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Protectorates: An Appeal For Change


Margrave

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Hello everyone. I am posting this topic today to put forth to the community that the time for protectorates as a literary and gaming device in CNRP has come to an end.

 

Protectorates are essentially devices used to keep people from owning land; the Protector ensures that anyone he doesn't like, doesn't get it, and the new player is forced to either toady up to one of the powers that be or get exiled to the back end of nowhere. This is an essentially unfair system that exploits the need for a common canon to the benefit of people with more NS than others. While some may argue for or against, no one can argue that it is inherently authoritarian to be able to lock out all the players you don't like out of the vast majority of the world map. This is just one more device that keeps the number of new players low, and allows veteran players to exploit those weaker and newer than themselves.

 

 

In short; it's time to get rid of Protectorates.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello everyone. I am posting this topic today to put forth to the community that the time for protectorates as a literary and gaming device in CNRP has come to an end.

I don't think so.

Protectorates are essentially devices used to keep people from owning land; the Protector ensures that anyone he doesn't like, doesn't get it, and the new player is forced to either toady up to one of the powers that be or get exiled to the back end of nowhere.

A very accurate analysis of what should by now be obvious.

This is an essentially unfair system that exploits the need for a common canon to the benefit of people with more NS than others.

So is that I can declare war on you, or that I can conduct spyrolls against you, as well as that I could assassinate your characters. The implications of a common canon and of basing stats on ingame nations. Two rather basic principles in CNRP, I would say.

While some may argue for or against, no one can argue that it is inherently authoritarian to be able to lock out all the players you don't like out of the vast majority of the world map.

Who gives a damn whether it is authoritarian or not? It's restrictive and serves its purpose.

This is just one more device that keeps the number of new players low, and allows veteran players to exploit those weaker and newer than themselves.

There are so many more things that give older players an advantage. It isn't that hard to just up and friendly ask before getting a nation. Otherwhise, there always is a way to roll you if you piss of neighbours. We are just saving ourselves the headache for the Rotas and ishabads.
 

In short; it's time to get rid of Protectorates.

No. Protectorates are good.

Protectorates stop land hogs from taking white space.  As long as you aren't a dick, you'll get the land you ask for.

This too.

This thread is unoriginal and a good few tried to argue this already before you did. You see where it ended. This thread is bad and you should feel bad.
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Protectorates stop land hogs from taking white space.  As long as you aren't a dick, you'll get the land you ask for.  

 

Protectorates enforced by land hogs, who consider it an extension of their territory. This is like setting the fox to watch the hen house and expecting to have any eggs or hens left when you return. The community rule of claiming what's in your actual land range is usually good enough to keep brand new 'expansionists' from taking over. Where it's not, there is another way; it doesn't have to be the private property of a player who may or may not allow you the territory simply because they like you/don't like you; OOC issues and popularity contests should not have an effect on the game.

 

 

 

Edit: And yes, this is directly tied to being denied New Zealand by Triyun awhile back for ooc reasons. I'm willing to abide by canon, on most every issue, but not this one. If you have an issue with that, you can say so here, as long and as loud as you wish. And Evangeline, just because the tyranny in the system benefits you at the moment, this doesn't change the key characteristic of it; it is unfair and authoritarian, and I won't be quiet about the matter.

Edited by Margrave
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OOC reasons for rejecting protectorates as far as I am aware are solely based on past IC experiences.  For example if I say rolled Melech tomorrow and turned his land to white space.  Then Melech wanted to roll back into that land with a high confidence interval he would be the exact same nation he got rolled as, then I'm inclined to reject it.  That's common sense and something that the alternative is annexation not more white space.  So no.  

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I'd debate you on that, but I am not willing to entertain whether you have been a just and beneficent monarch; I'm against the very system which allows you to dispose of, as you like, the vast majority of the white space on the map.

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OOC reasons for rejecting protectorates as far as I am aware are solely based on past IC experiences.  For example if I say rolled Melech tomorrow and turned his land to white space.  Then Melech wanted to roll back into that land with a high confidence interval he would be the exact same nation he got rolled as, then I'm inclined to reject it.  That's common sense and something that the alternative is annexation not more white space.  So no.  

Oh, come on. Marscuria isn't that bad. And he'd just be Marscurian Uganda or whatever, being not any less Marscurian than he is in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.

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Random example given to prove a point, rather than rehash a politically controversial one .  Players should be able to use force to dispose of regimes they find unpalatable through IC action and retain the ability to ensure that they don't insta respawn in the same place without having to annex the land.  America didn't annex Germany or Iraq but we made sure the Nazi and Baathist party didn't win any elections.  That's to the extent 'OOC' reasoning is employed, it is employed, at least in the case Margrave is concerned, same with previous people who've brought up this objection.  

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Random example given to prove a point, rather than rehash a politically controversial one .  Players should be able to use force to dispose of regimes they find unpalatable through IC action and retain the ability to ensure that they don't insta respawn in the same place without having to annex the land.  America didn't annex Germany or Iraq but we made sure the Nazi and Baathist party didn't win any elections.  That's to the extent 'OOC' reasoning is employed, it is employed, at least in the case Margrave is concerned, same with previous people who've brought up this objection.  

Comparing myself, Rota, Maelstrom, or any of the other's who've 'tried' this to Baathists or Nazi's is abit sub par, don't you think?

 

 

But that's irrelevant. I don't believe the matter belongs within the sphere of your judgment, simply put, so, thus this conversation.

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I am allowed to RP the exact type of nation I wish to, in land originally owned by one of the people who rolled me in the first place, and have good relations with them, you did not request land, you made an IC post without having it approved, do not believe you are receiving special treatment, as triyun as done the same thing multiple times to just about anyone who has claimed land without asking first.

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Comparing myself, Rota, Maelstrom, or any of the other's who've 'tried' this to Baathists or Nazi's is abit sub par, don't you think?

 

 

But that's irrelevant. I don't believe the matter belongs within the sphere of your judgment, simply put, so, thus this conversation.

 

Again examples, Baathist and Nazis are an example of political parties in countries where one nation has occupied, the United States, but not annexed the country.  The US government then had an active policy of working to prevent the post-occupation Government of Germany and Iraq from taking on the same characteristics of the regime it fought a war to replace.  That is the same policy which I apply to protectorates.  I will not permit nations which I've previously found necessary to eliminate, reform in the same areas, unless I see them being truly reformed to be politically acceptable (think Cochin's Cochin, or Eva's Japan) from retaking form instead of something I'll just roll again.  I apply a pretty fair level of pattern recognition.  I give people second sometimes third chances.  In your case, you've RPed the same national group over and over again, I've rolled i once.  I'm not about to let it reform in my sphere. If you want to dispel Tianxia hegemony from the Pacific, the only way to do so is to raise an army and attack it, If protectorates didn't exist I'd just annex it and give independence to people who have a good case like Eva did with Japan.

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Again examples, Baathist and Nazis are an example of political parties in countries where one nation has occupied, the United States, but not annexed the country.  The US government then had an active policy of working to prevent the post-occupation Government of Germany and Iraq from taking on the same characteristics of the regime it fought a war to replace.  That is the same policy which I apply to protectorates.  I will not permit nations which I've previously found necessary to eliminate, reform in the same areas, unless I see them being truly reformed to be politically acceptable (think Cochin's Cochin, or Eva's Japan) from retaking form instead of something I'll just roll again.  I apply a pretty fair level of pattern recognition.  I give people second sometimes third chances.  In your case, you've RPed the same national group over and over again, I've rolled i once.  I'm not about to let it reform in my sphere. If you want to dispel Tianxia hegemony from the Pacific, the only way to do so is to raise an army and attack it, If protectorates didn't exist I'd just annex it and give independence to people who have a good case like Eva did with Japan.


Except im not playing the same national group, the same type of government, or the same anything.
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This one you just made, was made without permission, and thus was dealt with as political extremists are dealt with.  I'm disinclined to do favors for people who know the rules and ask then to circumvent them, and even more skeptical of people who try to change a rule solely when it suits them.  

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The protectorate rules came about as a means of keeping the village idiots off our lawns. It is a sad fact of CNRP that nations full of Germans pop up in the middle of the darned places, almost like genital warts.


To be fair, in my two or three years of being here I have never seen a German nation outside of Germany.
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That's because you came when protectorates were already there and the wars to contain Germany had already been won, it was more akin to the 1900 Ottoman Empire.

 

Even still you had a line of Germans from Brussels to Western Mongolia towards the original point where you got there.  When I liberated Asia from pernicious foreign influence (I'm not counting Cochin or Kankou's Korea in this, cause I see where they were coming from just had political differences).  I had to immediately knock out fascist Japanese in Taiwan, land in China, knock out an Indian regime lead by Megan Fox, which somehow dominated China.  I then had to pivot South, knock out a 'Fem Dom' land.  Then I had to kick out a Irish queen with somehow a Finnish majority (even though there are like 6 people in Finland total) from Manchuria.  Then after the Cochin war, when Vektor deepened his forcing Germanic language on Central Asia, I had to chase him out of half of central Asia.  Then we had multiple genocides in Indonesia by Kankou and Rota including German 'Nozis'.  When there wasn't a responsible leader in Asia, Mael built a cult which totally bastardizes the Chinese creation myth of dragons and its deeper subtext into a furry wet dream (or is it scaly), which allowed Keshav's whole Indian thing in the first place, Sumer conspired with that weird dude I can't remember the name of (nika?) to commit genocide across south and north east Asia to kill chinese and south east asians off to replace them with Japanese and Germans.  And Sumer had Aryans running Mongolia.   And Biohazard troll genocided Japan.  

 

I can't speak for people on other continents, but that is the history of Asia, and why Tianxia has an active policy of maintaining a protective military hegemony over the continent and the greater Indo Pacific Region.  I imagine though if you asked TBM about Africa and what he's encountered, or what Cent's seen happen in Europe there would be a lot of similar things.  There is a very long historical reason we hold these territories and just don't let anyone get their hands on them to do whatever they want.  You get rid of protectorates it will be annexation.  

 

Of course if we annex, we'll give some things away but people would have to know even more to request land and you'll just make the standard higher for noobs to get the land, where the people I'd deny I'd deny anyways.  

Edited by Triyun
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That's because you came when protectorates were already there and the wars to contain Germany had already been won, it was more akin to the 1900 Ottoman Empire.

 

Even still you had a line of Germans from Brussels to Western Mongolia towards the original point where you got there.  When I liberated Asia from pernicious foreign influence (I'm not counting Cochin or Kankou's Korea in this, cause I see where they were coming from just had political differences).  I had to immediately knock out fascist Japanese in Taiwan, land in China, knock out an Indian regime lead by Megan Fox, which somehow dominated China.  I then had to pivot South, knock out a 'Fem Dom' land.  Then I had to kick out a Irish queen with somehow a Finnish majority (even though there are like 6 people in Finland total) from Manchuria.  Then after the Cochin war, when Vektor deepened his forcing Germanic language on Central Asia, I had to chase him out of half of central Asia.  Then we had multiple genocides in Indonesia by Kankou and Rota including German 'Nozis'.  When there wasn't a responsible leader in Asia, Mael built a cult which totally bastardizes the Chinese creation myth of dragons and its deeper subtext into a furry wet dream (or is it scaly), which allowed Keshav's whole Indian thing in the first place, Sumer conspired with that weird dude I can't remember the name of (nika?) to commit genocide across south and north east Asia to kill chinese and south east asians off to replace them with Japanese and Germans.  And Sumer had Aryans running Mongolia.   [b]And Biohazard troll genocided Japan. [/b]

 

I can't speak for people on other continents, but that is the history of Asia, and why Tianxia has an active policy of maintaining a protective military hegemony over the continent and the greater Indo Pacific Region.  I imagine though if you asked TBM about Africa and what he's encountered, or what Cent's seen happen in Europe there would be a lot of similar things.  There is a very long historical reason we hold these territories and just don't let anyone get their hands on them to do whatever they want.  You get rid of protectorates it will be annexation.  

 

Of course if we annex, we'll give some things away but people would have to know even more to request land and you'll just make the standard higher for noobs to get the land, where the people I'd deny I'd deny anyways.  

s/o to my nigga Triyun, I feel the love 

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That's because you came when protectorates were already there and the wars to contain Germany had already been won, it was more akin to the 1900 Ottoman Empire.

 I imagine though if you asked TBM about Africa and what he's encountered, or what Cent's seen happen in Europe there would be a lot of similar things.  There is a very long historical reason we hold these territories and just don't let anyone get their hands on them to do whatever they want.  You get rid of protectorates it will be annexation.  

 

Germans everywhere.

 

Worst one I can recall was Rota, though he/she wasn't rping a german.

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That's because you came when protectorates were already there and the wars to contain Germany had already been won, it was more akin to the 1900 Ottoman Empire.

 

Even still you had a line of Germans from Brussels to Western Mongolia towards the original point where you got there.  When I liberated Asia from pernicious foreign influence (I'm not counting Cochin or Kankou's Korea in this, cause I see where they were coming from just had political differences).  I had to immediately knock out fascist Japanese in Taiwan, land in China, knock out an Indian regime lead by Megan Fox, which somehow dominated China.  I then had to pivot South, knock out a 'Fem Dom' land.  Then I had to kick out a Irish queen with somehow a Finnish majority (even though there are like 6 people in Finland total) from Manchuria.  Then after the Cochin war, when Vektor deepened his forcing Germanic language on Central Asia, I had to chase him out of half of central Asia.  Then we had multiple genocides in Indonesia by Kankou and Rota including German 'Nozis'.  When there wasn't a responsible leader in Asia, Mael built a cult which totally bastardizes the Chinese creation myth of dragons and its deeper subtext into a furry wet dream (or is it scaly), which allowed Keshav's whole Indian thing in the first place, Sumer conspired with that weird dude I can't remember the name of (nika?) to commit genocide across south and north east Asia to kill chinese and south east asians off to replace them with Japanese and Germans.  And Sumer had Aryans running Mongolia.   And Biohazard troll genocided Japan.  

 

I can't speak for people on other continents, but that is the history of Asia, and why Tianxia has an active policy of maintaining a protective military hegemony over the continent and the greater Indo Pacific Region.  I imagine though if you asked TBM about Africa and what he's encountered, or what Cent's seen happen in Europe there would be a lot of similar things.  There is a very long historical reason we hold these territories and just don't let anyone get their hands on them to do whatever they want.  You get rid of protectorates it will be annexation.  

 

Of course if we annex, we'll give some things away but people would have to know even more to request land and you'll just make the standard higher for noobs to get the land, where the people I'd deny I'd deny anyways.  

 

I have been getting deja vu watching the news the past week and I had no idea why...  You remind me of a Putin.

 

But yes, I didn't really know what was going on when I first joined so those are good points (as opposed me to understanding everything now right?). 

 

Anyway, I think protectorates aren't bad. They are not fun or exactly realistic, but they work.

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I have been getting deja vu watching the news the past week and I had no idea why...  You remind me of a Putin.

 

But yes, I didn't really know what was going on when I first joined so those are good points (as opposed me to understanding everything now right?). 

 

Anyway, I think protectorates aren't bad. They are not fun or exactly realistic, but they work.

Evicting retards isn't fun either. Nor is it realistic that after beating up a country, the victorious power doesn't have any influence on the next regime. Be it the imposition of pro-athenian kings in Macedonia by Athens in ancient Greece, the denazification programme and establishment of two German states post-WWII or the continued US presence in Afghanistan. There should be enough precedent to show that a continued military occupation, despite no outright annexation, in order to establish friendly structures is nothing uncommon.

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Exactly, resorting to personal insults like that is inappropriate, especially while events are happening.  You need to class it up or take a step back if you think that a role someone plays in a simulation role play is at all the same as actually equivalent to actual life and death geopolitical events.  We are playing the roles of political leaders, but that is in a story.  

 

Now you could argue Yuan Jia the character is equivalent to Putin or Tianxia the State is acting like the Russian Federation.  You'd be wrong but you could argue that.  Putin's trying to annex territory with a country in violation of a treaty Russia signed with Ukraine.  I'm talking about imposing a friendly regime and ensuring the old one doesn't come right back.  Tianxia never signed a treaty saying it wouldn't make a move for New Zealand's territory if the NZ state collapsed.    If I attacked Russia to claim Mascuria as my historical dependency even though I've signed a treaty of non-aggression with Russia, that would be what Putin is doing.  

Edited by Triyun
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Evicting retards isn't fun either. Nor is it realistic that after beating up a country, the victorious power doesn't have any influence on the next regime. Be it the imposition of pro-athenian kings in Macedonia by Athens in ancient Greece, the denazification programme and establishment of two German states post-WWII or the continued US presence in Afghanistan. There should be enough precedent to show that a continued military occupation, despite no outright annexation, in order to establish friendly structures is nothing uncommon.

  

Exactly, resorting to personal insults like that is inappropriate, especially while events are happening.  You need to class it up or take a step back if you think that a role someone plays in a simulation role play is at all the same as actually equivalent to actual life and death geopolitical events.  We are playing the roles of political leaders, but that is in a story.  
 
Now you could argue Yuan Jia the character is equivalent to Putin or Tianxia the State is acting like the Russian Federation.  You'd be wrong but you could argue that.  Putin's trying to annex territory with a country in violation of a treaty Russia signed with Ukraine.  I'm talking about imposing a friendly regime and ensuring the old one doesn't come right back.  Tianxia never signed a treaty saying it wouldn't make a move for New Zealand's territory if the NZ state collapsed.    If I attacked Russia to claim Mascuria as my historical dependency even though I've signed a treaty of non-aggression with Russia, that would be what Putin is doing.


Oh I didn't mean it as an insult. Mearly an observation of two people who handle things similarly and justify their actions in similar ways as well..... I'm just trying to find out who Obama is..... Melech is ironically Mongolia in my opinion.
Also you should tell your pawn not to use terms like "retarded" to be derogatory.

I think everyone likes the protectorate system.
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Oh I didn't mean it as an insult. Mearly an observation of two people who handle things similarly and justify their actions in similar ways as well..... I'm just trying to find out who Obama is..... Melech is ironically Mongolia in my opinion.
Also you should tell your pawn not to use terms like "retarded" to be derogatory.

Cba. Maybe if you'd actually put in the effort to educate yourself on politics you are talking about, then I put in the effort to be politically correct.

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