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Discussing the Point System


Evangeline Anovilis

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I never made the implication that it had to be armed to be of use or consequential in combat. And yes, I have heard of maneuver warfare, thank you very much.

 

Obviously common sense is not worth much to some people, but I hope that we as people and players can agree on some sort of standard. Having enough trucks to haul around 1.5 million mooks with a rifle shouldn't be possible. But if you want to have only enough trucks to haul around one mook with a rifle and his five buddies, that's your choice. There's a line somewhere in the middle that's a sweet spot, and I advocate leaving it up to the players to decide where that line is. GMs get involved if it's clearly over the line or stupid, like having enough for 1.5 million mooks with a rifle.

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[Spoiler]sk_copy.jpg
 
Cavalry was still certainly a thing in WWII.


The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit for the day, and the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards unopposed. Also, it took the Germans several hours to reorganise and continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour shown in this combat.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield, together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German tanks that had arrived at the place after the battle. One of the Italian correspondents, Indro Montanelli, sent home an article, in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was used by German propaganda during the war. German propaganda magazine Die Wehrmacht reported on 13 September that the Poles had gravely underestimated German weapons, as Polish propaganda had suggested that German armored vehicles were only covered with sheet metal, leading to a grotesque attack. After the end of World War II it was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of pre-war Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers. As late as the 1990s, this myth was still taught in history classes in the American high schools and colleges.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
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So, here are my proposed changes to the current system.

 

Army: Each point invested in the Army category results in gaining Corps of 45,000 soldiers, a Field Artillery Corps of 16,000 personnel and 280 guns each, an Armoured Corps of 320 light tanks (less than 20 tons), or 180 heavy tanks (between 20 and 75 tons) each, or a Mechanized Division of 15,000 infantry and vehicles.

 

Air Force: Each point invested in the Air Force category results in gaining one Combat Wing, consisting of twelve squadrons of either 24 fighters, or 12 bombers each.

 

Navy: Each point invested in the Navy category results in gaining access to a squadron of destroyers, two squadrons of frigates, or a squadron of submarines, with each squadron consisting of ten ships. Two points invested results in gaining access to a squadron of cruisers, two battleships, or two battlecruisers. Three points invested results in gaining an aircraft carrier and all attendant aircraft.

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What is a seaplane tender (I'd doubt you'd give it full carrier value) and are seaplanes included with ships?

I'm not familiar with what this is, sorry. But any ship that carries aircraft, comes with aircraft. Just like mechanized units come with personnel and ammo and whatnot, and infantry come with logistics, etc. All units purchased are assumed to come with all secondary systems, units, and resources necessary for operation.

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A seaplane tender is a ship that carries greater amounts of seaplanes for launch and recovery. Seaplanes are aircraft either of the floatplane or the flying boat type, which can take off and land on water. The seaplane tender precedes the carrier as platform for naval aviation, but given that floatplanes normally make rather poor fighters and bombers, compared to conventional carrier aircraft, they are often filling in for recon.

 

Many larger ships of the time also carried one to four seaplanes with them. Later in WWII, older surface combattants would at times get remodelled to carry larger amounts of seaplanes, like the Mogami-class cruisers and the Ise-class battleships.

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Useless? Let's take a look at that using my nation as an example, because yolo, dammit.

 

Between Army/Navy/Air Force I spent my points like so: 13/25/12

 

That breaks down further (modifying a few numbers here because its necessary)

 

Army

8 Infantry corps (45k x 8 = 360,000 soldiers)

1 mechanized corps (375,000 total)

1 light armor corps (320 tanks)

1 heavy armor corps (180 tanks, 500 total)

2 artillery corps (16,000 x 2 = 32,000 plus 560 guns)

 

Navy

3 points for one carrier + attendant craft (number of planes changes based on carrier)

4 points for two each of battleships and battlecruisers (5 naval ships total)

8 points spent for 8 destroyer squadrons (85 total ships)

8 points spent for 16 frigate squadrons (245 total ships)

and finally, 2 more points for a squadron of cruisers (255 total ships)

 

Air Force

I split my air force more towards bombers, so 7 bomber wings and 5 fighter wings, which gives us:

Bombers: 84

Fighters: 120

 

This looks like a fairly good breakdown of forces, if you ask me.

Edited by Markus Wilding
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Useless? Let's take a look at that using my nation as an example,


This seems adequate to me, but the fact that you've gone 13/25/12 is telling. That said, your navy is gigantic and you skimped on your ground and air forces, so it looks pretty balanced to me. I'd say either of the suggestions right now would work adequately enough, and honestly, I kinda just want something in place so we can RP.
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With my new proposal, but staying with 80 points, you could put 20 points into each military branch, 4 into tech, and 16 into industry and have the following (not suggesting you actually build your military like this, but using it to show numbers).

 

Army: 20 corps of 45k each results in 900,000 soldiers.

Air Force: 20 Wings of 12 squadrons results in 5,760 fighters, or 2,880 bombers.

Navy: 20 squadrons of destroyers results in 200 destroyers, 400 frigates, 100 cruisers, 10 battleships, or 6 aircraft carriers.

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This seems adequate to me, but the fact that you've gone 13/25/12 is telling. That said, your navy is gigantic and you skimped on your ground and air forces, so it looks pretty balanced to me. I'd say either of the suggestions right now would work adequately enough, and honestly, I kinda just want something in place so we can RP.

 

Precisely. I can easily drop the carrier or pair of battleships and a frigate/destroyer squadron, and that opens up 3 points to spend in the army or air force, either of which would have monumental impacts on either of those branches. Navy suffers slightly, but honestly that's the price I pay for maintaining what I perceive to be an important branch of my military. Does this focus on navy put me at a disadvantage? Of course. But I'm confident that the tactics, training, and strategy of Ottoman ground forces will balance that out.

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I'd welcome input from someone with more naval knowledge than me, for this, but I'd put them individually (dedicated tenders) at one point. Granted, I'm assuming they carry a similar number to normal carriers.

 

Varies. There are seaplane tenders for only a handful seaplanes, some for up to like 30. Carriers range from 30 or so to a few times that. Kaga for example carried over 70 aircraft.

 

As a note, since I forgot to include it, I'd prefer a small increase to 100 points for nations to start with.

I'd advocate it too with this system.

 

Useless? Let's take a look at that using my nation as an example, because yolo, dammit.

 

Between Army/Navy/Air Force I spent my points like so: 13/25/12

 

That breaks down further (modifying a few numbers here because its necessary)

 

Army

8 Infantry corps (45k x 8 = 360,000 soldiers)

1 mechanized corps (375,000 total)

1 light armor corps (320 tanks)

1 heavy armor corps (180 tanks, 500 total)

2 artillery corps (16,000 x 2 = 32,000 plus 560 guns)

 

Navy

3 points for one carrier + attendant craft (number of planes changes based on carrier)

4 points for two each of battleships and battlecruisers (5 naval ships total)

8 points spent for 8 destroyer squadrons (85 total ships)

8 points spent for 16 frigate squadrons (245 total ships)

and finally, 2 more points for a squadron of cruisers (255 total ships)

 

Air Force

I split my air force more towards bombers, so 7 bomber wings and 5 fighter wings, which gives us:

Bombers: 84

Fighters: 120

 

This looks like a fairly good breakdown of forces, if you ask me.

 

Army is thoroughly lacking in firepower, airforce is a joke. Navy is large, but your army is not even going to win WWI style actions.

 

With my new proposal, but staying with 80 points, you could put 20 points into each military branch, 4 into tech, and 16 into industry and have the following (not suggesting you actually build your military like this, but using it to show numbers).

 

Army: 20 corps of 45k each results in 900,000 soldiers.

Air Force: 20 Wings of 12 squadrons results in 5,760 fighters, or 2,880 bombers.

Navy: 20 squadrons of destroyers results in 200 destroyers, 400 frigates, 100 cruisers, 10 battleships, or 6 aircraft carriers.

With emphasis on the "or". You'll need mixtures, most likely. And 900,000 soldiers without adequate support are goners.

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With 100 points:

  • 15 for infantry+15 for artillery (915,000 soldiers+4,200 guns of all calibers)
  • 12 for tanks (3840 tanks below 20 tons)
  • 5 for fighters (1440 fighters)
  • 5 for bombers (720 bombers)
  • 28 for navy (one carrier, 8 battleships, 20 cruisers, 50 destroyers, 80 submarines)
  • 4 for tech
  • 16 for industry.

For anyone who wondered what the French forces would look like. Could shift forces from tanks and infantry to artillery though.

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Precisely. I can easily drop the carrier or pair of battleships and a frigate/destroyer squadron, and that opens up 3 points to spend in the army or air force, either of which would have monumental impacts on either of those branches. Navy suffers slightly, but honestly that's the price I pay for maintaining what I perceive to be an important branch of my military. Does this focus on navy put me at a disadvantage? Of course. But I'm confident that the tactics, training, and strategy of Ottoman ground forces will balance that out.

In a world where everything is equal so is that.

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My proposal in its final form.

 

Every nation has a basis of 800 points to spend at the start.

 

30 points per tech year. With no points spent, it is at 1935. It can be raised to 1940.

 

1 point for 10,000 soldiers.

 

1 point per 300 artillery pieces/150 tankettes or armoured cars (up to 5 tons)/100 light ARVs (5-20 tons)/50 medium ARVs (20-50 tons)/25 heavy ARVs (50-75 tons)/10 super-heavy ARVs (75+ tons)

 

1 point per 100 aircraft.

 

Navy-wise:

 

1 point per 2 destroyers

 

1 point per cruiser

 

3 points per battlecruiser

 

5 points per battleship

 

10 points per carrier

 

2 points per seaplane tender

 

1 point per 3 submarines

 

Carrier aircraft/seaplanes come with their ships.

 

Points can also be spent on industry. Industry allows a weekly replenishment of lost points in other categories at a rate of the full industrial score in peacetime and half the industrial score in wartime. The following ships need industrial investment over multiple weeks: Destroyers need 2 weeks for recovery, cruisers need 4 weeks, capital ships need 6 weeks. GMs can deny replenishment, if not enough IC time has passed to justify a replenishment.

 

Unarmed and unarmoured vehicles and horses are free, but need to be kept within reason.

 

Factbooks need to be kept, to list the point distribution of a nation.

 

Included the differentiation of tank tonnage classes (ARV for Armoured Fighting Vehicles. If you use a StuG, it's technically not a tank, but an assault gun, but it should count as an ARV of intermediate weight class, not as artillery piece). Took out trucks and half-tracks.

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