Faraway's Future

[Hereno]

Tl;dr - don't disagree with people on OOC matters unless you want them to "punish" you in the RP.

No, this is exactly the problem. Just because I think someone is doing something stupid OOC doesn't mean I'm not going to try to ally them if I think my nation would. Nor does someone being my friend mean I won't kick their ass IC or OOC. I think what is right what I think is right, and if people are too thin-skinned to be able to handle criticism or, heaven forbid, someone on the internet not getting along with them, maybe they need to spend less time with their noses in spreadsheets and more time experiencing the ups and downs of life. It's pathetic when there's no need for me to even bother trying to be nice to certain nations because they hold it against me that I think a certain way. I've thought several times about sending diplomats to Romania (and others, for that mat ter), but why even bother when I know there's zero chance of anything fruitful? It isn't even that I mean it as a slander to say it, because I understand completely where it's coming from and everybody is guilty of it to some degree. At the end of the day, of course you're not going to kill off people you know you can trust. But acting like an unfortunate but ever-present reality is somehow a good thing that should be encouraged is madness. Mixing IC and OOC is what causes drama, and it should be our first priority to limit it as much as possible.

[Mogar]

I was typing up a reply, but that's about the same thing I was going to say. Kevin and I currently are technically at war, I could have made a war post and kept marching my army across Siberia into Kevin's nation simply because I have a major statistical advantage against him, Did I? Nope, but even if I did, would that have any bearing on how I talk to Kevin OOCly? not in the slightest.

 

And If I'm disliked OOCly because I am the only person to tell Tricent to their faces they are the reason the CNRP1 is dead, then so be it, I'd rather be hated for being honest than liked for being a liar, or worse, a suck up.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Mogar

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Tl;dr - don't disagree with people on OOC matters unless you want them to "punish" you in the RP.

No, this is exactly the problem. Just because I think someone is doing something stupid OOC doesn't mean I'm not going to try to ally them if I think my nation would. Nor does someone being my friend mean I won't kick their ass IC or OOC. I think what is right what I think is right, and if people are too thin-skinned to be able to handle criticism or, heaven forbid, someone on the internet not getting along with them, maybe they need to spend less time with their noses in spreadsheets and more time experiencing the ups and downs of life. It's pathetic when there's no need for me to even bother trying to be nice to certain nations because they hold it against me that I think a certain way. I've thought several times about sending diplomats to Romania (and others, for that mat ter), but why even bother when I know there's zero chance of anything fruitful? It isn't even that I mean it as a slander to say it, because I understand completely where it's coming from and everybody is guilty of it to some degree. At the end of the day, of course you're not going to kill off people you know you can trust. But acting like an unfortunate but ever-present reality is somehow a good thing that should be encouraged is madness. Mixing IC and OOC is what causes drama, and it should be our first priority to limit it as much as possible.

Some people disagree OOCly or ICly (or both, because most often, both sides adopt their IC narratives as rightful and will just think the other party is ignorant and antagonistic). Some people conduct themselves well and will get to be acknowledged as mature people able to get points across without being unecessarily abrassive. Some resort to less sophisticated argumentation and more rude wording, generally managing to lose support of a community who won't care about them anymore. If you lose community support, you'll become an acceptable target. In CNRP, this may end your existence, when one person decides they attack you for whatever reason. Because ICly, noone has a reason to support you and OOCly, noone can be bothered. And to be friendly, because this is an RP is a clear OOC motivation, not IC politics. If you want no intertwined IC/OOC at all, then you'd not at all care about whether it is good for the story or good for your personal image, because these aspects are settled on the OOC-meta-level. ICly, there is no story or RP. Now, I'm not going to say that it is wrong to not roll people, just out of respect for their story, but then you a. should not complain about my IC/OOC mixing, b. give me reason to disrespect you. Mogar did not get rolled for being an asshat OOCly. He got rolled because noone could be bothered to move ICly, out of an OOC intention to safe him, because ICly, he's a country noone cares about. Mogar did not need to piss off Triyun to the point Triyun took action and mixed IC and OOC. He only needed to piss off Triyun enough so that Triyun decided to not mix IC and OOC and save Mogar from Vektor. Until Vektor used nukes, which got him actual UN sanctions, but by then, Mogar rerolled. In essence, Mogar did not get punished for being an idiot OOC, he just did not get rewarded due to it. Because Triyun did not attack him. He just did not protect him.

 

If you want to have people protect you out of respect or keep them from pursuing a hostile agenda out of respect, don't give them reason to just dislike you. And to me, this is a pretty reasonable matter, because if you want OOC positive feelings to influence the RP, don't waste other's positive feelings for you.

 

Also, I totally don't get why you think I'd treat you any different than other people due to OOC. Just like Mogar you seem to think I've got some hatred towards you that will make me be hostile towards you and be pointlessly aggressive. Just, Mogar at least has one post of mine to work with, I made no posts adressing Milan yet. In both cases however, I fail to see how anyone could think OOC sentiment spills over into IC treatment. Mogar got his meeting and you would get yours too. and just like with everyone, I'll conclude treaties on the basis of usefulness and not just on whom I like. For example, Horo is an obvious person I'm OOC friendly with. Am I giving him favourable treatment? Well, I got a NAP and cooperation agreement. Surely, there must be some bias. Well, there isn't. Horo's agenda and mine are not the same, yet they are not polar opposites, so we agreed to not be hostile and to work on the matters we can agree on and not be idiots on matters we cannot agree on. There is no alliance, because neither of us gains from the other much. There is no war, because neither of us gains from this either. Could there be an alliance or war in the future. Sure. But it'll need a change in the political map. Would Horo attack, say, Belarus, I'm not going to sell Belarus out. Now, a Milanese diplomat will most likely not get far, but this is an IC issue, not an OOC one and it is pretty obvious ICly.

 

I was typing up a reply, but that's about the same thing I was going to say. Kevin and I currently are technically at war, I could have made a war post and kept marching my army across Siberia into Kevin's nation simply because I have a major statistical advantage against him, Did I? Nope, but even if I did, would that have any bearing on how I talk to Kevin OOCly? not in the slightest.

Does this have anything to do with the topic at hand? No. Does this have anything to do with the OP? No. We are discussing OOC influence on IC, yet you seemingly bring up IC influence on OOC. I fail to see how this has any bearing on the debate. If you want to just point out that you were able to be nice, good for you. Doesn't change my opinion of your character, after how your conflict with me over Taiwan changed very much how you treated me OOCly.

[Hereno]

Also, I totally don't get why you think I'd treat you any different than other people due to OOC.

Now, a Milanese diplomat will most likely not get far.

lel

Sorry, but I'm just never going to agree that it's appropriate to use this game as a proxy for OOC vendettas. Especially when they're based in the OOC aspect of the game itself. You can play however you like, and it wasn't my intention to imply anything about Horo, but you know I make a damn good point.

And yeah I still think you should concentrate on Romania - CNRP2's Europe is the most active RP on the forums. If you want action, it's the best place to be. (Null vote)

[Justinian the Mighty]

I can't control what Mogar or Hereno do. Go !@#$%* at them if you want them to stop pointing out the flaws in your game.
 
I only hopped in this thread cause I was bored and found Eva's argument of "Keep quiet and you'll be fine" (at least that was my interpretation of it) to be absurd and similar to the abusive relationships I have dealt with in reality.
 
And I've got plenty of nerve, lol. It's CNRP. The amount of respect I have for the people here, if quantified in some form, would struggle to fill a thimble. Oh no I insulted somebody's honor by saying their arguments were poor, whatever will I do?

I hope to be as cool as you are someday.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

And If I'm disliked OOCly because I am the only person to tell Tricent to their faces they are the reason the CNRP1 is dead, then so be it, I'd rather be hated for being honest than liked for being a liar, or worse, a suck up.

I tell Triyun to stop being a dick all the time. The reason people don't like you OOC is because you're a very dislikable person OOC.

[Triyun]

Reasons to ally people vary from player to player.  I ally competence and reliability, not geography.  Others focus on geography and a sense of regional cohesion.  Others do it based on who they get along with most.  None is right or wrong, and yes it does reflect both IC and OOC in that people are effected by their OOC beliefs into what they RP IC.  PD is probably never going to RP a perfect commie utopia, because PD doesn't believe such a thing can exist, because he firmly believes in market economies and the importance of religion in promoting virtues and morals in society.  I'm never going to RP a hippie commune because as a believer in moral libralism but an IR realist with a firm belief in an anarchic world filled with opportunists, I believe that creates more problems for a society than it solves and would harm the ideals I hold most dear.  That's just the way things are.  You can't attach a judgement of the rightness or wrongness of the player for doing that.  

 

Now that's not to say I firmly believe we can use econometrics to show some people (*cough* commies and libertarians *cough*) are full of shit, but nobody wants to base their RP actions on statistical analysis of social science papers I'm guessing.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Sorry, but I'm just never going to agree that it's appropriate to use this game as a proxy for OOC vendettas. Especially when they're based in the OOC aspect of the game itself. You can play however you like, and it wasn't my intention to imply anything about Horo, but you know I make a damn good point.

I personally would like to keep OOC and IC apart. Not going to happen. Not an excuse, but an acknowledgement. People will RP with people they see as friendly, while not wanting to deal with people they see as annoying. In that case, it'd be good to limit it to positive OOC influence and try to keep out negative ones. However, in the example given, that is, Mogar getting rolled by Vektor, it was the lack of OOC-based intervention that Mogar criticised and called a Vendetta. And you may think Triyun evil, but there's a certain difference between Triyun kicking Mogar for being OOC annoying and Triyun not helping Mogar, because he's OOC annoying (and IC there's no reason to).

 

And in regards to Romania, you don't make a point. If you want to say sending a diplomat to Bucharest is pointless, it's quite accurate. If you think it is pointless to send a diplomat to Bucharest due to hard OOC feelings on my part, that's not at all accurate. When I stated that I'd think it pointless to have you visit me, it was more an acknowledgement of the IC realities surrounding our foreign relations. If you look at Milan's foreign relations and look at Bucharest's, any diplomatic visit that is aiming for good relations is utopian. If I were you, the sole reason to ever bother at the current time to pay a visit to Romania would be for an attempt at multilateral solutions regarding Europe. Whether that works out though is questionable too, given the last multilateral approach, the EC failed horribly. So, I do not see a reason to "lel", unless you can tell me how I'm letting any OOC grudge (Which would be about what anyway?) influence Italo-Romanian relations.

[Zoot Zoot]

This is boring and terrible to read with a hangover.

[Uberstein]

This is boring and terrible to read with a hangover.

You should drink more water while drinking. Sadly I can't do anything about the thread.

[Hereno]

I personally would like to keep OOC and IC apart. Not going to happen. Not an excuse, but an acknowledgement. People will RP with people they see as friendly, while not wanting to deal with people they see as annoying. In that case, it'd be good to limit it to positive OOC influence and try to keep out negative ones. However, in the example given, that is, Mogar getting rolled by Vektor, it was the lack of OOC-based intervention that Mogar criticised and called a Vendetta. And you may think Triyun evil, but there's a certain difference between Triyun kicking Mogar for being OOC annoying and Triyun not helping Mogar, because he's OOC annoying (and IC there's no reason to).
 
And in regards to Romania, you don't make a point. If you want to say sending a diplomat to Bucharest is pointless, it's quite accurate. If you think it is pointless to send a diplomat to Bucharest due to hard OOC feelings on my part, that's not at all accurate. When I stated that I'd think it pointless to have you visit me, it was more an acknowledgement of the IC realities surrounding our foreign relations. If you look at Milan's foreign relations and look at Bucharest's, any diplomatic visit that is aiming for good relations is utopian. If I were you, the sole reason to ever bother at the current time to pay a visit to Romania would be for an attempt at multilateral solutions regarding Europe. Whether that works out though is questionable too, given the last multilateral approach, the EC failed horribly. So, I do not see a reason to "lel", unless you can tell me how I'm letting any OOC grudge (Which would be about what anyway?) influence Italo-Romanian relations.

Our IC paths are only incompatible because they have been shaped by OOC relations, and you know this. It is not a coincidence.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

Our IC paths are only incompatible because they have been shaped by OOC relations, and you know this. It is not a coincidence.

This is about as simplistic as saying Austria fought the Ottomans because Austria being a good Catholic nation and the Ottomans being heathens. Austro-Ottoman rivalry revolved around domination in Hungary and the Balkans. And that you won't get treated friendly by me is because any treaty ranked NAP or higher with you compromises my ability to commit to my existing allies, while not providing anything meaningful in return. This is an IC logic and you hopefully are intelligent enough to understand it.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Hereno]

any treaty ranked NAP or higher with you compromises my ability to commit to my existing allies

:rolleyes:

Yeah, that's what I said.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

You are failing to make sense. Hardly surprising though, given you somehow also think I'm basing my decisions on OOC feelings.

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

And here I was thinking that entering agreements that screwed up your existing ones was bad! I have a lot to learn.

[Hereno]

At this point I think you're both just being intentionally obtuse. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into another one of these threads. Damn this RP.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Hereno

[Horo the Wise Wolf]

I like to think that I'm acute guy.

[Evangeline Anovilis]

At this point I think you're both just being intentionally obtuse. I can't believe I let myself get sucked into another one of these threads. Damn this RP.

No, you are just accusing me of making OOC-based decisions, either because you fail to see the reason behind my foreign policy or because you like to throw around dirt. Either isn't really a positive character trait. So, either you bring up something substantial or you stop it, because I shouldn't have to deal with unfounded accussations like this.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Evangeline Anovilis

[Hereno]

No, you are just accusing me of making OOC-based decisions, either because you fail to see the reason behind my foreign policy or because you like to throw around dirt. Either isn't really a positive character trait. So, either you bring up something substantial or you stop it, because I shouldn't have to deal with unfounded accussations like this.

Fair enough. I'm out.

[Generalissimo]

My sole other neighbour is Bear Islands' Nation of the Bear, 

A fine neighbor indeed,

Sole neighbor is best neighbor.

 

which has the geopolitical relevance of Liechtenstein and otherwise, all's quiet.

I'm honored to equal a glorious Liechtenstein dynasty in overall geopolitical relevance.

 

especially if the rest of the continent is a giant black US and some crazy Eastern Canada (and Bear Islands' Nation of the Bear).

Just happy that Evangeline Anovilis can remember my nation exists!