarations, but they've since done far worse than MInc had and not just squandered it but actively gone to the dark side. Bandwagon supporters encouraging them to dig in and double down instead of talking this out are not helping to resolve the situation, and have absolutely no moral high ground to squander. They are only making a minor kerfluffle larger and more destructive.
 
Now if that's what you want to do, fine, have at, but spare me any delusions of morality when you do, please.


It's not "screwing up" to not accept an offer of peace from the alliance that attacked you. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense for you to say that that's just completely reprehensible, you have a vested interest in seeing this be shut down. So did SNX, so does Kaskus, and so does MInc. However, as I said in another thread, you don't get to redefine the rules of engagement because you do not like that they did something fully within their jurisdiction to do.

Now, would I have walked away from the negotiation table? No, but it wouldn't make it any more or less unacceptable given the way Monsters Inc handled themselves. If there was no desire for this to escalate, it shouldn't have started.

Also, "always doing something wrong" is what gets you rolled, don't pretend that's not the case. It's only a matter of time before it bites you harder than you intended. There's a difference between taking no risks and taking calculated risks. This was either not calculated by Monsters Inc, or they're bad at math. Whatever the case, I don't think TSO cares, and why should they? If their allies are willing to actually defend them (when they should, this is a textbook case of "activated defense clause"), why let Monsters Inc get away with a victory? If TSO loses the military engagement, they'll learn something themselves about calculated risks. But to call it their fault, as an ally or an adversary, because they decided to defend themselves and not let the enemy off easily is just obtuse.
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It's not "screwing up" to not accept an offer of peace from the alliance that attacked you. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense for you to say that that's just completely reprehensible, you have a vested interest in seeing this be shut down.

 

This is 100% nonsense made up from whole cloth and does not match or even closely resemble anything I have said. There isnt even a word in here I can find to respond to. If you want to dispute me please try to dispute something I have actually said, instead of just tearing apart what you somehow imagine I would say.

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It's not "screwing up" to not accept an offer of peace from the alliance that attacked you. Don't get me wrong, it makes sense for you to say that that's just completely reprehensible, you have a vested interest in seeing this be shut down. So did SNX, so does Kaskus, and so does MInc. However, as I said in another thread, you don't get to redefine the rules of engagement because you do not like that they did something fully within their jurisdiction to do.

Now, would I have walked away from the negotiation table? No, but it wouldn't make it any more or less unacceptable given the way Monsters Inc handled themselves. If there was no desire for this to escalate, it shouldn't have started.

Also, "always doing something wrong" is what gets you rolled, don't pretend that's not the case. It's only a matter of time before it bites you harder than you intended. There's a difference between taking no risks and taking calculated risks. This was either not calculated by Monsters Inc, or they're bad at math. Whatever the case, I don't think TSO cares, and why should they? If their allies are willing to actually defend them (when they should, this is a textbook case of "activated defense clause"), why let Monsters Inc get away with a victory? If TSO loses the military engagement, they'll learn something themselves about calculated risks. But to call it their fault, as an ally or an adversary, because they decided to defend themselves and not let the enemy off easily is just obtuse.

 

This is pretty freaking spot on. Anyone who thinks otherwise, really is, was and will always be clueless about the weight of political capital on Planet Bob.

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We all have an interest in seeing this come to a close. At this point we have six alliances ganging up on one. The nations in the coalition outnumber Monsters Inc. roughly 5:1. Yet MI is still holding its own which speaks much to our tenacity and determination. This war should not have started in the first place and there was no reason why the disagreement could not have been solved diplomatically. However, when all is said and done, both MI and TSO will have walked away from the table having learned a lesson or two. At this point, a slugfest is occurring and at the end of it neither side is going to gain anything substantial. Both sides are losing more than what they could be gaining if this was resolved. The departure of SNX from the table means there is one less potential mediator to this conflict. 

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This is 100% nonsense made up from whole cloth and does not match or even closely resemble anything I have said. There isnt even a word in here I can find to respond to. If you want to dispute me please try to dispute something I have actually said, instead of just tearing apart what you somehow imagine I would say.


Yet you still found it in yourself to respond, I'm flattered.

You called SNX's move "honorable" and called it "the right thing" for abandoning their protectorate in the middle of a war. How is that not a validation of the claim that TSO is bad and wrong for not immediately taking peace? If TSO didn't do anything wrong, why are you here saying SNX was right to then leave TSO for...what, because they're shifting around FA? That's not honorable, that's bureaucratic business.

So where was I wrong Sigrun? Did you not say you want the war to end? Did you not say it was in every way acceptable for SNX cut TSO? Did you not say that TSO should have accepted peace?
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You called SNX's move "honorable" and called it "the right thing" for abandoning their protectorate in the middle of a war.

 

You can hardly call it abandonment. TSO had an opportunity to de-escalate and chose to do the opposite. They have plenty of new friends jumping in to help them and do not want or need help from their former protector, whose counsel they have obviously spurned.

 

Now if no one else was helping them, and if MInc was not willing to make a reasonable peace, and SNX did this - in THAT case it would be abandonment, sure. But that's just not what's going on here.

 

Now beyond that - TSOs wrongful use of sanctions would spark me to cancel any treaty I hold with them regardless. That's an egregious violation at least an order of magnitude greater than anything MInc has done.

 

If TSO wants to fight then they should fight. Calling for outside help and using sanctions instead is not admirable behavior, it's despicable behavior, and everyone who is encouraging and enabling it should be ashamed of themselves.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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You can hardly call it abandonment. TSO had an opportunity to de-escalate and chose to do the opposite. They have plenty of new friends jumping in to help them and do not want or need help from their former protector, whose counsel they have obviously spurned.
 
Now if no one else was helping them, and if MInc was not willing to make a reasonable peace, and SNX did this - in THAT case it would be abandonment, sure. But that's just not what's going on here.
 
Now beyond that - TSOs wrongful use of sanctions would spark me to cancel any treaty I hold with them regardless. That's an egregious violation at least an order of magnitude greater than anything MInc has done.
 
If TSO wants to fight then they should fight. Calling for outside help and using sanctions instead is not admirable behavior, it's despicable behavior, and everyone who is encouraging and enabling it should be ashamed of themselves.


I can certainly call it abandonment, that's because it is. Just because they aren't being abandoned in a bleak situation doesn't make it any less an abandonment.

So again, you say that TSO should have taken peace, at the urging of SNX. That's fine, it still makes it petty to immediately turn around and cut ties.

For the record, I do not support the use of sanctions in warfare unless fighting rogues, and this was indeed a misstep by TSO in my opinion. An "egregious violation" not so much, but certainly poor move. That said, why is it despicable to ask for assistance in a defensive war? Because peace was offered? I'll keep that in mind for the future if I ever attack an alliance like TOP: I'll just offer white peace right away and if they don't accept they'd be utter scum to have the audacity to call in allies.

That said Sigrun, let's take a moment here to consider that neither of us are going to see eye to eye on this issue. I'll let you get your reply in and draw down, give other people a chance to go rounds with you or others.
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You can hardly call it abandonment. TSO had an opportunity to de-escalate and chose to do the opposite. They have plenty of new friends jumping in to help them and do not want or need help from their former protector, whose counsel they have obviously spurned.

 

Sure you can, they dropped their protectee in the middle of a defensive war that they had every right to keep fighting.

 

 

Now beyond that - TSOs wrongful use of sanctions would spark me to cancel any treaty I hold with them regardless. That's an egregious violation at least an order of magnitude greater than anything MInc has done.

 

They were attacked out of the blue, they used sanctions on their attackers, how is that wrong? Sanctions are just another tool of war, they have been used in wars forever.

 

 

If TSO wants to fight then they should fight. Calling for outside help and using sanctions instead is not admirable behavior, it's despicable behavior, and everyone who is encouraging and enabling it should be ashamed of themselves.

 

They are fighting and outside help is what treaties are all about, it's not despicable, it's why people sign treaties.

 

Also, I must agree with James Spanier about not seeing eye to eye on these issues but at least we can disagree without the name calling and vitriol that others must use so thank you for that.

  Edited by maxnmike
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Oh, won't someone think about the poor casualties. This announcement only confirms long-held suspicions about SNX, both internally and FA-wise. Not shocked either way.

And NoR are tenacious fighters and good allies. Not sure what Sigrun is all about.

You know, Lord Hitchcock, I would not say no to you declaring war on Monsters Inc on behalf of Non Grata. Just sayin'.

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For the record, I do not support the use of sanctions in warfare unless fighting rogues, and this was indeed a misstep by TSO in my opinion. An "egregious violation" not so much, but certainly poor move. That said, why is it despicable to ask for assistance in a defensive war? Because peace was offered? I'll keep that in mind for the future if I ever attack an alliance like TOP: I'll just offer white peace right away and if they don't accept they'd be utter scum to have the audacity to call in allies.

That said Sigrun, let's take a moment here to consider that neither of us are going to see eye to eye on this issue. I'll let you get your reply in and draw down, give other people a chance to go rounds with you or others.

 

I am glad we can agree on that at least. And I dont believe I said it was despicable to ask for help, that word was aimed specifically at the abuse of sanctions.

 

TSO has every right to fight this if they want to, but the point is they dont want to. Have you looked at their performance?

 

Now I would say if they want to fight, fight, if they want peace, then peace. What they seem to want instead is a third path, where they refuse peace only to lay down and take a beating then use *that* as an excuse to call in everyone else to fight for them. And I am not going to buy that.

 

If they really need a 1000% numerical advantage to fight (which appears to be the case) then it would be much more sensible just to accept peace so they can focus on their internal issues.

 

We dont have to agree on everything for there to be a productive conversation. I believe we have had one, and I thank you.

 

 

They were attacked out of the blue, they used sanctions on their attackers, how is that wrong? Sanctions are just another tool of war, they have been used in wars forever.

 

 

One of the oldest and most important customs here, one of the very few things that one can point to as constituting some sort of civilized mores on this world, is that sanctions are reserved for rogues and not to be used in legitimate warfare. They have no place in it and that is a strong position I have held as long as I have been on this world. Yes, it's been violated in the past, but that does not nullify it, it just points again to how closely our existence here approximates abject savagery and how important it is to follow the tiny handful of rules that separate us from that.

 

You know when you nuke a nation you affect one nation, the one you targetted (and hopefully have good reason to target.) When you sanction a nation you can affect a dozen different nations who had nothing to do with your conflict. It's unhealthy for the world as a whole, and it's an act of war committed not against a single nation, but against your entire sphere.

Edited by Sigrun Vapneir
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I am glad we can agree on that at least. And I dont believe I said it was despicable to ask for help, that word was aimed specifically at the abuse of sanctions.

 

TSO has every right to fight this if they want to, but the point is they dont want to. Have you looked at their performance?

 

Now I would say if they want to fight, fight, if they want peace, then peace. What they seem to want instead is a third path, where they refuse peace only to lay down and take a beating then use *that* as an excuse to call in everyone else to fight for them. And I am not going to buy that.

 

If they really need a 1000% numerical advantage to fight (which appears to be the case) then it would be much more sensible just to accept peace so they can focus on their internal issues.

 

We dont have to agree on everything for there to be a productive conversation. I believe we have had one, and I thank you.

 

 

One of the oldest and most important customs here, one of the very few things that one can point to as constituting some sort of civilized mores on this world, is that sanctions are reserved for rogues and not to be used in legitimate warfare. They have no place in it and that is a strong position I have held as long as I have been on this world. Yes, it's been violated in the past, but that does not nullify it, it just points again to how closely our existence here approximates abject savagery and how important it is to follow the tiny handful of rules that separate us from that.

 

You know when you nuke a nation you affect one nation, the one you targetted (and hopefully have good reason to target.) When you sanction a nation you can affect a dozen different nations who had nothing to do with your conflict. It's unhealthy for the world as a whole, and it's an act of war committed not against a single nation, but against your entire sphere.

 

 

It used to be in a time long gone that nukes were reserved for those worst of offenders, the rogue. Then the genie was let out of the bottle and now every war turns into a nuke fest just as fast as people can press the big red button and nukes affect every nation on BoB with the rise of the GRL so really, nukes are worse than sanctions yet no one finds them a bad thing to use these days.

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The views about the this situation are pretty one sided. Sure, it's arguable that SNX have abandoned TSO but it's equally arguable that TSO have abandoned SNX by failing to recognise the situation that SNX are in right now. It's not a one way street. To my mind this is for the best, TSO aren't in need of the help of SNX and SNX can well do without being in a war right now. They've had no forums for a month. TSO could have ended this, they chose not to - to my mind the right choice - and that choice has meant them separating from SNX. Don't make it more than it is.

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The views about the this situation are pretty one sided. Sure, it's arguable that SNX have abandoned TSO but it's equally arguable that TSO have abandoned SNX by failing to recognise the situation that SNX are in right now. It's not a one way street. To my mind this is for the best, TSO aren't in need of the help of SNX and SNX can well do without being in a war right now. They've had no forums for a month. TSO could have ended this, they chose not to - to my mind the right choice - and that choice has meant them separating from SNX. Don't make it more than it is.


It's not hard to tell your protectorate "if you do not take this peace you do so you without our military support". There's even precedent of doing it as high up as MDoAP allies, most recently what comes to mind is IRON-NG, granted under difference sorts of circumstances (ones that make this a walk in the park).

The fact that SNX, the #19 alliance, is unable to tango with the #78 alliance even with TSO, TSC, DS, NADC, and some other AA's I forget, says some pretty awful things about SNX. At least they admit it I guess? Again though, as stated above and quite honestly towards the raw power of numbers, SNX wouldn't even be particularly needed in this, MI's already too crowded. There was no pressing need for either an immediate DoW or cancellation. Maybe SNX has some other underlying reason, I hope so.

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No forums for a month is not an excuse for not taking part in a war in my book. No forums for a day or two meaning you hold off on a declaration whilst you sort yourself out? That I can buy. But a forum is not a hard thing to establish. Temporary forums, even if just existing for a week or two is not a hard thing to co-ordinate. We have ingame alliance management features now that can act as a pseudo forum as well. By the time you have reached a month without forums, that is your negligence and not an excuse to back out of war. 

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