4000 Nukes

[Letum]

Because everyone assumes that merely because I have an opinion on something, that must automatically mean I'm in the anti-DBDC camp. Which would be completely pointless since I had a whole 4-6 nations, total, in their range. 
 
It's pretty much the same thing as when we joined EQ, with everyone knowing fully well we were a mid-tier Alliance, and then -gasp- Sparta, why aren't you fighting a Tier with nations you don't have? 
 
=-\
 
Really, I mean really?
 
Do people just lose all amount of common sense when they click on the OWF to post their crap?

I would have thought that common sense is that if you A) See someone as a threat and B) you lack the tools to deal with it, then the logical thing to do would be to *get* the tools (i.e an upper tier) by economic growth of by diplomacy. 2 years is plenty of time to do either.

[DeathAdder]

Yes. Because in those two years, I certainly wasn't trying to do anything.  :rolleyes:

 

If you really want to debate with me the Politics during and after the EQ and Disorder wars, log onto IRC so we don't have to keep derailing Polar's thread.

[CubaQuerida]

 

Because everyone assumes that merely because I have an opinion on something, that must automatically mean I'm in the anti-DBDC camp.

That sounds like a really boring camp.  Buncha old people talking about what they would have done and could have done and how we ruined the game.  I don't think anyone is naturally starting in the anti-DBDC mindset, it's just that we really don't mind if our actions push people that way.  It's a sacrifice we've been willing to make and we've established our friends/allied base, officially even.  Nothing says two alliiances have to hate each other if they're not allied and nothing says two alliances must necessarily like each other's friends if they are allied.

 

 

Do people just lose all amount of common sense when they click on the OWF to post their crap?

I'm gonna leave this one just hanging out there as a rhetorical exercise because it seems to hold more emphasis than if I just confirmed what everyone already knows about the OWF.

[The Zigur]

And Tywin, it wasn't until reality was staring you in the face that you started writing "essays" about the God Emperor.  The problem is you still don't have any idea what happened or how it happened.  If you did, you'd maybe realize it has absolutely nothing to do with lulzism.

 

I first fought your chaos spawn during Mushqaeda, when you and your lulzist allies targeted a peaceful, neutral alliance. Since that time I have vociferously called for a solution to the renewed lulzist assault on our world, including calling for months for the targeting DBDC tech sellers (and even posting target lists on the OWF) while I was in LoSS early this year. 

 

While you are right that action should have been taken by the world community, it has finally become clear to all who call themselves civilized what kind of threat you have become. And it will take the Order of Ivan and her allies months, maybe years, to contain it.

[DeathAdder]

That sounds like a really boring camp.  Buncha old people talking about what they would have done and could have done and how we ruined the game.  I don't think anyone is naturally starting in the anti-DBDC mindset, it's just that we really don't mind if our actions push people that way.  It's a sacrifice we've been willing to make and we've established our friends/allied base, officially even.  Nothing says two alliiances have to hate each other if they're not allied and nothing says two alliances must necessarily like each other's friends if they are allied.

 

I'm gonna leave this one just hanging out there as a rhetorical exercise because it seems to hold more emphasis than if I just confirmed what everyone already knows about the OWF.

 

Good points.

[Alexio15]

 
I first fought your chaos spawn during Mushqaeda, when you and your lulzist allies targeted a peaceful, neutral alliance. Since that time I have vociferously called for a solution to the renewed lulzist assault on our world, including calling for months for the targeting DBDC tech sellers (and even posting target lists on the OWF) while I was in LoSS early this year. 
 
While you are right that action should have been taken by the world community, it has finally become clear to all who call themselves civilized what kind of threat you have become. And it will take the Order of Ivan and her allies months, maybe years, to contain it.

I think the civilised definition depends what side you are on.

[Sir Kiloist]

I think the civilised definition depends what side you are on.

 

To me the civilized definition is roll Tywin and I think 97-98% of CN agrees with that. I think I may be on to something in terms of a political career  :ehm:

[kerschbs]

I would have thought that common sense is that if you A) See someone as a threat and B) you lack the tools to deal with it, then the logical thing to do would be to *get* the tools (i.e an upper tier) by economic growth of by diplomacy. 2 years is plenty of time to do either.

 

To be fair, growing an upper tier large enough to challenge DBDC isn't something you can just do. It realistically would take a moderate sized alliance closer to 2 years to even begin to have the ability to challenge them, with no global war in between. I don't disagree with your points at politics- the Polar/Aft/TOP sphere (for lack of a better description) made the bed we are in and will have to sleep in it. I don't think much of that is really Sparta's fault, but that's a topic for another day. 

[Orville Reginbacher]

Can we all just agree that it's my fault--I established my nation just this year, and really, it's my fault for not doing something about this and establishing my nation years before...

[partymaster]

wat :/

Oh no, he's awakened! :O

[smurthwaite]

Oh no, he's awakened! :o

 

Smother it with a pillow before it gets away.

[The Zigur]

To me the civilized definition is roll Tywin and I think 97-98% of CN agrees with that. I think I may be on to something in terms of a political career  :ehm:

You're wrong.

[Sir Humphrey]

And what did R&R do? All this finger pointing and passing the buck is ridiculous.

Its everyone's mistake, drop it, carry-on and shut the $%&@ up talking in circles for years about it.

Actually, R&R was prepared to support us during the MQ conflict when NATO/TPF fought DBDC after we countered one of its nations which had declared on Fark. That was the point referred to by Garion at which it was clear the Polar sphere was preoccupied with planning a politically opportunistic war on NPO and its allies rather than confronting a real threat, despite the involvement of a XX member.

I long ago concluded that any claim to "moralist" motives (including those in this thread) are merely a rhetorical device for the masses used to achieve pragmatic political objectives. Our side demonstrated that in EQ, and the Disorder War merely confirmed it. Edited December 4, 2014 by Sir Humphrey

[DeathAdder]

Fark's involvement was extremely limited (wasn't it just that one war?), and from what I recall; they had no desire to expand it into a Bloc Event. Sparta raised our Defcon and prepared accordingly in case it expanded further on Fark, or another of XX, but it never did. That's why Sparta/Polar didn't go in. Not because we were too busy plotting.

 

Try again.

Edited December 4, 2014 by DeathAdder

[Starfox101]

Maybe you guys could change instead of being the same bags of hot air...


The last year you guys were at the top of the game. You had all of Bob at your fingertips... And then you let it slip away.

Perhaps we should go join GPA to rebuild and then we can challenge you.

 

Also near 100% upper tier peace moding (polar/ria are exceptions) doesnt help :/

Okay let's all stop the peace mode arguments here and now. You guys did it last war universally, and some of us are doing it this time around. Guess what - it happens in every war, don't pretend it is a new concept.

 

 

 

Yeah, no I'm not conceeding this point. Sparta has 20 nations over 100k, same as us. The only reason there aren't targets to fight is because your side is too scared to bring them out.

Those same nations who just fought DBDC? And face a massive disadvantage in that tier once all the counters come in?

 

Yeah okay I can see you guys really grasp things well

 

Except for the fact that during last war your coalition had a sizeable upper tier advantage for the first time since XX's inception, probably. Squandered the opportunity to use it, maybe? Or were you denied it?
 

Yet Sparta sat by watching by the sidelines when Mushqaeda happened and DBDC was still somewhat vulnerable/not as well tied or as strong as today. Another wasted opportunity, not just for you obviously: but you were too busy planning the war that led to this current situation. Short-term goals instead of long-term investments.

My point is, don't blame others for your mistakes.

So you expected everyone to play the long-term game only and put off everything to counter a possible DBDC threat? Yes, we all knew it would be a threat. Did everyone expect them to absorb every large nation, and ally every single alliance with a presence in the upper tier? No, we didn't see that coming, who did? At some point you have to give these guys credit, and realize that regardless, they were going to rise. They are a skilled group, and to beat yourself up for losing ground to them is pointless. Oh well, though. Everything happens in the mid-tier, and wars can be won without a top-tier.

 

I'm saddened to see R&R acting as if this is a problem limited to us though. I guess you don't see the long-term game!

 

 

 

In my opinion, it's everyone's mistake, not just that of Sparta/XX. 

 

I also don't recall RnR ever volunteering or trying to take down a threat to pretty much anyone who isn't tied to them. 

The problem is they think it's only our mistake because we're the ones taking the brunt of the hit right now.

 

But I guess they can't play out the scenario of what happens when we no longer have a top tier. Oh well.

 

I have to ask, if you saw them as an upper tier threat at the time, why have you pursued for the last 2 years a strategy completely opposite to what would have been required to deal with such a "threat"? First by signing up for disorder, a war aimed at a mainly mid-tier grouping which (at the time) had little relation to them, and second by managing to alienate key upper tier forces in the run-up to this war so badly rather than building on the (sort of) collaboration of the last war to bring them closer.

It seems a muddled mess that looks as if you were just reacting to events as they happened rather than planning ahead.

So you propose Polar lets NSO/NG (though Polar-NG resolved that one prior) get away with plotting a war against us, to hit an alliance that affects 5 of our nations, who at the time, was a much smaller threat? Yeah, Letum, reality is a tough to swallow sometimes but maybe you should consider that NG/NSO/NPO was a much greater threat to Polar than DBDC ever will be? Besides, that war was fun. Don't worry so much about us.

[Garion]

I'm saddened to see R&R acting as if this is a problem limited to us though. I guess you don't see the long-term game!
 
The problem is they think it's only our mistake because we're the ones taking the brunt of the hit right now.
 
But I guess they can't play out the scenario of what happens when we no longer have a top tier. Oh well.

Ehy, it's the argument you guys offered us. Don't be too hard on me for recycling it.

[Sir Kiloist]

You're wrong.

 

I'm not inclined to trust your opinion you've been wrong several times. 

[Rush Sykes]

I'm just waiting for counters which are bound to come. But keep thinking what you do in regards to my guys in PM.  :popcorn:

 

I personally feel I did make effort post war. The scary part is, Rush actually acknowledged that fact, and is the first time we found ourselves in agreement. Not my fault if some others didn't pull their weight. One can only do so much. Inflate my ego somemore on Sparta finally being so relevant we cause so much to happen, please.

 

You could always tell those who are content to claim a moral high-ground and soak up honor while doing nothing to put their allies in a better position(and remaining silent while tertiary allies make the position even worse) to sod off. I respect and applaud your efforts to try. There had to come a point in the last 3 months though, where you realized that your BFFs did not want to make any effort, and at the point, to be blunt, you should have cut them loose and not tied your fate to theirs. Had they TRIED and you tied your fate to theirs, nobody could fault you. But you remained attached to dead weight even as people were telling you how dead the weight was. That is where you failed, and for the 1st time in Sparta's history, you deserved better than you got, but you did not put yourself 1st, you chose to put the dead weight 1st.

[Sir Humphrey]

Fark's involvement was extremely limited (wasn't it just that one war?), and from what I recall; they had no desire to expand it into a Bloc Event. Sparta raised our Defcon and prepared accordingly in case it expanded further on Fark, or another of XX, but it never did. That's why Sparta/Polar didn't go in. Not because we were too busy plotting.
 
Try again.

My point was that the Polar sphere could have used the resources and political capital available to it at the time to confront the threat, but it made a (presumably pragmatic) decision to pursue other objectives and no longer has the same resources or political capital now the cycle has turned. That was/is not a value judgment, it is a statement of fact which reflects a ranking of priorities for the sphere. But it is a little disingenuous for some posters to now attempt to guilt alliances such as R&R for a perceived lack of action with regard to DBDC simply because the threat has become much more immediate for Polar.

[Starfox101]

 

You could always tell those who are content to claim a moral high-ground and soak up honor while doing nothing to put their allies in a better position(and remaining silent while tertiary allies make the position even worse) to sod off. I respect and applaud your efforts to try. There had to come a point in the last 3 months though, where you realized that your BFFs did not want to make any effort, and at the point, to be blunt, you should have cut them loose and not tied your fate to theirs. Had they TRIED and you tied your fate to theirs, nobody could fault you. But you remained attached to dead weight even as people were telling you how dead the weight was. That is where you failed, and for the 1st time in Sparta's history, you deserved better than you got, but you did not put yourself 1st, you chose to put the dead weight 1st.

Honestly, you have to see the irony here. You've consistently put TLR's well being behind that of your allies you've remained overly loyal to throughout the years.

 

 

 

My point was that the Polar sphere could have used the resources and political capital available to it at the time to confront the threat, but it made a (presumably pragmatic) decision to pursue other objectives and no longer has the same resources or political capital now the cycle has turned. That was/is not a value judgment, it is a statement of fact which reflects a ranking of priorities for the sphere. But it is a little disingenuous for some posters to now attempt to guilt alliances such as R&R for a perceived lack of action with regard to DBDC simply because the threat has become much more immediate for Polar.

I don't know how many times this will need to be said, but the issue will not be Polar's very soon.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Starfox101

[Prodigal Moon]

This has to be the first war where the key targets getting rolled have to hear not just about whatever grievance initiated the attack, and not just about not defending their allies quick enough for the likes of their attackers, but also about not calling in additional allies like they should, and about how they should've signed more treaties with the coalition now attacking them in order to prevent this war.

[WarriorSoul]

For the record, R&R and DBDC have collided before, during the whole MQ blowup, if I recall correctly. Why don't you ask FC and a few others how that turned out for them. :|

[Starfox101]

This has to be the first war where the key targets getting rolled have to hear not just about whatever grievance initiated the attack, and not just about not defending their allies quick enough for the likes of their attackers, but also about not calling in additional allies like they should, and about how they should've signed more treaties with the coalition now attacking them in order to prevent this war.

Eternal second fiddles telling us how to do it

 

Right we'll get right on it

[partymaster]

For the record, R&R and DBDC have collided before, during the whole MQ blowup, if I recall correctly. Why don't you ask FC and a few others how that turned out for them. :|

 

It wasn't pretty for anyone. :frantic:

 

The nation of partycity fervently enters the battle purely to reduce the overwhelming population of bordering nations! The ruler of partycity has gone on record to stating: "Finally a place where slaughter and weapons are useful! No more dungeons and torture chambers for me (until the next peace cycle) :D"

[The Zigur]

War is always better than repression.