Espionage System Overhal

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Primary Draft:
 

In recognition of the following items:
 
1. Posting doesn't necessitate quality.
2. Posting doesn't necessitate authority.
3. Posting a lot can be bureaucratic and cumbersome.
4. No system that relies on a qualitative or quantitative interpretation of a party included in that system will be unbiased.
5. Math is always unbiased.
6. The game is based on CNRP.
7. We already have an IG espionage system that works..
8. Abuse needs mitigated.
 
I propose the following.
 
Post restrictions on espionage are to be lifted in the understanding that all nations with a CIA wonder and Intelligence Academies have operatives throughout the globe, potentially in every nation. These operatives may be activated and used at their discretion IF....
 
1. They are successful in spy rolls against the target country.
2. The target country fails a counter-espionage attempt to either intercept, kill, or arrest the spies.
 
The objective of the mission must be defined in the roll request. There must be at least one post for each set of rolls describing the outcome and how the intelligence agency involved participated in the event.
 
Abuse prevention: 1 incident or event may be participated in by each nation per 24 hour real time period.
 
Magnitudes of success:
 
1 successes = Partial success, Spy achieves objective, but is caught.
2.successes = Total success, Spy achieves objectives and is not caught.
 
Countering successes:
 
1 Counter success = Total success reduced to partial, partial reduced to failure.
2 Counter succcesses = Total success reduced to failure, partial success reduced to catastrophic failure.
 
Interpretation of magnitudes of success and failure:
 
Total failure = Spy is captured or killed, at target's preference. Target may gain intelligence information on sender of the spy and kill or capture additional spies in their territory. May also learn perpetrator's objective. Target determines entire outcome.
Failure = Spy is captured or killed (Target determined), only nation of origin can be gained by the target.
Partial success = Spy is captured or killed (Perpetrator determined), nation of origin cannot be determined. Objective succeeds, perpetrator may rp out limited mission success.
Total success = Spy lives. All mission objectives complete. Perpetrator determines entire outcome within context of defined espionage attempt as stated in the roll request.
 
Failures on counters add to success counts. All perpetrator side rolls are made against the target's defense. All target rolls are made against the perpetrator's defense as those are the areas the espionage event is occurring in.
 
Each espionage attempt would be treated as an "Event" or "incident" all interested parties including allies may attempt to support or thwart the effort with a maximum result of total success or total failure, no exceeding the limitations of the parameters. Perpetrators would be those supporting the espionage attempt. Targets would be those countering the event. Due to this, espionage wars are also far more interactive.. rely more on working with other nations intelligence agencies, and therefore enhances the rp.

Open suggestions to improvement and balancing. Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lynneth]

No, no, and no. I do not agree with this system. Nobody gets spies everywhere or [i]any[/i]where just because they have a wonder ingame. Math is only unbiased if it's used honestly. It can easily be made biased.

 

Though the success magnitudes are interesting. But those favour nations that are larger, more established IG way too hard. Is there anyone in this RP who can get 70% odds on me? Is there anyone who I don't get at least 50% odds on? (Spoilers: The answer is no to both.)

 

The current system (ie the one taken over from RP1) is fine, though the GMs do have to write it down for me to put into the map thread.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Do you have any suggestions other than nay saying as to re-balance the system above? My objective here is simply to minimize ruling bias and give a much more structured and even approach to the rp that makes the use of espionage more appealing and less of a mess. If everyone knows the rules this way there is no need for massive post counts and the outcomes are more constrained. Unfortunately, Lynneth, the current system favors you and I can't take you as an unbiased source given you are a post monster. (A good and a bad thing. I do like your rp. I like your depth, wish I had the time for it.)

What if we weighted the rolls in some fashion as to make the distribution between success/fail between smaller and larger states more even, perhaps based on ns in some fashion? This is a particularly difficult one to obtain a mathematical balance on because ns does not necessarily directly correlate to IG espionage capability.

What if we allowed the smaller states, rather than to do their own distinct roles.. sum their percentages? Say for example, 3 seato members attempted to spy you, and they had 20, 20, and 30% respectfully against you. That'd give them 70% spy odds if they worked together. Just an example of things to think about.

There is no pretense at distortion of the honesty of mathematics here, while we try to keep a relatively even playing field the game is still based on CN and finding the balance is the challenge to making the experience enjoyable to all. Post count shouldn't even factor in. Whether I post 1 post or 1 million I should still be able to use my spies.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lynneth]

My suggestion is not to use this system because I believe it to be inferior to the one we're using, and more biased towards large nations than the current one already is.

Replacing something flawed with something even more flawed is not a good decision. Also, the volume or quality of my posts is entirely irrelevant to how well the system works at the moment, despite what you believe. A sentence or two of initiating attempts to recruit sleeper agents to bring into, say, Persia, another two sentences of preparing the operation, then a spyroll or two to insert them unseen and bam, I can RP them getting in if I succeed. That's a grand total of 3 posts and maybe of the same total length as this very post I'm writing right now.

 

Isn't that amazing?

Edited August 16, 2014 by Lynneth

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Yes, it is.. it's also garbage clutter posting. Semantics based and unnecessary for the same objective. Explain to me how it benefits the rp. Explain to me how it is any better than me posting 1 single post in paragraph format with that same content that details the same actions in conjunction with a spy roll. You state there is a passage of time between each post.. well I say there can be within posts as well.

Please get back on topic of ways to improve the system I have proposed so that it might possibly be considered for utilization, rather than demeaning it if you are against it. Your intent is clear. It is also seriously, logically, flawed.

By the way, under this system, you would be able to protect your allies.. including Mogar, but I bet you didn't read that far before smashing it.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Lynneth]

How is actually inserting agents into a nation unnecessary? How is making worthwhile Roleplay 'garbage clutter'? You can't just assume that you have people in someone else's nation, that undermines in totality a player's ability to RP their nation as they wish. It subverts their ability to dictate the circumstances of how they engage others within their nation. It ignores previously done RP by the player, whether they have fully open borders or utterly closed ones, how they have RPd their society's views on foreigners, etcetera.

[Mogar]

If my intelligence agencies required Tikal's assistance.... I'd ask his intelligence agencies ICly, which is entirely reasonable for anyone to do.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

How is actually inserting agents into a nation unnecessary? How is making worthwhile Roleplay 'garbage clutter'? You can't just assume that you have people in someone else's nation, that undermines in totality a player's ability to RP their nation as they wish. It subverts their ability to dictate the circumstances of how they engage others within their nation. It ignores previously done RP by the player, whether they have fully open borders or utterly closed ones, how they have RPd their society's views on foreigners, etcetera.

I don't care how tight you think your borders are.. how tight you play your society.. spies get in. See WW2, germany. See North Korea.. see any real actual.. nation.. you know.. not a fantasy utopia. <-I can't believe I'm having to use this line on someone else. Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Uberstein]

Cry more Mael. Your tears are hilarious.

 

The current system is fine, I fully oppose your proposal. Oddly enough you've created a situation in which I agree with Lynneth, so congratulations on that.

[Centurius]

Get into my borders and even the upper echelons of my government without some damn good prior rp? No fucking way.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

You're all (those posting thus far) cowards with no useful input. I'd be open to the same vulnerability and not the slightest afraid to have to deal with it. Especially if it were slightly adjusted to help smaller states. I guess we can let the system remain broken and mostly useless except for in key pre-negotiated situations. Or to the wall posters. Uber you'd be on any side to be against me so it's hardly remarkable.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

This is a roleplay based on cybernations, if you want game mechanics go play the game. I don't care you're opening yourself up to the same vulnerability, it will just be another element where a number game trumps story writing.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Except the story writing gets screwed up when it gets competitive because of the arbitrary nature of rules and the lack of a definitive system and so it ends up screwed up anyway.

 

Try again.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Voodoo Nova]

The current system is good, as is. I don't see the need to change the current, simple, system into this system.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Try using it a few times.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

*scuttles the boat* I give up.. *salutes as he goes down with the ship*.

[Hereno]

I like the idea of divorcing the RP more from our CN stats, and I also like the idea of partial successes and failures. Perhaps you could use that as a basis to rework things?

[Beauty]

I like this a lot actually. A very original idea and realistic based on the wonders.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

I like the idea of divorcing the RP more from our CN stats, and I also like the idea of partial successes and failures. Perhaps you could use that as a basis to rework things?

 

I'll give it another try later after some sleep. Assuming this blister I seem to have developed on my ear lets me.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Maelstrom Vortex

[PresidentDavid]

Well all the crazy people are on board.