Merger Announcement

[hartfw]

Heh.

If we were looking at an easy war, you should find this understandable because we had gotten curbstomped by Specify Other twice earlier this round; the first time, getting paired with a training alliance and with our pants down, the second time, getting attacked only 5 days after the last war and getting nuked while not holding nukes ourselves. When we attempted to counter Specify Other, SO made the deliberate effort to declare nukers on our non-nuclear nations and make our re-building even harder. Skia currently has about 7 members, out of an original deployment of 18 members. There is a reason for this. If our war had failed, the alliance would most likely have to disband, and this time, for real and permanently.

The original plan was to go after Misfits with War Doves, and Samwise is correct, I originally proposed going after Misfits with War Doves; it would have been a fun war since at the time War Doves and Les Fleurs du Mal (this is the proper name of the alliance, I would ask that you call it by that name) would have been vaguely an up-declare against Misfits.

Bombuator ended up calling around a similar time to us, and he wanted me to help us attack Warriors instead. I suggested he talk to Samwise and for us to add Warriors into the requisite war, and we ended up putting NDO, Warriors, and Misfits into the same war.

===

 

As far as accusations of down-declares go, it was an ANS down-declare, a near-parity declare in total NS, and a . This is NGW's post, where he lists the pre-war stats

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/117879-merger-announcement/#entry3156585

The stats NGW should have included as well should have been infra levels, and when I had originally recorded the data, Warriors + Misfits had an infra level, according to my calculations, having about 120-129k infra total, while our side had only 110k infra total. So it was an infra updeclare, and our blitz was screwed up with only 17% of Warriors and Misfits being sent into anarchy at the time.

 

===

 

With regards to the Protectorate crap; I thought it would have been funny to falsely list Warriors as our protector at the time, especially since we were planning on hitting them in about 72 hours. I like these kinds of tricks and traps, but I don't intend to cause undue offense.

I would be fine if, say, Specify Other were stuck handling junk PMs asking about a protectorate agreement with LFDM 2 days before we launched an up-declare and smashed them, but I have no special beef with Warriors. You hit Hershey's alliance last round 3 days out of war, but honestly their first war was rather easy and most hostilities had ended 3 days after the war started.

I do note of course that in PM, after accusing you of not having a sense of fun and taking out the protectorate agreement, you said that you were okay and fine with me so this volte-face is a bit of a surprise.

I'm hereby apologizing to you on mine and Skia's behalf for the fake protectorate agreement and if you want to discuss this further, I'm always on IRC and we can set a time.

With regards to Misfits, no formal protectorate agreement was made and our nations were instructed to ghost Misfits, not seek protection with Misfits, until we could find a time to reform.

I have worked together in the past with Misfits, and we have been collegial in the past. I am not wholly happy with the way you hit War Doves earlier this round (packing them in with third-rate alliances and focusing them instead of others). I thank you for allowing our members to ghost you at the time, and I acknowledge that it is a show of bad form to participate in this joint attack on your nations. I acknowledge that I am at fault for the improprieties I am involved with by attacking you and I am apologizing for that. As with Warriors, if you ever want to talk this out, I am usually on IRC and I am willing to talk through these issues with you.

 

===

Paul... were you seriously considering raiding the remnants of Mume, an alliance that your friends in SO have rolled twice in not particularly an honorable fashion? FYI, you don't even need XP; you had enough wars to gain XP on all your nations, and we don't have substantial amounts of land. Is there some other issue I should be aware of?

 

Oh yeah, now I remember.  The war when 18 SO nations hit 18 Mume nations that had higher ANS and higher infra.  You built poorly, forgetting warchests.  In no way was it a down declare, just a war against an opponent that had been so focused on building large nations that they forgot that being large isn't actually of value if you cannot use your size.

 

Here is the original war stats again:

 

 

For those interested in facts:

 

Here is the list of nations and infra for the Specify other versus Mume side fo this war:

 

Specify Other  /  Mume

18 nations total have attacked 18 Mume Nations

Average Infra at time fo declare:  SO 1283.88  Mume 1381.08

Nations above 1500: SO 3  Mume 1 

Nations at 1499.99: SO 3 Mume  7

Nations at 1399: SO 1 Mume 4

Nations at 1299: SO 4 Mume 2

Nations at 1199: So 1 Mume 2

Nations at 1149: So 0 Mume 1

Nations at 1100/1099: So 2 Mume 1

Nations at 1049: So 1 Mume 0

Nations at 999: So 1 Mume 0

Nations at 899: So 1 Mume 0

Nations at 800: So 1 Mume 0

 

 

If AFt views it as a down declare, I can look and see if they have a legitimate gripe.  But based upon infra, and nations involved, I find it funny that Mume who had the highest ANS of any alliance and ~100 more infra on average then the equal number of nations attacking then --  out numbering SO at 1499+ by 8 to 6 and at 1399+ by 12 to 7 (they were outnumbered above 1499 3 to 1 tobe fair) are saying it was a down declare.

 

If nukes were being used to clobber an unready victim I could understand pointing to that as an unfair advantage, it would be. But right now it is 18 nations not firing nukes against 18 nations that for whatever reason felt it was prudent to buy more infra in general and not buy any military or start swapping in gc's.

 

The only way on those stats this side of the war looks like a down declare is that Mume wasn't given a warning.

 

And here was your own take on the second war:

 

 

Now, I am strictly not complaining, but I want it to be on the record that you totally smashed us last time, I had to donate to put our nations back together, and we peaced out on the 2nd, and you attacked us again on the 6th.

At least your blitz wasn't so excellent as it was last time, and you actually did an updeclare and included a decent alliance this time (Hellas).

 

So, our two wars that were dishonorable attacks on poor Mume were against more ANS and an updeclare.  

You can keep making excuses and blaming others, but the only one destroying an alliance is you, from within.

Edited August 8, 2013 by hartfw

[KingBilly1]

I got lost somewhere at the top of the page :P

For those that don't know, I am dipxhitman

[scytale]

I'm going to break my self imposed radio silence for this round to say that I'm completely lost.  There seems to be something about mume that has something to do with this war that I'm not getting.  Can someone get me a tl;dr version?

[hartfw]

I'm going to break my self imposed radio silence for this round to say that I'm completely lost.  There seems to be something about mume that has something to do with this war that I'm not getting.  Can someone get me a tl;dr version?

 

1) Mume (now Skia) had listed it was protected by the Warriors, then declared on them (they weren't).

2) Mume (now Skia) says if they don't have a war they would win, they would disband for real because the round's been too rough so far (due to S.O.) in response to if this was a down declare.

[Sarkin]

 If we were looking at an easy war, you should find this understandable because we had gotten curbstomped by Specify Other twice earlier this round

 

You were curbstomped because you were awful. Mume was poorly built and thoroughly unprepared. The alliance was designed with a completely unrealistic foreign policy strategy. Also, it goes without saying that the leadership was terrible.

 

...getting attacked only 5 days after the last war and getting nuked while not holding nukes ourselves

 

You write this as though we weren't also coming off of the exact same war. hartfw already highlighted your hypocrisy here, but if you wanted a longer delay between the wars, or for us to be too damaged to obtain nukes before the second war, you should've done one of the following three things:

 

- Prepared better (or, hell, at all) for war

- Fought better (or, hell, at all) in the first war

- Not gone around telling everyone who would listen about your secret plans to destroy us (this goes back to that leadership thing I mentioned earlier)

 

 When we attempted to counter Specify Other, SO made the deliberate effort to declare nukers on our non-nuclear nations and make our re-building even harder.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that we held an obligation to our targets to make their lives easier. Gee whiz, I thought we were trying to make your lives harder.

 

 Les Fleurs du Mal (this is the proper name of the alliance, I would ask that you call it by that name)

 

This is the silliest thing. If that's the proper name, why didn't you actually name it that in the game? What, you didn't trust your members to spell it? Or to, I dunno, copy and paste it? Also: no.

 

 With regards to the Protectorate crap; I thought it would have been funny to falsely list Warriors as our protector at the time, especially since we were planning on hitting them in about 72 hours. I like these kinds of tricks and traps, but I don't intend to cause undue offense.

 

You're ridiculous. "I thought it would be funny to ward off attacks from other alliances by falsely invoking the protection of an alliance that I'm planning on attacking in a couple of days! In no way, shape, or form could I have possibly foreseen the negative reactions this plan has drawn! Allow me to apologize for your lack of appreciation for my sparkling wit!"

 

 With regards to Misfits, no formal protectorate agreement was made and our nations were instructed to ghost Misfits, not seek protection with Misfits, until we could find a time to reform.

 

I'm not sure what your long-term plans are, but alienating major alliance after major alliance was probably a bad idea. Far be it from me, however, to impugn the strategic genius of Inst, Leader Extraordinaire! 

 

 Hi Auctor, how's destroying alliances going for you today?

 

Although I'm not Auctor, I will say that it's going swimmingly. If this was meant to be some sort of verbal jab, well, you should probably check the stats first next time.

 

 Given how rare my tears are, they probably taste wonderful. Or they taste like !@#$. I wouldn't know.

 

"I'm not crying! I don't cry! I'm a man! I'm manly! Do you understand the point I'm trying to make here!? I never cry because I'm super cool and shut up!"

[Prozenz]

I'm going to break my self imposed radio silence for this round to say that I'm completely lost.  There seems to be something about mume that has something to do with this war that I'm not getting.  Can someone get me a tl;dr version?

They've talked about a poor skia, scy. Paul, if you don't want to raid them, we will. :)

FYI, our first war with WD is a good match up on the upper tier, however, we're choose to build our military and they're choose to build their infra and eco wonder. So don't blame us when we used our MP and nuke your precious pixel.

[yung flow]

Can I just get a beer this is dumb.

[dewe48]

Can I just get a beer this is dumb.

I've had a few drinks so I'll share with you.  I didn't read any of this stuff.  All I know is I'll call out SirCorgi.  Three days of war, and all he did was 1 nuke and 2 cruise missles.  Good thing I spied away his other 6 nukes.  No balls.  At least do an underdog attack.  Come on.  vespassianus  can tell you, I'm doing 2 underdogs a day.  woooooo  hoooooooo

Edited August 9, 2013 by dewe48

[Instr]

The fact that I know you is why I am posting about the whole thing. I know that you like to control everything and you think that you are clever. You think you can manipulate external politics and policies of other AAs by using such tactics. For these reasons I highly doubt that your subterfuge was an innocent prank but rather some ill advised strategic attempt of some kind.

Just because you can't figure out what the goal doesn't mean it's not there. You have a new AA; you know SO, and for that matter, certain other alliances (shall I log dump, Paul?) are threatening to blow you up because you're not entertaining their threats, and you need some level of coverage to the point that you can avoid getting declared on until the point where you go to war, while not giving away your target.

Best course of action? Form 24 hours before update, then declare your target as your protector, then attack them 24 hours later. A bit cheeky, true, but it works, until you bitch about it and try to turn it into the worst thing that happened in TE since Confusion wrecked OP, LE, and PS in Round 16.

[hartfw]

Just because you can't figure out what the goal doesn't mean it's not there. You have a new AA; you know SO, and for that matter, certain other alliances (shall I log dump, Paul?) are threatening to blow you up because you're not entertaining their threats, and you need some level of coverage to the point that you can avoid getting declared on until the point where you go to war, while not giving away your target.

Best course of action? Form 24 hours before update, then declare your target as your protector, then attack them 24 hours later. A bit cheeky, true, but it works, until you bitch about it and try to turn it into the worst thing that happened in TE since Confusion wrecked OP, LE, and PS in Round 16. 

 

Entertaining SO's threats?  I'm curious to hear more about this, as it is the first I have so far. I'm not sure why we are being repeatedly being used as an excuse for this.

[Auctor]

I take exception to the idea that anyone can even really "know" Specify Other. It's just so confusing.

[Schad]

This is confusing. Inst, you are confusing. Confusion is no long Confusion, which is confusing. 

[KingBilly1]

Just because you can't figure out what the goal doesn't mean it's not there. You have a new AA; you know SO, and for that matter, certain other alliances (shall I log dump, Paul?) are threatening to blow you up because you're not entertaining their threats, and you need some level of coverage to the point that you can avoid getting declared on until the point where you go to war, while not giving away your target.

Best course of action? Form 24 hours before update, then declare your target as your protector, then attack them 24 hours later. A bit cheeky, true, but it works, until you bitch about it and try to turn it into the worst thing that happened in TE since Confusion wrecked OP, LE, and PS in Round 16.

Where is confusion?... I haven't heard from him in over a month!
Psssst Marcus, kill!!! Haha

[KingBilly1]

I've had a few drinks so I'll share with you.  I didn't read any of this stuff.  All I know is I'll call out [font=Verdana, arial, 'san-serif']SirCorgi.  Three days of war, and all he did was 1 nuke and 2 cruise missles.  Good thing I spied away his other 6 nukes.  No balls.  At least do an underdog attack.  Come on.  [/font][font=Verdana, arial, 'san-serif']vespassianus  can tell you, I'm doing 2 underdogs a day.  woooooo  hoooooooo[/font]

Good old underdog attacks... I love when you destroy half of the standard loss amounts :p

[smontag]

There's nothing those 3 lunatics love more than a high casualty war :)

i heard they like boobies a lot and beer

[Jericthegreat]

you think Misfits gave us the same treatment shortly after we were paired with them against TPC? where most of the nations turtled up (yes we watch stats too) RE put up one hell of a fight. I know on my end i was basically fighting 3 on one that war because my partners wernt doing anything to fend off the attacks. the day we were engaged most of us were in rebuild mode, trade rings and such changed to increase the effect of a rebuild, stop whining and just fight. this is TE after all. War, is the ONLY option.

[KingBilly1]

So what you are saying is we(Misfits) turtled the war with TPC? I can assure you we put in a lot of effort.... I think during that war TPC's defensive slots were filled due to the numbers on our side.
I was the only Misfit that 'turtled' and the only reason for that was bill lock, I made a few economic mistakes and paid the price for it.

Edit: We have 91 wars ongoing(defensive and offensive combined), that is an average of 2 wars per Misfit nation. And also a few raids still going.

Arguing about this is not going to solve anything, what happened, happened.... Let's get on with it :)

Edited August 9, 2013 by EddyH

[yung flow]

As I said. On with the beers!!!

[White Chocolate]

Heh.
 

With regards to the Protectorate crap; I thought it would have been funny to falsely list Warriors as our protector at the time, especially since we were planning on hitting them in about 72 hours. I like these kinds of tricks and traps, but I don't intend to cause undue offense.
 

The false listing of Warriors as a protector is a shame on us sort of thing.  I can see that as a tactic to try to keep a small alliance safe.

 

The turning around and attacking the group listed as a protector, however, is another thing entirely.  Then you go and admit upfront and in public that this was the plan the entire time?  My dear, that is your third mistake.

 

My thought on the matter is to take all this at face value regardless, pretend there was really a protection deal and that the protected alliance really did double cross the one doing the protection and as a result, act accordingly.

 

Enjoy.

Edited August 10, 2013 by White Chocolate

[Samwise]

I can't believe I read this thread in it's entirety. XD Some shout outs.

 

As I've said the nukes and avg NS are the biggest tells of war equity. From WD's numbers:

NDO + Hellas + War Doves: Average NS: 7,498, Total Nukes: 90

Warriors + Misfits: Average NS: 6,723, Total Nukes: 92

 

That doesn't look too bad.

 

Those numbers do not include Skia's however, and even NOW their avg ns is about 10,000. They had plenty of nukes as well. Skia added in means about 1000ans more, more nuke nations, many more nukes, etc. So while it's not a massive down declare or anything, let's not pretend it was a straight up even war either. Use the post-blitz attack numbers, and it's worse of course, that goes without saying.

 

If you want to get fancy though, look at the tiers and start at the top:

 

NDO + Hellas + WD Infra Stats:
4,000+ - 1
3,500 - 3,900 - 0
3,000 - 3,400 - 6
2,500 - 2,900 - 5

Tot: 12

Again, not including Skia.

 

Warriors + Misfits Infra Stats:
4,000+ - 0
3,500 - 3,900 - 1
3,000 - 3,400 - 3
2,500 - 2,900 - 3

Tot: 7

 

Y'all attacked in groups of 3 attacking 3, so start at the top and work your way down. Nearly every group of three was a significant down declare on whoever they collectively hit. It's only when you get down towards the bottom are going to see even wars or possible updeclares.

 

I agree with you. The avg NS difference was significant, however, Warriors + Misfits had numbers on us, and Misfits had quite a few inactive micros that brought that down. Not saying War Doves didn't bring down "our" sides avg NS as well, but Misfits are almost double our size as far as membership goes.

 

As for the infra, if you include from 2,000 and up:

 

Warriors + Misfits Infra Stats:
4,000+ - 0
3,500 - 3,900 - 1
3,000 - 3,400 - 3
2,500 - 2,900 - 3
2,000 - 2,400 - 14

Total: 21

 

NDO + Hellas + WD Infra Stats:
4,000+ - 1
3,500 - 3,900 - 0
3,000 - 3,400 - 6
2,500 - 2,900 - 5
2,000 - 2,400 - 12

Total: 24

 

I do agree that there was an advantage there, however, we both know that nukes and the opportunity for coordination also come into play with infra numbers at the top. (BTW, the only coordination I've seen this whole war was from Warriors. :awesome:) Either way, yes, there is an advantage there.

 

You act as though we wouldn't have been declared on within days? I mean look at this stupid war? You didn't give us time to rebuild. Regardless of our declare we would have been hit shortly. Isn't that what everyone does in TE? beat the next guy to declaring first, giving yourself the upper advantage. As all you CN TE people flame about left and right. WAR WAR WAR, now I can't even get you to hush up about something 2 weeks ago. (That obviously still bothers you by the look of this declare)

 

What's hilarious to me is that you're upset for the same reasons I was upset when you hit us. What you told me was:

1. It's TE. Declare or be declared.

2. Simmer down, Samwise.

 

So in turn, simmer down and it's TE. Yes, I'm still bothered by the way you treated my alliance, however, I'm still bothered by the fact NDO hit us days after that, and I'm willing to live and let live. Like everything else, I'll get over it. Chalk this up to declare or be declared logic.

 

They've talked about a poor skia, scy. Paul, if you don't want to raid them, we will. :)

FYI, our first war with WD is a good match up on the upper tier, however, we're choose to build our military and they're choose to build their infra and eco wonder. So don't blame us when we used our MP and nuke your precious pixel.

 

I'm not blaming you. I actually said something to the affect of "Max better get nuclear or that's going to get out of hand quickly." That was before you guys bought MP's. :P I'm glad that someone finally woke him up this round.

 

Good old underdog attacks... I love when you destroy half of the standard loss amounts :P

 

Don't knock underdog attacks. Sometimes it's the only way I can destroy anything. ;_;

 

The false listing of Warriors as a protector is a shame on us sort of thing.  I can see that as a tactic to try to keep a small alliance safe.

 

The turning around and attacking the group listed as a protector, however, is another thing entirely.  Then you go and admit upfront and in public that this was the plan the entire time?  My dear, that is your third mistake.

 

My thought on the matter is to take all this at face value regardless, pretend there was really a protection deal and that the protected alliance really did double cross the one doing the protection and as a result, act accordingly.

 

Enjoy.

 

Classy as always, Sylvia. ^_^

[bombuator]

Peace has been agreed to 10/11 Update! 

Good luck rebuilding guys!

[Polarbear]

mmm i go out of town with friends for a week and come back to rubble :)  I would like to give a shout out to the top 2 nations of wardoves (Maximum and One Nuclear Weapon) who in their infinite bravery double teamed a nation half their size, with no nukes (thanks for the ones i ate they were yummy)  who was out of town and reduced me to rubble.  Thanks wish i was here to put up the fight

[RoadRash]

mmm i go out of town with friends for a week and come back to rubble :)  I would like to give a shout out to the top 2 nations of wardoves (Maximum and One Nuclear Weapon) who in their infinite bravery double teamed a nation half their size, with no nukes (thanks for the ones i ate they were yummy)  who was out of town and reduced me to rubble.  Thanks wish i was here to put up the fight

You should know better rl doesn't go well with cybernations lol
Hope you had a good time while you were gone remember for the next vacation plan it right after a war :)

[bombuator]

We destroyed a lot at the top! Our 3v3 accounted for 4/5 the top 5 losers  :awesome:

 

1. -17,119 Strength Change - Atienza of Manhattan Project - Red Team
2. -14,909 Strength Change - Dajobo of Disktopia - Yellow Team
3. -14,293 Strength Change - Innocence of Rapture - Red Team
4. -14,197 Strength Change - Nick Ghostwolf of Lacuna Corporation - Yellow Team
5. -13,843 Strength Change - bombuator of 8 Mile - Aqua Team

[Samwise]

mmm i go out of town with friends for a week and come back to rubble :)  I would like to give a shout out to the top 2 nations of wardoves (Maximum and One Nuclear Weapon) who in their infinite bravery double teamed a nation half their size, with no nukes (thanks for the ones i ate they were yummy)  who was out of town and reduced me to rubble.  Thanks wish i was here to put up the fight

 

Things are tough all over :smug: