The Big Boss

[The Zigur]

And before DBDC it was the untouchable neutrals.  Kudos to DBDC for all they've done to demolish the neutral menace who collected their pixels while the rest of us all destroyed our own. 

 

None of the serious alliances in recent memory had the objective of destroying the neutrals, the last time that ambition amounted to something was during the woodstock massacre in 2008.

 

For most alliances the classic objective has been hegemonic dominance rather than directly imperial: that is, to consolidate political and ideological power, rather than directly impose complete military superiority. Pacifican imperialism and the woodstock massacre in 2008-2009 came about as a result of hegemonic decline, and represented the deterioration of their foreign policy. Pacifican military might, although impressive, came to nothing once their hegemonic power was completely shattered during the Karma/Armageddon war.

 

DBDC imperialism, however, is directly built upon tier-based imperialist exploitation. Whereas events like the woodstock massacre marked the decline of the old hegemony, the attacks on WTF represents imperialist ascension.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Tywin Lannister

[Franz Ferdinand]

Terrible judgement. Really terrible. Not only did you Godwin the thread but you appear to be calling *your own side* Nazis, without a hint of embarrasment.

The intention was not to imply that my side was that but the underlying message, as a result I realised the potential controversy of it and provided an alternative quotation.

Simply put the fact that the World Task Force were unwilling to assist when others were being subjugated over the past decade and now that it's their head on the block, there aren't many real takers to bail them out.

[Caliph]

 

You realize this makes absolutely no sense at all?

 

By your logic, if I walk up and sucker punch you, lay you out on the ground, all I have to do is offer to quit at that point, and if you decide to fight instead, YOU are the aggressor?

 

It doesnt work like that. Not in this world or any other.

 

 

That isn't a good analogy.  A better one is WTF sitting back watching bar fights ever week, laughing and watching, then finally one person who won the last bar  fight goes up and picks a fight with them.  WTF gets thrashed soundly, is laying on the ground, bleeding and dazed, and DBDC says "you good bro" and WTF says "we aren't done yet you (expletives deleted)" and gets up to smack DBDC some more.  And gets beaten down even worse.  They keep getting up, and thrashed even worse each time.  

 

The beating have been far less severe and short term in damage if they swallowed that pride and accepted the white peace.  Instead they keep fighting for the sake of fighting, and while they have heart it is a dumb long term move, wrecking their alliance for the small gains in damage against DBDC.

[Franz Ferdinand]

That isn't a good analogy.  A better one is WTF sitting back watching bar fights ever week, laughing and watching, then finally one person who won the last bar  fight goes up and picks a fight with them.  WTF gets thrashed soundly, is laying on the ground, bleeding and dazed, and DBDC says "you good bro" and WTF says "we aren't done yet you (expletives deleted)" and gets up to smack DBDC some more.  And gets beaten down even worse.  They keep getting up, and thrashed even worse each time.  
 
The beating have been far less severe and short term in damage if they swallowed that pride and accepted the white peace.  Instead they keep fighting for the sake of fighting, and while they have heart it is a dumb long term move, wrecking their alliance for the small gains in damage against DBDC.

Sounds similar to Mickey from the film Porky's to me, but in that film they eventually destroy the eponymous nightclub.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Look Caliph, even accepting your rather contrived analogy, the aggressor is still the aggressor. I really dont get this idea that just because the guy you attacked fights back you are the victim. Like the burglar that broke his leg and sued the homeowner?

 

Y'all are the dark knights of this game, the evil badasses (nearly) everyone fears, and it is just so bizaare to see you try to play the victim. Even OOC? 

 

As to the actual tactical situation... I'll tell you how I see this.

 

This was supposed to go down like the Pax raid. Knock em down out of range neatly before they knew what was happening and then disengage smelling like roses. The targets would have been rather strongly incentivized to grumblingly accept the status quo.

 

But WTF was larger than Pax. More people were needed. Spirits were high, volunteers in abundance, so more people were brought in. Too many, and some with insufficient individual NS. And to complicate matters, unlike Pax, WTF was willing to blow warchest to buy back in range. A few, I am not sure how many but noobcakes and I gather a few others, just a few of the doombirds were pulled under and continue to be engaged.

 

So at that point it's DBDC that needs the war to end, not WTF. And you can keep talking about damage ratios and so on all day but it's utterly irrelevant. War isnt about numbers, war is about outcomes. They've taken all the damage and they know they cant undo it, but they've got one lever in the process and how could you not anticipate they would torque it just as hard as they could?

 

From what Asa has written I would bet they have been willing to accept just about any offer made, but none have really been made. Letting it be generally known that you are expecting white peace is not the same thing, and let's not even mention a certain bunch of oranges trying to play the goons. That's not diplomacy, that's insulting.

 

Are noobcakes and whoever else is in play here really so important as to motivate BloodPack, yet not important enough for anyone to offer even 100 tech for their parole? It defies reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerdge]

[...] Y'all are the dark knights of this game, the evil badasses (nearly) everyone fears, and it is just so bizaare to see you try to play the victim. Even OOC? [...]

Are you really still surprised when you realize what OOC distances some people can travel, over this silly game? And here I thought you were an hardened CNer... :P

 

 

[hr]On topic: my previous question was to try understand if the DBDC had asked for peace and the "mean" WTFers were really refusing* to negotiate an end for the war. As the answer was that it was just a case of parties not agreeing on the terms, I don't see how this situation is any different from any one of the other countless wars that, before ending, were still ongoing (Lapalisse comes to mind!) My interest for that debate is thus basically already over: nothing really new to think about.

 

I am certainly no authority to determine who should make the bigger concessions in order to end the war and it's a bit funny that so many think they instead have that authority. Just watch the fireworks, or ignore the issue in case you're not interested!

If you're instead involved you may consider have the decency to keep your IC propaganda in the IC forums (although, hey: it's just the "drooling around" kind of indecency, not really the "harming others" other kind, thus feel free to continue with that extravaganza, if that's your cup of tea.)

 

The OP may be JMD trying to "subtly" rouse a resistance movement or maybe he is really interested in the "Big Boss" dynamics. Judging from his post history I am personally inclined towards the latter, but it's a matter of opinions. The subject would make for an interesting discussion, TBH, but apparently people prefer to assign the victim/perpetrator roles, let "make believe" morals and propaganda flood every corner of the OWF, thus I doubt we'll ever have an honest discussion on the subject.

It is what it is.

 

 

* Which to be clear would be 100% in their rights to do, the situation considered: any player can play the game as they want, in my book, as long as they respect the rules and they also try to be fair. The DBDC are big boys and I don't really think anyone can seriously claim that they're the hopeless victim held in permanent warfare by a much stronger group of players. Stress on "seriously".

Edited April 1, 2015 by jerdge

[TIEIXIAIS]

Look Caliph, even accepting your rather contrived analogy, the aggressor is still the aggressor. I really dont get this idea that just because the guy you attacked fights back you are the victim. Like the burglar that broke his leg and sued the homeowner?

 

Y'all are the dark knights of this game, the evil badasses (nearly) everyone fears, and it is just so bizaare to see you try to play the victim. Even OOC? 

 

As to the actual tactical situation... I'll tell you how I see this.

 

This was supposed to go down like the Pax raid. Knock em down out of range neatly before they knew what was happening and then disengage smelling like roses. The targets would have been rather strongly incentivized to grumblingly accept the status quo.

 

But WTF was larger than Pax. More people were needed. Spirits were high, volunteers in abundance, so more people were brought in. Too many, and some with insufficient individual NS. And to complicate matters, unlike Pax, WTF was willing to blow warchest to buy back in range. A few, I am not sure how many but noobcakes and I gather a few others, just a few of the doombirds were pulled under and continue to be engaged.

 

So at that point it's DBDC that needs the war to end, not WTF. And you can keep talking about damage ratios and so on all day but it's utterly irrelevant. War isnt about numbers, war is about outcomes. They've taken all the damage and they know they cant undo it, but they've got one lever in the process and how could you not anticipate they would torque it just as hard as they could?

 

From what Asa has written I would bet they have been willing to accept just about any offer made, but none have really been made. Letting it be generally known that you are expecting white peace is not the same thing, and let's not even mention a certain bunch of oranges trying to play the goons. That's not diplomacy, that's insulting.

 

Are noobcakes and whoever else is in play here really so important as to motivate BloodPack, yet not important enough for anyone to offer even 100 tech for their parole? It defies reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

DBDC has knocked them out of range....they can't do anything. Now they are just getting raided by micros. Where do you see this desperate need for peace on DBDC's part? Cuba and Renegade? You serious bro?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

DBDC has knocked them out of range....they can't do anything. Now they are just getting raided by micros. Where do you see this desperate need for peace on DBDC's part? Cuba and Renegade? You serious bro?

 

I didnt say anything about 'desperate' I dont know the warchest amounts etc. Bloodpack seems to be doing fine in terms of destruction. But destruction doesnt get noobcakes peace, does it?  And again I dont know his warchest but if it's good why is he trying to run to ODN?

 

If it had been my raid I would feel some obligation to him here.

 

Heck, it's not my raid and I am still feeling bad for him. All this war in his name but no one makes any genuine effort to get him peace.

[TIEIXIAIS]

 

I didnt say anything about 'desperate' I dont know the warchest amounts etc. Bloodpack seems to be doing fine in terms of destruction. But destruction doesnt get noobcakes peace, does it?  And again I dont know his warchest but if it's good why is he trying to run to ODN?

 

If it had been my raid I would feel some obligation to him here.

 

Heck, it's not my raid and I am still feeling bad for him. All this war in his name but no one makes any genuine effort to get him peace.

Peace has been offered. WTF will either accept it or receive the same fate of the previous gramlins. It's self destructive which is why all their whining and self loathing is hilarious.

[Rush Sykes]

Has it occurred to anyone that winning this game now involves developing a strategy to destroy DBDC? They have positioned themselves as the "end boss" of this video game.

 

Unless you enjoy playing to lose, you should all be thinking about that dynamic. I may be biased, but I am also undeniably correct. Sooner or later the only way for all of you to not continue being losing losers who lose is to confront DBDC. Any non DBDC alliance strategy, of any alliance who wants to not be losers, should answer the question "how do we destroy DBDC?"

 

If you are not playing to win, why bother continuing to play?

 

This is said with no resentment to DBDC, the only alliance, in fact, comprised of winning winners who win. They are the winners and you are the losers. Even their lackeys losers who are pet and fed regularly. Submitting before the power of winners does not make you one.

 

Seriously though, everyone... why protect your pixels, if all you are going to do with them... is lose? Are you all more satisfied to have a big stack of lose than a little one?

 

Member of WTF telling people that if they dont play to win, why bother playing. Seems legit.

 

Has it ever occurred to you that your alliance, which has given nothing to the community for years, made 0 contribution in any way shape or form to the "game", does not have one single member that has the standing to tell ANY of the rest of us how to play the game? You chose a do-nothing, play-nothing alliance, you did nothing, you played nothing. Enjoy the "fruits" of that, I do not care if DBDC  and all their allies leave smoking craters of every WTF, GPA, OBR, or any other non-player in politics. I simply do. not. care.

[Unknown Smurf]

No, I ignored you because this question has been answered on a number of occassions. I have even directly quoted Asa in the past saying they had come forward about white peace and still denied that peace was ever offered. It has always been on the table. WTF has the ability to end the war, but they choose to fight on. This argument is hilarious and futile.

WTF has an out; that is a matter-of-fact. WTF didn't like the out. As a result they have lost members, and their ability to fight in the upper tier. They've even managed to have an alliance affiliation flare up that's soul purpose is to harass them for their terrible decisions. WTF has accused these people of being 'Opportunist' and 'cowards'; how a small 20 man alliance in a NS range where WTF dominates but won't fight makes bloodpack cowards I don't know. WTF is the one who won't fight them. WTF can't pursue DBDC. WTF's ability to carry out war on their illusion of an enemy is non-existent and the best they will ever achieve is a mosquito's status of nuisance.

You sound butthurt that the easy exp/land TBR offered you isn't happening.

What do you expect after DBDC knocks down these huge nations with giant WCs? You're sitting there throwing rocks at their ankles. Of course they're gonna wreck you on the way out.

[Unknown Smurf]

That point is irrelevant, the fact remains they were offered white peace, and they refused. Yes, they have every right to refuse, but they don't have a right to complain that DBDC is evil and out to destroy them when they have, in fact, given them an out well before this escalated to the point it has, and if they have proven anything, it's that they could have easily rebuilt back to what they had lost.
 
Now I'm not saying that they should or should not have fought back, but the fact that remains is, they made a choice, and they don't need to complain anymore at this point.

Where has WTF complained? Seriously. The complaints have come from many, but not WTF. From my understanding they are enjoying this.

[TIEIXIAIS]

You sound butthurt that the easy exp/land TBR offered you isn't happening.

What do you expect after DBDC knocks down these huge nations with giant WCs? You're sitting there throwing rocks at their ankles. Of course they're gonna wreck you on the way out.

What are you going on about? You sound like the crazy cat lady next door.

[Caliph]

Look Caliph, even accepting your rather contrived analogy, the aggressor is still the aggressor. I really dont get this idea that just because the guy you attacked fights back you are the victim. Like the burglar that broke his leg and sued the homeowner?

 

Y'all are the dark knights of this game, the evil badasses (nearly) everyone fears, and it is just so bizaare to see you try to play the victim. Even OOC? 

 

As to the actual tactical situation... I'll tell you how I see this.

 

This was supposed to go down like the Pax raid. Knock em down out of range neatly before they knew what was happening and then disengage smelling like roses. The targets would have been rather strongly incentivized to grumblingly accept the status quo.

 

But WTF was larger than Pax. More people were needed. Spirits were high, volunteers in abundance, so more people were brought in. Too many, and some with insufficient individual NS. And to complicate matters, unlike Pax, WTF was willing to blow warchest to buy back in range. A few, I am not sure how many but noobcakes and I gather a few others, just a few of the doombirds were pulled under and continue to be engaged.

 

So at that point it's DBDC that needs the war to end, not WTF. And you can keep talking about damage ratios and so on all day but it's utterly irrelevant. War isnt about numbers, war is about outcomes. They've taken all the damage and they know they cant undo it, but they've got one lever in the process and how could you not anticipate they would torque it just as hard as they could?

 

From what Asa has written I would bet they have been willing to accept just about any offer made, but none have really been made. Letting it be generally known that you are expecting white peace is not the same thing, and let's not even mention a certain bunch of oranges trying to play the goons. That's not diplomacy, that's insulting.

 

Are noobcakes and whoever else is in play here really so important as to motivate BloodPack, yet not important enough for anyone to offer even 100 tech for their parole? It defies reason.

 

 

What a big to do about not addressing anything.

 

Nobody is denying WTF got attacked by DBDC. 

 

Looking at the stats, literally every single WTF nation is either in peace or has been beaten out of range of DBDC, with the sole exceptions of the current wars on DBDC by WTF, which aren't a lot.  WTF has lost, but they refuse to let this go and keep the war on.  That is their choice, but in making that choice they are causing more long term damage to their alliance than if they had accepted the peace when it was offered.

 

While it is true that DBDC attacked WTF, it remains a fact that the conflict still rages on solely because of WTF at this point.  DBDC will indeed defend themselves and attack WTF when and where they can, but the continuation of this lies solely at WTF's feet.

 

Maybe you are thinking if they keep fighting long enough they will pull a Vox Populi or VietFAN type of victory in the end?
 

[Groucho Marx]

WTF did nothing when Pax Corvus was hit, and now you want the rest of the world to do something now that you're being attacked? Good luck with that.

[Unknown Smurf]

 

What a big to do about not addressing anything.

 

Nobody is denying WTF got attacked by DBDC. 

 

Looking at the stats, literally every single WTF nation is either in peace or has been beaten out of range of DBDC, with the sole exceptions of the current wars on DBDC by WTF, which aren't a lot.  WTF has lost, but they refuse to let this go and keep the war on.  That is their choice, but in making that choice they are causing more long term damage to their alliance than if they had accepted the peace when it was offered.

 

While it is true that DBDC attacked WTF, it remains a fact that the conflict still rages on solely because of WTF at this point.  DBDC will indeed defend themselves and attack WTF when and where they can, but the continuation of this lies solely at WTF's feet.

 

Maybe you are thinking if they keep fighting long enough they will pull a Vox Populi or VietFAN type of victory in the end?
 

 

WTF has 34 offensive declarations and 21 defensive ones. I'm not sure why you aren't counting blood pack and the other various AAs.. they did the same thing to WTF that DBDC did, except that they weren't smart enough to be too big for retaliation. 

 

It's like WTF said, this is about taking care of opportunists. Maybe not destroying them but hurting them to a point where they know better than to do this again (at least to WTF). 

 

It's unfortunate because there are a lot of people I like on the blood pack AA, but OOC that was a very stupid move. I even told a couple friends who asked me before hitting WTF that doing so was a bad idea. 

 

EDIT: Or wait? Are you and DBDC advocating that WTF should take the white peace with DBDC and keep fighting the others? 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[eejack]

If you are not playing to win, why bother continuing to play?

 

You do realize there is no winning or losing in this game?

Edited April 1, 2015 by EEjack

[White Chocolate]

DBDC certainly has most the top 10 nations, so in that way they have "won".  They have also made themselves a very sweet political position since most alliances want to keep their high tier nations and they have done a good job having other high tier groups as allies.  Big plus there as well as far as being "The Big Boss."  However imo it's still possible for them to lose it, if it happens anytime soon however it would probably be the result of internal disagreements and/or just not caring and not anything from outside.  But I could be wrong.

 

 

From what Asa has written I would bet they have been willing to accept just about any offer made, but none have really been made. Letting it be generally known that you are expecting white peace is not the same thing, and let's not even mention a certain bunch of oranges trying to play the goons. That's not diplomacy, that's insulting.

 

Are noobcakes and whoever else is in play here really so important as to motivate BloodPack, yet not important enough for anyone to offer even 100 tech for their parole? It defies reason.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope.  Cuba made a "white peace" offer.  WTF said no.  People in WTF have made various joke counter proposals (which Asa has said are all jokes.)  However there has not been any serious counter offers for peace.  Of course, it's WTF's right not to give any counter proposal for peace and I will refrain on giving any opinion on the matter here regarding who should be doing what.  However, to the best of my knowledge WTF has not made a real counter offer to end the war.  That is a fact.  Think what you want of it.

Edited April 2, 2015 by White Chocolate

[Steve Buscemi]

I read your OP, don't care, feel annoyed I was duped into another DBDC thread, then realized I didn't know who had the uglier avatar.  OP's avatar or mine?

[Franz Ferdinand]

I read your OP, don't care, feel annoyed I was duped into another DBDC thread, then realized I didn't know who had the uglier avatar.  OP's avatar or mine?

The one thing I can say in relation to that is mine is far sexier than both of yours.

As an aside, World Task Force, I'm waiting for masking on your forums or actually been hit. Got to get those casualties somehow!

[rileyaddaff]

Do we really need a thread to explain & figure out who the aggressor is? News flash, it's the first AA to declare war or commit a raid on an alliance.

Congratulations WTF. Over the past decade you clearly established your alliance as an isolationist AA. As Franz said (too lazy to quote) you turned your back on those that needed your help. Now your the one's on the soapbox asking for help and wondering why no one is listening. slow claps

[Asa Phillips]

There were some people coming to appeal to you on irc seeing you as their only 'hope' to do something about it. Of course, they were dismissed from a high horse.

That is an absolute lie. And a pathetic attempt of one at that. We've never had an IRC [i]we[/i] use where anyone outside of WTF can find it.

 

 

DBDC offered white peace to WTF after the first round, I believe. They refused, as is their right, so DBDC continued.

Incorrect. You believe wrong. Its interesting how everyone EXCEPT DBDC is coming out and saying DBDC offered us peace. Yes, Cuba made contact around day ten when WTF nations began to counter with a message that was obviously a prelude to discussing peace.

 

There was never a peace offer. Nor a desire for one.

 

The ball was put in WTF's court, and considering they have offered nothing within reason or anything at all, they are the perpetrators at this point. WTF is only damaging itself at this point and to expect DBDC to pay for self WTF's inflicted wounds is troll worthy.

EDIT: Grammar - Subject

Absolutely. Because we play the game very differently from you, we must certainly have the same definition of "damage" right? Haha.

 

Just because you care how many pixels you have, and how many political friends you keep, and how many hours you can waste spinning speculation into fact in your mind. We don't. None of what matters most to you? Matters to us. It never has, it never will. We're fine with that, why it bothers you so much its lost to us.

 

please explain why this is the case noting that World Task Force have spent practically the past decade giving off a "holier than thou" vibe and not wanting to actively get involved within the world.

Holier that thou?

 

Ok. I'll actually take the bait on this one. Please explain how leaving the rest of CN alone to do as they wish is holier than tho? This should be entertaining.

What are you going on about? You sound like the crazy cat lady next door.

Have you read YOUR posts at all? :lol1:

 

WTF did nothing when Pax Corvus was hit, and now you want the rest of the world to do something now that you're being attacked? Good luck with that.

We did nothing when GPA was hit as well all those years ago. Nor when TDO was hit. Or when Old Guard was biting the pillow. Because you lump us in with them, doesn't mean we are obligated to feel the same way, and that they shouldn't either.

 

If you can find anywhere that WTF has asked for help from anyone, even though it was offered? Your either dreaming, intoxicated, high, or off your meds.

 

Congratulations WTF. Over the past decade you clearly established your alliance as an isolationist AA. As Franz said (too lazy to quote) you turned your back on those that needed your help. Now your the one's on the soapbox asking for help and wondering why no one is listening. slow claps

Thanks, but WTF hasn't asked anyone for help. No matter how badly any of you want to believe that. And 8.5 years is hardly a "decade", nonsense statements that start off with exaggerated facts carry little significance to anyone but the self-important individual who made them.

 

You're the latest one in this thread to drink the juice... so how about you fill all of us in as to where we have asked for help? and how asking for help would change anything? We're doing [i]exactly[/i] what we said to DBDC we would do probably a year ago when the subject came up. The war was inevitable, we made our position clear so they knew what the outcome would be. Asking for help would only make us a group of players who didn't keep their word, no?

 

We're keeping it. DBDC isn't really getting upset about it anymore, why the rest of you are? Is confusing.

[Branimir]

That is an absolute lie. And a pathetic attempt of one at that. We've never had an IRC we use where anyone outside of WTF can find it.

 

Then it was the forums. Either way it happened, the details unimportant to the point raised.

[Prodigal Moon]

I don't read the OP as a plea for help, just a (mostly/until now) uninvolved third party wondering why the rest of us let the game get to this point. In that regard, I think it's fair to point to the temptation of appeasement, even if the real life historical examples are a bit dramatic.

 

Regardless of what sort of imbalance of NS was held by the hegemonies of the past, I don't think we've ever seen seen a logistical challenge like the one posed by DBDC. It's not just a matter of swaying enough NS to take them out. You specifically need enough nations in an extremely narrow band of NS at the top in order to even challenge them. And while you're gathering that together, they can knock what nations you do have out of range, and then safely reload, without worrying about counters. That's totally different from the wars of attrition that get fought around here. Not to mention with the increase in tech aid slots and uncapping land, there are now NS disparities like we've never seen before.

 

Someone mentioned how Umbrella's upper tier pre-EQ was similar, but this really only proves the point. EQ failed to drag them all down - not for a lack of total NS on the NPO/AI/IRON side, but due to the imbalance in the upper tier - and now the remnants are nearly untouchable. I don't think DBDC would even exist if the NPO/AI/IRON side had about 20 more 150k NS nations during EQ.

[Branimir]

I don't read the OP....

 

Friendly advice.

 

You and the OP should move your agenda to the only alliance in the game, which is also the most interested by the virtue of its 'proximity' to the situation, that can actually do something- GPA. Go and appeal to them, try to make one of the biggest political coups in game history and get them involved. Not only would that be 'epic', you might as well give it a go as there are fertile lands there. You never know.

 

Currently you are just agitating in the wrong way the rest of us on the sidelines that can not do anything about it, by your judgmental, misguided and preachy way you want to appeal to us.

 

It is good advice.