why isnt 9mil/100 tech deal the standard

[The Zigur]

DBDC buys tech for 6 mil/200 tech. DBDC is the best. All hail DBDC. (I would really appreciate selling tech for 9 mil/100 though, that's nice...)

Sitting there and being exploited will get you nowhere ;)

[Helios]

Seasoned buyers... No, older and sub 100k nations who have the wonders up to the WRC and have a decent trade circle.

Can make 200 million every 20 days after bills so even after the 54 million deduction its only a quarter of their income.

Making a billion every 100 days if buying nothing else isn't eating into their warchest.

 

Hmm, I stand corrected then, if only partially; 54m for 600 tech is not a fair transaction. 

 

 

This is a good example of an upper tier nation thinking from the perspective of exploitation. He is blind to the importance of having robust low tier nations and only sees their value in terms of providing him cheap tech. It is why in a more balanced conflict than the current war, between an upper tier parasite force and a lower tier producerist force the lower tier would would enjoy tech production dominance (the ability to deny tech production and even poach exploited tech producers).

 

You talk about dominance yet you consistently fail to regard or otherwise deliberately ignore, the advantages of technology, specifically that it is the second prime warfighting resource after money. The ultimate use of tech is that of applying a destructive effect to your opponent. In a conflict between two nations, the one with the greater amount of tech almost always wins. How does a nation acquire more tech than the enemy? By performing advantageous tech deals. You can argue all day about whether buyers and sellers see each other as nothing more than tech/cash cows, it is ultimately irrelevant because it's based on individual interactions.

 

You also overestimate massively the value of a robust lower tier- everybody has a lower tier that can be robust, everybody has the potential to disrupt tech production. What not everybody has is a technologically powerful upper/mid tier.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

Personally I think 9/200 is pretty fair too. For buyers the amount of cash generally isnt the issue, it's the slot usage. A slot is a slot, it makes no discernable difference to my bottom line if I 6mil or 9, I'd be happy to send 12 if I could for the same return. But slot for slot is a sweetheart deal for close allies and open market should be one for two in my mind.

 

Then again the thing about any open market is that it sets its own prices without being dependent on what any one of us thinks it should be, no?

[Lord bagel]

Ok, this is worst than the proposed idea!! Free transfer of both??

I think it is optimal. I have intentionof ever competing for the same limited tech supply as the rest of my alliance mates. I'm more then content shipping 1800 tech out a month for my alliance

[gatorback05]

Give new nations a FAC for free.

 

Also, 9mil/200 tech is standard.  WE GREEDY.

Edited January 29, 2015 by gatorback05

[The Zigur]

I think it is optimal. I have intentionof ever competing for the same limited tech supply as the rest of my alliance mates. I'm more then content shipping 1800 tech out a month for my alliance

  

There's a program in Polaris that allows tech producers to dedicate themselves to constant tech production, and their production is recorded in case they want to cash in later, kind of like a tech bank.

Honestly Polar is so well designed I'm surprised there isn't some kind of tourism group to show how awesome Polaris is to visiting dignitaries. Time to go nag the Emperor :awesome:

Hmm, I stand corrected then, if only partially; 54m for 600 tech is not a fair transaction. 
 
You talk about dominance yet you consistently fail to regard or otherwise deliberately ignore, the advantages of technology, specifically that it is the second prime warfighting resource after money. The ultimate use of tech is that of applying a destructive effect to your opponent. In a conflict between two nations, the one with the greater amount of tech almost always wins. How does a nation acquire more tech than the enemy? By performing advantageous tech deals. You can argue all day about whether buyers and sellers see each other as nothing more than tech/cash cows, it is ultimately irrelevant because it's based on individual interactions.
 
You also overestimate massively the value of a robust lower tier- everybody has a lower tier that can be robust, everybody has the potential to disrupt tech production. What not everybody has is a technologically powerful upper/mid tier.

If your tech is situated at 150k, and most of your opponents are at 50k or below, that tech is useless. In such a war scenario a 50k nation can pump just as much cash aid as a 150k nation, but in practice because a mass recruiting alliance has more membership there will probably be more aid slots being sent out. In such a conflict the majority of fighting that could take place would be among tech producing nations, were a tech denial strategy implemented by the low-tier producer alliance.

This brings up some points:

*The upper tier alliance will need low and mid-tier meatshields like R&R to fight effectively
*Upper tier nations in mass-recruitment alliances will have their arm twisted by foreign parasitical interests
*There is thus a political contradiction between producing nations and some upper tier nations in mass recruitment alliances

So long as a few upper tier nations in otherwise productive alliances, typically the same nations who disobey orders and hide in peace mode during war, have political power, lower tier producers will never realize their full potential (and thus rarely obtain fair tech compensation). In fact although I bought the FAC many months ago, only in Polaris did it really pay itself off. Edited January 29, 2015 by Tywin Lannister

[scolar visari]

NpO seems like the perfect alliance for a seller tbh, if no one is willing to do 9/100 deals with you, sellers should find an alliance that will.

[The Zigur]

NpO seems like the perfect alliance for a seller tbh, if no one is willing to do 9/100 deals with you, sellers should find an alliance that will.

I think any mass recruitment alliance can do it, it's simply a question of strong leadership, some political spine, and the willingness to put boots to asses. But holding onto outdated ideals like "democracy" or any kind of nation strength based oligarchy will doom such an effort from the start. Edited January 29, 2015 by Tywin Lannister

[BringMeTheHorizon]

Sheesh, when I started I did 3/150 deals. 

 

I think of it this way, and try to explain it to people who only offer 6/100 deals for their AA when I come asking. Of course I make enough money for 6/100 9/200 9/100, though does it benefit the new player at all to grow so fast? Not really. From my point of view, working with new nations for quite a bit, it's hard to tell them not to spend all their money on tech, or growing right away. They want to grow, it's how they keep interested in the game. Though what happens if you grow, spend all that money, then get attacked. Have no money to defend yourself, and are at a higher NS where people might have wonders, and you only have an FAC, and DRA. After four months of playing. You get dropped down to where you were at a month ago, or two months ago (depending on which type of nation attacked you). Since you had no money, your AA had to dump more money into your nation to help you survive the attack, thus disrupting more tech deals (damaging your own AA's ability to fight). Then they have to start all over with those tech deals, which were disrupted for about a month to keep you on track growing. 

 

Most brand new nations don't know the ability of a war chest, or want to save their money. Very few i've come across actually do this. It's actually in their best interest in the game to do tech deals at the 6/200 rate. It allows them to have a schedule to come back to keep them in the game (because it's a months worth of work instead of 20 days). It helps teach them the game more, allows them to be relatively in the best NS range when people attack, or there is a war. It helps teach them about back collects, as well as improvement swapping. 

 

You can explain everything to a new nation, first this, then that. Though do they always listen, because they've never had to deal with a rogue attack or an alliance war? No. It's simpler, and better for them to grow small instead of fast. and better for the alliance.

 

 

Also, more practical reason why that shouldn't happen. If every tech sellers does 9/100 and grows to 3,999/4,999 infra really fast, and we have nations trickling into the game everyday. Do they magically start becoming buyers, or do they stay sellers. All that will happen with higher return for tech sellers is that the line you need to get to, to buy just gets higher, and higher. Again, once you get high enough, and war comes around you could be at 5k infra in like 6 months, with no tech. Then you get attacked by someone with 1k tech, 2k tech, 3k tech etcetc you'll get obliterated. It's all about keeping the nation safe, and able to defend itself, and having higher returns for tech sellers just hurts them. Especially if the standard was 9/100 even 6/100. 

[Musmahhu]

Interesting topic.

[Artigo]

Sitting there and being exploited will get you nowhere ;)

 

Except #winning apparently

[The Zigur]

Except #winning apparently

You're the one #winning, not phoenix king ;)

[scolar visari]

Sheesh, when I started I did 3/150 deals. 

 

I think of it this way, and try to explain it to people who only offer 6/100 deals for their AA when I come asking. Of course I make enough money for 6/100 9/200 9/100, though does it benefit the new player at all to grow so fast? Not really. From my point of view, working with new nations for quite a bit, it's hard to tell them not to spend all their money on tech, or growing right away. They want to grow, it's how they keep interested in the game. Though what happens if you grow, spend all that money, then get attacked. Have no money to defend yourself, and are at a higher NS where people might have wonders, and you only have an FAC, and DRA. After four months of playing. You get dropped down to where you were at a month ago, or two months ago (depending on which type of nation attacked you). Since you had no money, your AA had to dump more money into your nation to help you survive the attack, thus disrupting more tech deals (damaging your own AA's ability to fight). Then they have to start all over with those tech deals, which were disrupted for about a month to keep you on track growing. 

 

Most brand new nations don't know the ability of a war chest, or want to save their money. Very few i've come across actually do this. It's actually in their best interest in the game to do tech deals at the 6/200 rate. It allows them to have a schedule to come back to keep them in the game (because it's a months worth of work instead of 20 days). It helps teach them the game more, allows them to be relatively in the best NS range when people attack, or there is a war. It helps teach them about back collects, as well as improvement swapping. 

 

You can explain everything to a new nation, first this, then that. Though do they always listen, because they've never had to deal with a rogue attack or an alliance war? No. It's simpler, and better for them to grow small instead of fast. and better for the alliance.

 

 

Also, more practical reason why that shouldn't happen. If every tech sellers does 9/100 and grows to 3,999/4,999 infra really fast, and we have nations trickling into the game everyday. Do they magically start becoming buyers, or do they stay sellers. All that will happen with higher return for tech sellers is that the line you need to get to, to buy just gets higher, and higher. Again, once you get high enough, and war comes around you could be at 5k infra in like 6 months, with no tech. Then you get attacked by someone with 1k tech, 2k tech, 3k tech etcetc you'll get obliterated. It's all about keeping the nation safe, and able to defend itself, and having higher returns for tech sellers just hurts them. Especially if the standard was 9/100 even 6/100. 

 

that's not true, i started tech dealing as soon as started, the faster a nation can get to 4999 (the gravy train infa lvl) the faster it can become self sufficient, i manged to get a huge warchest at that size, and since money wont be a problem that nation can concentrate on war wonders instead of eco ones, this will allow an alliance to quickly make a solid mid tier fighting nation with a good set of military wonders and a decent warchest. 

 

look at my nation for example this is my first war, wouldn't you rather have a ton of nations like me fighting for you then a couple of bloated whales sitting on a 20 billion warchest that they never use because they run into peace mode when war starts?

Edited January 29, 2015 by scolar visari

[BringMeTheHorizon]

 

that's not true, i started tech dealing as soon as started, the faster a nation can get to 4999 (the gravy train infa lvl) the faster it can become self sufficient, i manged to get a huge warchest at that size, and since money wont be a problem that nation can concentrate on war wonders instead of eco ones, this will allow an alliance to quickly make a solid mid tier fighting nation with a good set of military wonders and a decent warchest. 

 

look at my nation for example this is my first war, wouldn't you rather have a ton of nations like me fighting for you then a couple of bloated whales sitting on a 20 billion warchest that they never use because they run into peace mode when war starts?

 

 

One nation does not make a trend. Just because it's not true for you doesn't make what I said untrue. You're also a year old, and had time to collect those wonders before being attack, though good for you for not being attacked sooner. Some nations, newer nations, aren't that lucky. Why do you think raiding is so popular on new nations, and nations on the low end NS spectrum? When I first started my nation again, I would raid small end nations all the time that received tech deals. Mostly because they didn't know how to fight, and would spend their money on land, and tech. Which makes a great raid for me. So yes, nations with higher return of money on tech deals does not really help the alliance, it helps that nation if not attacked. 

 

I'd rather have nations at the higher NS level fighting than yours. Because the amount of damage done to high end, the medium end nations out does your medium to low end production in a war. War is about destruction lost, and nations lost that are able to help regrow, or send out aid during the conflict. If we can get a 60k nation to surrender, instead of a 6k nation to surrender, i'd rather have that. I'd actually like to have your type of nations on the opposite side. Nations your size, even with wonders, who grew too fast usually don't have a lot of money, and need to be brought up out of bill lock, or able to keep attacking. So i'd rather the side you were on pump money into you to do little damage. 

[Caustic]

You're ignoring the fact that mid tier nations can't afford 9/100 while still building an adequate warchest. Terrible thread.

[HM Solomon I]

 

This should end the thread right here.

No it shouldn't.  That only works on the open market.  But when you're dealing with internal alliance tech dealing, that is usually not the case.  Many alliances regulate the the rate paid for tech to ensure the alliance overall benefits the most, which makes sense as working towards the common good is in large part the point of alliances.  

For an alliance, the most important factor in tech dealing isn't how much it costs but rather how much tech can the alliance overall move per unit time.  If an alliance uses a higher rate, cash will take up more of its slots thereby reducing the flow of tech.  Everyone loses in this scenario because the alliance will fare worse in war when fighting against alliances that use lower rates and have less ability to defend all of its members.

[scolar visari]

 

 

One nation does not make a trend. Just because it's not true for you doesn't make what I said untrue. You're also a year old, and had time to collect those wonders before being attack, though good for you for not being attacked sooner. Some nations, newer nations, aren't that lucky. Why do you think raiding is so popular on new nations, and nations on the low end NS spectrum? When I first started my nation again, I would raid small end nations all the time that received tech deals. Mostly because they didn't know how to fight, and would spend their money on land, and tech. Which makes a great raid for me. So yes, nations with higher return of money on tech deals does not really help the alliance, it helps that nation if not attacked. 

 

I'd rather have nations at the higher NS level fighting than yours. Because the amount of damage done to high end, the medium end nations out does your medium to low end production in a war. War is about destruction lost, and nations lost that are able to help regrow, or send out aid during the conflict. If we can get a 60k nation to surrender, instead of a 6k nation to surrender, i'd rather have that. I'd actually like to have your type of nations on the opposite side. Nations your size, even with wonders, who grew too fast usually don't have a lot of money, and need to be brought up out of bill lock, or able to keep attacking. So i'd rather the side you were on pump money into you to do little damage. 

 

actually all my war wonders where bought while i was at war, I've spend 175 million while at war getting on the SDI and MHP and still have plenty to keep fighting and rebuild on my own after the war.

 

alliances need to do 9/100 to make their small nations self sufficient so they can rebuild on their own don't have to rely on rebuilding aid and can get right back to selling tech after the war is over

Edited January 29, 2015 by scolar visari

[BringMeTheHorizon]

 

actually all my war wonders where bought while i was at war, I've spend 175 million while at war getting on the SDI and MHP and still have plenty to keep fighting and rebuild on my own after the war.

 

alliances need to do 9/100 to make their small nations self sufficient so they can rebuild on their own don't have to rely on rebuilding aid and can get right back to selling tech after the war is over

 

 

You're missing my point where I said you weren't attacked earlier. Though you can keep intentionally missing all my other points I brought up, as a singular nation only conforming to you, especially when your topic was brought up for all tech sellers. Not just you. 

 

This isn't about you, but all tech sellers. So do you believe that all tech sellers, and new nations will be able to do what you did? If so when all tech sellers reach a sufficient level to maintain their own income, where/when do you buy tech? Because if all sellers are doing this at 9/100 they will all get to a level of where selling tech doesn't make sense to them anymore, and they'll look to buy. Thus leaving only maybe 10-20 new nations a day, 5-8 that actually stick around, and sell tech. It's all about making the game self-sustaining, not just one portion of the game. 

 

Or you can address the numbers that caustic brought up. 

[scolar visari]

 

 

You're missing my point where I said you weren't attacked earlier. Though you can keep intentionally missing all my other points I brought up, as a singular nation only conforming to you, especially when your topic was brought up for all tech sellers. Not just you. 

 

This isn't about you, but all tech sellers. So do you believe that all tech sellers, and new nations will be able to do what you did? If so when all tech sellers reach a sufficient level to maintain their own income, where/when do you buy tech? Because if all sellers are doing this at 9/100 they will all get to a level of where selling tech doesn't make sense to them anymore, and they'll look to buy. Thus leaving only maybe 10-20 new nations a day, 5-8 that actually stick around, and sell tech. It's all about making the game self-sustaining, not just one portion of the game. 

 

Or you can address the numbers that caustic brought up. 

 

like i said since tech deals are far more profitable than before im sure a lot of new nations will stay selling tech for far longer then they need to getting wonders and building a huge war chest like i did. if i was selling tech a 3/150 tech like was the norm long ago, i would want to get the hell out of seller statues as fast as possible too. thats slavery.

 

9mil/100 will keep me selling tech for a long, long time.

 

if your aid slots are used efficiently you will make 1.3 billion a year on top of what you collect yourself. numbers like that will keep sellers around.  

[Devialance]

Well personally I do not care what price others sell their tech for, I sell mine for 9m/100 tech, people buy or they don't.

 

I did have  a stable number of buyers until the war came about and after i am sure i will find the right number of people again.

[kalev60]

One  aid slot of tech against one aid slot of money seems fair. I don't care about the content of slot more than is it the max i can send or receive. I care about whether i have open slots or not.

Edited January 29, 2015 by kalev60

[King William]

Obviously not at the sametime. A larger nation can dump money on a smaller one during a war, or assist in the initial development phase / rebuild. A smaller nation can send tech during peace. It seems fairly straight forward what I'm getting at.

And said in so few words too.

I'm amazed.

[Fox Fire]

especially when warchests are so huge these days, a decent sized nations makes well over 9 mil a day. sending 9 mil every 10 days isn't going to break the bank, considering what it would cost to buy that tech yourself it's a jackpot.

 

i will no longer do 6/100 deals. i hope more tech sellers do the same so we can put pressure on the tech market to increase the price to a more reasonable lvl. we sellers are a scare resource. what happens when a commodity is scarce, it becomes more valuable. we need to use our power to help ourselves!

Nothing you said here even makes any sense....

[Gizmo]

You are looking at tech dealing by a "me" rather than a "we" perspective.......

I can see how you would think that but honestly I'm not. When I re-rolled I sold at 6m/200 tech and grew quite fast. 9m really doesn't sway me one way or another but I think it overvalues tech when 300 tech can be blown away by a single nuke (some more, some less I realize). When I was at MHA we used to have an aid chain (welfare) and 3m/50t deals to aid nation development with an aim of quickly getting nations a Manhattan Project. Nations would grow fast at that rate and still not have the necessary fundamentals to survive. They never appreciated things like TC's and back collecting because they didn't need to as the money would just pour in. The people who bothered to learn the fundamentals and grew slowly on their own without aid tended to be the ones that survived when war came around. The ones who were dependent on aid and lucrative deals just shriveled up and deleted in the first week of war. In most cases you are doing new nations no favor by having them grow too quickly especially with wonder laden low infra nations just laying around to devour them. 9m/200 tech is fair if not generous.

[The Phoenix King]

You're the one #winning, not phoenix king ;)

 

I'm winning a friendship with DBDC and their protection, which, is like, the best thing you can ask for. You know, the top nations in the game?

Edited January 29, 2015 by The Phoenix King